Deism v. Atheism

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

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Patrick Degan
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Deism v. Atheism

Post by Patrick Degan »

Found this when I stumbled on a Deist site following a query regarding the American revolutionary essayist Thomas Paine and had to share this —with annotations, of course. You never can tell where a web-crawl will take you.

Just a whole boatload of sloppy reasoning and unfounded assumptions:
Peter Murphy wrote:Deism and Atheism
by Peter Murphy


The question that arises about nature is: is it a creation, eternal to nature, or an accident within nature. The Deist will maintain that it is a creation, but Deists will differ as to degree of involvement on the part of the Creator in the process. The atheist will counter that it is either eternal, or accidental. The final resolution of this problem will eventually be up to science to settle.

To begin, let us look at nature as an ever changing and shifting painting. Science attempts to understand what the paint and canvass is composed of, the relationship of the individual paints, and the brushstrokes that are involved in the final product. But, what about the painter? If one admits that nature is similar to a painting, than it is not too far a leap to conclude that a painter exists, or at least existed at one time.
Why does the "painting" that is the Universe require a painter? Or is it merely your interpretation that it is a "painting" that is wholly arbitrary? We've heard this one before. It was called the Watchmaker Argument and is just as arbitrary in its assumption that the Universe required a "maker". It also begs the question as to where the "maker" came from, what made him.
The atheist continually resorts to the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad verecundiam (appeal to modesty) when dealing with Deists or even theists. The appeal here is to science as an authority which cannot be challenged. Unfortunately, this appeal is plagued by its own problems.
No, science is not an "authority", it is a method for measuring and understanding the physical world. You have fundamentally misunderstood the concept, Mr. Murphy. And by the way, there is no such logical fallacy as "Appeal to Modesty".
First of all, science makes no claims about God one way or another, so it is not the scientists who are for the most part claiming God does not exist on the grounds that there is a lack of evidence, but the scientific layman asserting it.
Science makes no claims regarding God because God is an extraneous term. The Universe is perfectly explicable in terms of physical law without resort to invoking the involvement of a deity in either its creation or continued existence.
Second, science for all its great accomplishments is still in the infant stage, there is much about nature it simply does not know, even on this planet. So to conclude that a discipline, which has limitations here and now, somehow can conclude that something beyond its immediate ability to study is the final word, is logically speaking, a fallacy.
The fallacy here is yours, Mr. Murphy. It's called "Appeal to Ignorance".
Science itself is somewhat biased as well. It suffers from nearsightedness; what it cannot observe directly or indirectly, it ignores. Things like memory may have a basis in biology, but is it safe to conclude that only biology is at work here? No one has ever seen an emotion, or a memory; yet they exist. So it is not far-fetched to conclude that there is more to nature than what we observe in our own limited corner of it. Science has only touched the tip of the scientific iceberg -- as such, science cannot be used to dismiss the idea that a God may exist. If one cannot truly understand a grain of sand, then one cannot understand the beach.
We do indeed understand the physical and neurological roots behind emotions and memory in the human brain, Mr. Murphy. There is nothing mystical or occult about the workings of the cerebral cortex or how information is processed and stored, and later recalled. Memories and emotions do not have a separate existence apart from the functioning of the brain. They are not "ghosts" in the machine. And you again Appeal to Ignorance, Mr. Murphy. Science examines the results of an observed event. If its means of measurement improve or it observes repeated events which do not fit with the established data, its models are adjusted accordingly and its knowledge base expands.
So where does the Deist stand? The Deist recognizes the limitations of belief; but still possesses the courage to believe.
As you wish...
The belief in God in no more illogical than the belief in Extraterrestrial life forms. Nevertheless, despite the present lack of evidence for E.T. life forms, few scientists would outright dismiss them. If one accepts that E.T. life forms may exist, then one must conclude that such life forms could be far superior to us in knowledge and power -- if so, then God is in a sense, could be regarded as an E.T. life form as well. Or more accurately an Extradimensional life form. Such a being, or beings, cannot be dismissed as impossibilities.
Actually, belief in God is considerably more illogical than belief in extraterrestrials. The possibility of extraterrestrial life forms has at least the logical basis that, since life and intelligence arose on one planet (Earth), there is a nonzero chance that on a similar planet with similar geophysical characteristics and an environment hospitable to the arising of life, other intelligent species may evolve and may develop technology and civilisation. There is no evidence yet for such beings, but they are not outside the realm of possibility or probability. If a phenomenon happens once in one place, it is probable that it can and will happen somewhere else, even if in a slightly different form. No such evidence or logical theory underpins the hypothetical existence of a god or gods. No god has been observed on Earth, the testimony is vague at best if not outright fabricated, and no actual, credible evidence of physics-defying phenomena either in earlier epochs or contemporary times which would point to the existence of a supernatural being of any type has ever been found.
The atheist demands that the Deist, or theist, provide evidence for the existence of God.
Yes, it's called the "Burden of Proof". I'm sorry if that does not suit you, Mr. Murphy, but since it is you and other religionists that are making the claim for a supernatural deity, it's on you lot to actually prove the claim and cough up the evidence that puts the question beyond doubt. Don't like that? Too bad.
They continually resort to logical fallacies of their own, for example, a common one is the Petitio principii (begging the question) fallacy; it goes something like this: there is no God because we find no evidence of God in nature.
That is not a Begging the Question Fallacy, it is the default logical assumption: if no evidence for an alleged phenomenon can be found, it means said phenomenon in all probability does not exist. That changes only when evidence for a phenomenon is actually observed. Don't like that? Too bad.
But is this true? No. We presently do not know enough about nature to make such a conclusion, eventually, the possibility that there is a God could be proven.
Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy. Again.
The atheist has no evidence that the universe is eternal or accidental; they are assuming that scientific speculation somehow equals scientific fact. Obviously there is a great gap between speculation and fact to the rational mind.
Strawman Fallacy. Scientists speculate about lots of things, but they do not assign the quality "fact" to anything other than actual observed phenomena. Your view of scientists, Mr. Murphy, is a caricature at best and dishonest at worst.
We have the painting, but to dismiss that there is a painter is illogical, unless there is evidence that it is either an eternal painting or an accident. So far all science has offered is speculation based on drawing inferences from the available data [which is far from complete]; nevertheless, since the evidence is not complete, nor fully understood, sweeping generalizations by atheists on what exists and does not exist are groundless.
Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy yet again.
Atheists like to shift the burden of proof from themselves to their debating opponents; in short, the believer in God must prove God, but the atheist will not defend his position that the universe is either eternal or accidental. Often this tactic works, the believer will then try to make an argument for God, only to have the atheist demand that the believer first define God in some clear manner. Once the believer makes this mistake, he loses the debate. We are still in the process of understanding the painting, so trying to define the painter is doomed to failure; the believer must recognize this tactic and avoid it. Deists should feel free to openly state that there is absolutely no evidence against a Creator being, or a Creation, and that all skeptics have to offer is scientific speculation on very limited data.
The atheist does not have to prove a negative, and questions on whether the Universe is eternal or "accidental" are immaterial to the evident fact of its existence and the lack of evidence for the claimed existence of a "painter".
Deists believe there is something more; that is not unreasonable, it is very much human and rational. That "more" is God.
As you wish...
Deists are willing to wait for the answer and are keeping an open mind on the matter; it is the atheists, who fear waiting.
Really? If atheism can be successfully falsified, then by all means, do so. We've got time.
Simply put there is no evidence against God, nor is there evidence against a Creation [design].
Do you even understand what a Burden of Proof Fallacy is, Mr. Murphy? As the late Dr. Carl Sagan so elegantly phrased it: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Belief is not enough."
The burden of proof does not lie on the open mind, but on the closed dogmatic mind which assumes that we already know all there is to know.
Mr. Black Pot, meet Mr. Black Kettle. And by the way, that's your fifth Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy in this essay, Mr. Murphy. You fail.

Of course, Mr. Murphy failed with the opening sentence of his essay. To reexamine:
The question that arises about nature is: is it a creation, eternal to nature, or an accident within nature.
For a start, "accident" automatically assumes that the Universe was ever required to conform to our expectations of how it "should" have turned out. Clearly, Mr. Murphy would not accept the idea that order could conceivably arise out of chaos, but such spontaneous order is continually observed in the formations of stars within nebula that are the ruins left behind by the deaths of older stars and by the "pyramids" of Elysium on Mars —carved into shape by the continual action over millions of years by great sandstorms driven by winds blowing at half the speed of sound on that world. Erosion and time, producing pyramidal-like formations and without a "sculptor" involved. Gravitational collapse and time, producing suns and planets without a "mixer" involved. And any form of life which has ever or will ever develop on any world formed from gravity, orbiting stars formed from gravity and burning from gravitationally-induced nuclear fusion, forms within the natural mechanics of chemistry: atoms binding electromagnetically into molecules, which become more complex as more molecules are formed until they become complex enough to cross the line into animate matter and, hence, life. Even for non-animate matter, chemistry again observably imposes order out of random clusters of atoms through molecular formation, elsewise water would not exist, or methane, or any other compound you wish to name. The whole of the observable Universe can be adequately explained as the dance of gravity and electromagnetism, without need for a "conductor" to call the tune.
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by adam_grif »

"A painter needs a painting, the universe needs a creator" is a greatly simplified way of stating part of the Cosmological argument, namely the premise that says "all contingent and finite things must have a cause". Tread carefully with this one because they don't necessarily mean a temporal cause, but some "reason for being the way that it is", as opposed to anything else.

The central problem we can see with the statement is that it's based on intuition. Firstly and most visibly, we don't know if the universe could be any other way (it may not be contingent), and secondly the indeterminate nature of various quantum phenomena seem to indicate that the premise that finite contingent things need a cause for being is not necessarily the case.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Paula42 »

"A painter needs a painting, the universe needs a creator"
This is essentially a self contradictory argument it is based on the premise that "intelligent design" is a must while also including the ability for the spontaneous appearance of a complex existence. Apparently they consider that a complex thing like the Universe requires a designer, but they are quite willing to ignore that premise in regards to how the creator came about.

A universe is too complex to exist without a designer but the designer (that must be even more complex to create such a thing) can apparently just spontaneous exist.

Arguments that require that you ignore the very premise they are based upon are not particularly compelling i think.

Or did i miss something?. :idea:
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Ryushikaze »

"A creation might need a creator, but all existence requires is an existor. Welcome to existence." is a response I like to employ to the goalpost and burden shifting of the sort this argument is basically comprised of from top to bottom.
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Serafina »

I generally follow Carl Sagans famous line of reasoning and point out the infinite regress we get from the argument "everything that exists/is ordered requires a creator".
If that's the case, then who created the creator? Surely someone or something capable of creating order must be created, according to that logic?
And who created the creators creator, and so on and so on.

There are just two ways out of this dillema, neither requiring a creator:
-Accept that order can "built itself" via natural means - because something must have created one of those creators.
-Accept that one of those things is eternal.
In both case, you can do the classic "why not save a step, and assume that the universe is eternal/came into being by natural means"?

There really is nothing more to it - no reasonable person can accept an infinite line of creators creating each other. Any special pleading for god a creator is just that - special pleading.
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Zed »

Adam_Grif wrote:"A painter needs a painting, the universe needs a creator" is a greatly simplified way of stating part of the Cosmological argument, namely the premise that says "all contingent and finite things must have a cause".
No, it's a way of stating the teleological argument, which is the deduction of a creator out of the presence of order in the world. The cosmological argument (which you did describe correctly) is more basic than the teleological argument, although Kant has demonstrated the the teleological argument does not work unless the cosmological argument works (which itself does not work unless the ontological argument works, which it doesn't.)
Paula42 wrote:Apparently they consider that a complex thing like the Universe requires a designer, but they are quite willing to ignore that premise in regards to how the creator came about.

A universe is too complex to exist without a designer but the designer (that must be even more complex to create such a thing) can apparently just spontaneous exist.
Those who wield the teleological argument generally deny that the designer, i.e. God, is more complex than his creation. If one doesn't believe that the designer must be more complex than that what is designed, the teleological argument ceases to be contradictory, and does provide a good argument for the possibility of a designer. Unfortunately, except for fideists, most theists will want the teleological argument to do more.
Serafina wrote: -Accept that order can "built itself" via natural means - because something must have created one of those creators.
-Accept that one of those things is eternal.
In both case, you can do the classic "why not save a step, and assume that the universe is eternal/came into being by natural means"?
The law of parsimony, i.e. the contemporary interpretation of Occam's Razor, is a heuristic principle that is not universally agreed upon.
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Serafina »

If we are assuming that the creator was less complex than her creation, then the creators creator was less complex still. And the creator of her less complex and so on and so on.
Inevitably, this goes towards zero complexity. The logical result is that something of zero complexity brought something with non-zero complexity into existence. This removes the need for a creator entirely.

This problem is of course removed if you assume that the creator was more complex than her creation, or that the creators are changing complexity, that it goes up and down and up and down. If that's the case, you still have the "who created the creator"-infinite regress, illustrated above.
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Zed »

Serafina wrote:If we are assuming that the creator was less complex than her creation, then the creators creator was less complex still. And the creator of her less complex and so on and so on.
Inevitably, this goes towards zero complexity. The logical result is that something of zero complexity brought something with non-zero complexity into existence. This removes the need for a creator entirely.
The need for a creator cannot be demonstrated by the teleological argument, only his possibility. Your interpretation, however, is correct: the idea is that something of uttermost simplicity (i.e. God) created complexity.
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Paula42 »

Zed wrote: Those who wield the teleological argument generally deny that the designer, i.e. God, is more complex than his creation. If one doesn't believe that the designer must be more complex than that what is designed, the teleological argument ceases to be contradictory, and does provide a good argument for the possibility of a designer. Unfortunately, except for fideists, most theists will want the teleological argument to do more.
That the designer is more or less complex than the universe is not important, the fact is that the designer must be complex to be able to create and direct a universe as they claim he does.

As such those promoting such a idea are saying that a complex thing (god) can spontaneously exist and they support this view by using a argument that's foundational point is that a complex thing (the universe) cannot spontaneously exist without a creator.
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Zed »

In your first sentence, you claim that the idea that the designer is more or less complex than what he designs is unimportant. In the second sentence, you claim one of two things. The first possibility is that you claim that the designer must be more complex than what he designs, and that you use this as a counter-argument. This is a flat contradiction with what you said in the first sentence. The second possibility is that you claim that in order to create the universe, an equally or less complex designer suffices. In this case, it is possible to infinitely regress the argument (in a chain almost reminiscent of gnosticism) until one arrives at a designer which is infinitely simple. As such, the teleological argument still demonstrates the possibility of a designer.
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Paula42 »

Zed wrote:In your first sentence, you claim that the idea that the designer is more or less complex than what he designs is unimportant.

In the second sentence, you claim one of two things. The first possibility is that you claim that the designer must be more complex than what he designs, and that you use this as a counter-argument. This is a flat contradiction with what you said in the first sentence.
It is not really that important as the only thing that matters is that the designer by the very requirements put upon him is required to be very complex.

Zed wrote:The second possibility is that you claim that in order to create the universe, an equally or less complex designer suffices. In this case, it is possible to infinitely regress the argument (in a chain almost reminiscent of gnosticism) until one arrives at a designer which is infinitely simple. As such, the teleological argument still demonstrates the possibility of a designer.
That again is contradictory as it ultimately requires that the designer who is now at a point of zero complexity needing the ability to design, create and guide something of non-zero complexity and without god having complexity there can be no design or guidance.
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Zed »

Once again, you're using the premise that a creator must be more complex than whatever he can create. Unfortunately, those who wield the teleological argument will not agree to that premise. Establish the premise convincingly, and your rebuttal of the teleological argument might be more persuasive.
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

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Zed wrote:Once again, you're using the premise that a creator must be more complex than whatever he can create. Unfortunately, those who wield the teleological argument will not agree to that premise. Establish the premise convincingly, and your rebuttal of the teleological argument might be more persuasive.

Present the teleological argument in detail and il see what i can do to clarify things.

Although we seem to have gone from a discussion about proving/disproving a intelligent designer to essentially claiming the unthinking catalyst that created the universe is now god.
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Zed »

It has nothing to do with any individual presentation of the teleological argument - it has to do with your relying upon the notion that, in order to create something complex, a creator must be even more complex. Furthermore, it has do to with your implied belief that a non-complex creature must necessarily be some 'unthinking catalyst'.
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

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Zed wrote:It has nothing to do with any individual presentation of the teleological argument - it has to do with your relying upon the notion that, in order to create something complex, a creator must be even more complex.
I do not rely on it in fact i pointed out that the designer is mearly required to be complex rather than be required to be more complex.
Furthermore, it has do to with your implied belief that a non-complex creature must necessarily be some 'unthinking catalyst'.
I was not referring to any sort of creature when i referred to a unthinking catalyst as by definition the terms are mutually exclusive.

Any sort of creature by definition is a complex life-form and the greater its ability to reason and any other abilities you ascribe to it the more complex it becomes. While a unthinking catalyst can be something as simple and basic as two chemicals reacting to each other.
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by mr friendly guy »

adam_grif wrote:"A painter needs a painting, the universe needs a creator" is a greatly simplified way of stating part of the Cosmological argument, namely the premise that says "all contingent and finite things must have a cause". Tread carefully with this one because they don't necessarily mean a temporal cause, but some "reason for being the way that it is", as opposed to anything else.

The central problem we can see with the statement is that it's based on intuition. Firstly and most visibly, we don't know if the universe could be any other way (it may not be contingent), and secondly the indeterminate nature of various quantum phenomena seem to indicate that the premise that finite contingent things need a cause for being is not necessarily the case.
Not to mention that if they are using that argument to show the existence of a creator, its a big case of circular logic, ie they already assume the existence of the creator they are trying to prove. Its like those maths proofs in high school, where you have to show x = a. Instead of proving it, just say assume x = a, substitute into the equation for the win. Too bad that never worked in high school. :D
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Zed »

Paula42 wrote:
Zed wrote:It has nothing to do with any individual presentation of the teleological argument - it has to do with your relying upon the notion that, in order to create something complex, a creator must be even more complex.
I do not rely on it in fact i pointed out that the designer is mearly required to be complex rather than be required to be more complex.
You certainly postulated it - you didn't establish it convincingly. In addition, it doesn't really resolve the problem if you can continue with deducing the possibility of the existence of ever less complex designers.

Furthermore, it has do to with your implied belief that a non-complex creature must necessarily be some 'unthinking catalyst'.
I was not referring to any sort of creature when i referred to a unthinking catalyst as by definition the terms are mutually exclusive.
I chose my word unwisely - replace it with 'a non-complex being'.
Any sort of creature by definition is a complex life-form and the greater its ability to reason and any other abilities you ascribe to it the more complex it becomes. While a unthinking catalyst can be something as simple and basic as two chemicals reacting to each other.
Once again, you postulate this. Whether or not this is true depends on your conceptions of "intelligence", "existence", "complexity", "simplicity", "reasoning" et cetera, as well as one's entire metaphysical framework. You have to realize that these notions are not proven, but postulated. Insisting upon them without realizing that one can disagree with these principles is akin to Thomas Aquino's claim that any who do not acknowledge the existence of God are simply stubbornly refusing to accept an obvious truth: it demonstrates an unwillingness to acknowledge the uncertainty of one's own beliefs.
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by adam_grif »

Paula42 wrote:This is essentially a self contradictory argument it is based on the premise that "intelligent design" is a must while also including the ability for the spontaneous appearance of a complex existence. Apparently they consider that a complex thing like the Universe requires a designer, but they are quite willing to ignore that premise in regards to how the creator came about.
Since the Universe is contingent and finite, and therefore must have a "cause" (according to the cosmological argument), this cause (or an eventual one, it's not impossible for there to be several intermediate ones) must itself be either infinite or non-contingent or both. This is what they identify as God.

Now, it's not fair to say that all of them require "intelligent" design specifically, it's entirely possible for somebody to identify this as an uninvolved deistic force with no real human-like characteristics at all. But of course it's a bit questionable as to why you would call that God in the first place.
Serafina wrote:If we are assuming that the creator was less complex than her creation, then the creators creator was less complex still. And the creator of her less complex and so on and so on.
Inevitably, this goes towards zero complexity. The logical result is that something of zero complexity brought something with non-zero complexity into existence. This removes the need for a creator entirely.

This problem is of course removed if you assume that the creator was more complex than her creation, or that the creators are changing complexity, that it goes up and down and up and down. If that's the case, you still have the "who created the creator"-infinite regress, illustrated above.
This will be countered by the "Doctrine of Divine Simplicity". Now, reading that definition you're probably thinking about what a huge crock of shit that all is, but it was not invented without good reason on the part of theologians. You can get a good run down from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

Although what you have said might be a good way to persuade your average internet goer, it's not really a great rebuttal since this is all old-ground for theological debate. They've said that God is inherently as simple as possible, and is 'necessary' for existence.
Zed wrote:which itself does not work unless the ontological argument works, which it doesn't.
Could you elaborate on that? I don't see why the Cosmological argument requires the (abysmal) ontological argument.
A scientist once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: 'What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise.

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, 'What is the tortoise standing on?'

'You're very clever, young man, very clever,' said the old lady. 'But it's turtles all the way down.'
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Zed »

adam_grif wrote:
Zed wrote:which itself does not work unless the ontological argument works, which it doesn't.
Could you elaborate on that? I don't see why the Cosmological argument requires the (abysmal) ontological argument.
Kant established this rather convincingly in the Critique of Pure Reason - the major factor is the fact that, while the cosmological argument can demonstrate the possibility of a first cause, it cannot demonstrate its necessity. In order to demonstrate that a first cause is necessary, and not merely possible, one must assert its existence in another way. The only known way is the ontological argument, which fails horribly.

Kant develops this train of thought in the following section:
SECTION V. Of the Impossibility of a Cosmological Proof
of the Existence of God.
It was by no means a natural course of proceeding, but, on the
contrary, an invention entirely due to the subtlety of the schools,
to attempt to draw from a mere idea a proof of the existence of an
object corresponding to it. Such a course would never have been pursued,
were it not for that need of reason which requires it to suppose the
existence of a necessary being as a basis for the empirical regress,
and that, as this necessity must be unconditioned and a priori, reason
is bound to discover a conception which shall satisfy, if possible,
this requirement, and enable us to attain to the a priori cognition
of such a being. This conception was thought to be found in the idea
of an ens realissimum, and thus this idea was employed for the attainment
of a better defined knowledge of a necessary being, of the existence
of which we were convinced, or persuaded, on other grounds. Thus
reason was seduced from her natural courage; and, instead of
concluding with the conception of an ens realissimum, an attempt was
made to begin with it, for the purpose of inferring from it that
idea of a necessary existence which it was in fact called in to
complete. Thus arose that unfortunate ontological argument, which
neither satisfies the healthy common sense of humanity, nor sustains
the scientific examination of the philosopher.

The cosmological proof, which we are about to examine, retains the
connection between absolute necessity and the highest reality; but,
instead of reasoning from this highest reality to a necessary
existence, like the preceding argument, it concludes from the given
unconditioned necessity of some being its unlimited reality. The track
it pursues, whether rational or sophistical, is at least natural,
and not only goes far to persuade the common understanding, but
shows itself deserving of respect from the speculative intellect;
while it contains, at the same time, the outlines of all the arguments
employed in natural theology--arguments which always have been, and
still will be, in use and authority. These, however adorned, and hid
under whatever embellishments of rhetoric and sentiment, are at bottom
identical with the arguments we are at present to discuss. This proof,
termed by Leibnitz the argumentum a contingentia mundi, I shall now
lay before the reader, and subject to a strict examination.

It is framed in the following manner: If something exists, an
absolutely necessary being must likewise exist. Now I, at least,
exist. Consequently, there exists an absolutely necessary being. The
minor contains an experience, the major reasons from a general
experience to the existence of a necessary being.* Thus this
argument really begins at experience, and is not completely a
priori, or ontological. The object of all possible experience being
the world, it is called the cosmological proof. It contains no
reference to any peculiar property of sensuous objects, by which
this world of sense might be distinguished from other possible worlds;
and in this respect it differs from the physico-theological proof,
which is based upon the consideration of the peculiar constitution
of our sensuous world.

[*Footnote: This inference is too well known to require more detailed
discussion. It is based upon the spurious transcendental law of
causality, that everything which is contingent has a cause, which,
if itself contingent, must also have a cause; and so on, till the
series of subordinated causes must end with an absolutely necessary
cause, without which it would not possess completeness.]

The proof proceeds thus: A necessary being can be determined only in
one way, that is, it can be determined by only one of all possible
opposed predicates; consequently, it must be completely determined
in and by its conception. But there is only a single conception of
a thing possible, which completely determines the thing a priori: that
is, the conception of the ens realissimum. It follows that the
conception of the ens realissimum is the only conception by and in
which we can cogitate a necessary being. Consequently, a Supreme Being
necessarily exists.

In this cosmological argument are assembled so many sophistical
propositions that speculative reason seems to have exerted in it all
her dialectical skill to produce a transcendental illusion of the most
extreme character. We shall postpone an investigation of this argument
for the present, and confine ourselves to exposing the stratagem by
which it imposes upon us an old argument in a new dress, and appeals
to the agreement of two witnesses, the one with the credentials of
pure reason, and the other with those of empiricism; while, in fact,
it is only the former who has changed his dress and voice, for the
purpose of passing himself off for an additional witness. That it
may possess a secure foundation, it bases its conclusions upon
experience, and thus appears to be completely distinct from the
ontological argument, which places its confidence entirely in pure
a priori conceptions. But this experience merely aids reason in making
one step--to the existence of a necessary being. What the properties
of this being are cannot be learned from experience; and therefore
reason abandons it altogether, and pursues its inquiries in the sphere
of pure conception, for the purpose of discovering what the properties
of an absolutely necessary being ought to be, that is, what among
all possible things contain the conditions (requisita) of absolute
necessity. Reason believes that it has discovered these requisites
in the conception of an ens realissimum--and in it alone, and hence
concludes: The ens realissimum is an absolutely necessary being. But
it is evident that reason has here presupposed that the conception
of an ens realissimum is perfectly adequate to the conception of a
being of absolute necessity, that is, that we may infer the
existence of the latter from that of the former--a proposition which
formed the basis of the ontological argument, and which is now
employed in the support of the cosmological argument, contrary to
the wish and professions of its inventors. For the existence of an
absolutely necessary being is given in conceptions alone. But if I
say: "The conception of the ens realissimum is a conception of this
kind, and in fact the only conception which is adequate to our idea
of a necessary being," I am obliged to admit, that the latter may be
inferred from the former. Thus it is properly the ontological argument
which figures in the cosmological, and constitutes the whole
strength of the latter; while the spurious basis of experience has
been of no further use than to conduct us to the conception of
absolute necessity, being utterly insufficient to demonstrate the
presence of this attribute in any determinate existence or thing.
For when we propose to ourselves an aim of this character, we must
abandon the sphere of experience, and rise to that of pure
conceptions, which we examine with the purpose of discovering
whether any one contains the conditions of the possibility of an
absolutely necessary being. But if the possibility of such a being
is thus demonstrated, its existence is also proved; for we may then
assert that, of all possible beings there is one which possesses the
attribute of necessity--in other words, this being possesses an
absolutely necessary existence.

All illusions in an argument are more easily detected when they
are presented in the formal manner employed by the schools, which we
now proceed to do.

If the proposition: "Every absolutely necessary being is likewise an
ens realissimum," is correct (and it is this which constitutes the
nervus probandi of the cosmological argument), it must, like all
affirmative judgements, be capable of conversion--the conversio per
accidens, at least. It follows, then, that some entia realissima are
absolutely necessary beings. But no ens realissimum is in any
respect different from another, and what is valid of some is valid
of all. In this present case, therefore, I may employ simple
conversion, and say: "Every ens realissimum is a necessary being."
But as this proposition is determined a priori by the conceptions
contained in it, the mere conception of an ens realissimum must
possess the additional attribute of absolute necessity. But this is
exactly what was maintained in the ontological argument, and not
recognized by the cosmological, although it formed the real ground
of its disguised and illusory reasoning.

Thus the second mode employed by speculative reason of demonstrating
the existence of a Supreme Being, is not only, like the first,
illusory and inadequate, but possesses the additional blemish of an
ignoratio elenchi--professing to conduct us by a new road to the
desired goal, but bringing us back, after a short circuit, to the
old path which we had deserted at its call.

I mentioned above that this cosmological argument contains a perfect
nest of dialectical assumptions, which transcendental criticism does
not find it difficult to expose and to dissipate. I shall merely
enumerate these, leaving it to the reader, who must by this time be
well practised in such matters, to investigate the fallacies
residing therein.

The following fallacies, for example, are discoverable in this
mode of proof: 1. The transcendental principle: "Everything that is
contingent must have a cause"--a principle without significance,
except in the sensuous world. For the purely intellectual conception
of the contingent cannot produce any synthetical proposition, like
that of causality, which is itself without significance or
distinguishing characteristic except in the phenomenal world. But in
the present case it is employed to help us beyond the limits of its
sphere. 2. "From the impossibility of an infinite ascending series
of causes in the world of sense a first cause is inferred"; a
conclusion which the principles of the employment of reason do not
justify even in the sphere of experience, and still less when an
attempt is made to pass the limits of this sphere. 3. Reason allows
itself to be satisfied upon insufficient grounds, with regard to the
completion of this series. It removes all conditions (without which,
however, no conception of Necessity can take place); and, as after
this it is beyond our power to form any other conceptions, it
accepts this as a completion of the conception it wishes to form of
the series. 4. The logical possibility of a conception of the total
of reality (the criterion of this possibility being the absence of
contradiction) is confounded with the transcendental, which requires
a principle of the practicability of such a synthesis--a principle
which again refers us to the world of experience. And so on.

The aim of the cosmological argument is to avoid the necessity of
proving the existence of a necessary being priori from mere
conceptions--a proof which must be ontological, and of which we feel
ourselves quite incapable. With this purpose, we reason from an actual
existence--an experience in general, to an absolutely necessary
condition of that existence. It is in this case unnecessary to
demonstrate its possibility. For after having proved that it exists,
the question regarding its possibility is superfluous. Now, when we
wish to define more strictly the nature of this necessary being, we
do not look out for some being the conception of which would enable
us to comprehend the necessity of its being--for if we could do this,
an empirical presupposition would be unnecessary; no, we try to
discover merely the negative condition (conditio sine qua non),
without which a being would not be absolutely necessary. Now this
would be perfectly admissible in every sort of reasoning, from a
consequence to its principle; but in the present case it unfortunately
happens that the condition of absolute necessity can be discovered
in but a single being, the conception of which must consequently
contain all that is requisite for demonstrating the presence of
absolute necessity, and thus entitle me to infer this absolute
necessity a priori. That is, it must be possible to reason conversely,
and say: The thing, to which the conception of the highest reality
belongs, is absolutely necessary. But if I cannot reason thus--and
I cannot, unless I believe in the sufficiency of the ontological
argument--I find insurmountable obstacles in my new path, and am
really no farther than the point from which I set out. The
conception of a Supreme Being satisfies all questions a priori
regarding the internal determinations of a thing, and is for this
reason an ideal without equal or parallel, the general conception of
it indicating it as at the same time an ens individuum among all
possible things. But the conception does not satisfy the question
regarding its existence--which was the purpose of all our inquiries;
and, although the existence of a necessary being were admitted, we
should find it impossible to answer the question: What of all things
in the world must be regarded as such?

It is certainly allowable to admit the existence of an
all-sufficient being--a cause of all possible effects--for the purpose
of enabling reason to introduce unity into its mode and grounds of
explanation with regard to phenomena. But to assert that such a
being necessarily exists, is no longer the modest enunciation of an
admissible hypothesis, but the boldest declaration of an apodeictic
certainty; for the cognition of that which is absolutely necessary
must itself possess that character.

The aim of the transcendental ideal formed by the mind is either
to discover a conception which shall harmonize with the idea of
absolute necessity, or a conception which shall contain that idea.
If the one is possible, so is the other; for reason recognizes that
alone as absolutely necessary which is necessary from its
conception. But both attempts are equally beyond our power--we find
it impossible to satisfy the understanding upon this point, and as
impossible to induce it to remain at rest in relation to this
incapacity.

Unconditioned necessity, which, as the ultimate support and stay
of all existing things, is an indispensable requirement of the mind,
is an abyss on the verge of which human reason trembles in dismay.
Even the idea of eternity, terrible and sublime as it is, as
depicted by Haller, does not produce upon the mental vision such a
feeling of awe and terror; for, although it measures the duration of
things, it does not support them. We cannot bear, nor can we rid
ourselves of the thought that a being, which we regard as the greatest
of all possible existences, should say to himself: I am from
eternity to eternity; beside me there is nothing, except that which
exists by my will; whence then am I? Here all sinks away from under
us; and the greatest, as the smallest, perfection, hovers without stay
or footing in presence of the speculative reason, which finds it as
easy to part with the one as with the other.

Many physical powers, which evidence their existence by their
effects, are perfectly inscrutable in their nature; they elude all
our powers of observation. The transcendental object which forms the
basis of phenomena, and, in connection with it, the reason why our
sensibility possesses this rather than that particular kind of
conditions, are and must ever remain hidden from our mental vision;
the fact is there, the reason of the fact we cannot see. But an
ideal of pure reason cannot be termed mysterious or inscrutable,
because the only credential of its reality is the need of it felt by
reason, for the purpose of giving completeness to the world of
synthetical unity. An ideal is not even given as a cogitable object,
and therefore cannot be inscrutable; on the contrary, it must, as a
mere idea, be based on the constitution of reason itself, and on
this account must be capable of explanation and solution. For the very
essence of reason consists in its ability to give an account, of all
our conceptions, opinions, and assertions--upon objective, or, when
they happen to be illusory and fallacious, upon subjective grounds.



Detection and Explanation of the Dialectical Illusion in
all Transcendental Arguments for the Existence of a
Necessary Being.

Both of the above arguments are transcendental; in other words, they
do not proceed upon empirical principles. For, although the
cosmological argument professed to lay a basis of experience for its
edifice of reasoning, it did not ground its procedure upon the
peculiar constitution of experience, but upon pure principles of
reason--in relation to an existence given by empirical
consciousness; utterly abandoning its guidance, however, for the
purpose of supporting its assertions entirely upon pure conceptions.
Now what is the cause, in these transcendental arguments, of the
dialectical, but natural, illusion, which connects the conceptions
of necessity and supreme reality, and hypostatizes that which cannot
be anything but an idea? What is the cause of this unavoidable step
on the part of reason, of admitting that some one among all existing
things must be necessary, while it falls back from the assertion of
the existence of such a being as from an abyss? And how does reason
proceed to explain this anomaly to itself, and from the wavering
condition of a timid and reluctant approbation--always again
withdrawn--arrive at a calm and settled insight into its cause?

It is something very remarkable that, on the supposition that
something exists, I cannot avoid the inference that something exists
necessarily. Upon this perfectly natural--but not on that account
reliable--inference does the cosmological argument rest. But, let me
form any conception whatever of a thing, I find that I cannot cogitate
the existence of the thing as absolutely necessary, and that nothing
prevents me--be the thing or being what it may--from cogitating its
non-existence. I may thus be obliged to admit that all existing things
have a necessary basis, while I cannot cogitate any single or
individual thing as necessary. In other words, I can never complete
the regress through the conditions of existence, without admitting
the existence of a necessary being; but, on the other hand, I cannot
make a commencement from this being.

If I must cogitate something as existing necessarily as the basis of
existing things, and yet am not permitted to cogitate any individual
thing as in itself necessary, the inevitable inference is that
necessity and contingency are not properties of things themselves-
otherwise an internal contradiction would result; that consequently
neither of these principles are objective, but merely subjective
principles of reason--the one requiring us to seek for a necessary
ground for everything that exists, that is, to be satisfied with no
other explanation than that which is complete a priori, the other
forbidding us ever to hope for the attainment of this completeness,
that is, to regard no member of the empirical world as
unconditioned. In this mode of viewing them, both principles, in their
purely heuristic and regulative character, and as concerning merely
the formal interest of reason, are quite consistent with each other.
The one says: "You must philosophize upon nature," as if there existed
a necessary primal basis of all existing things, solely for the
purpose of introducing systematic unity into your knowledge, by
pursuing an idea of this character--a foundation which is
arbitrarily admitted to be ultimate; while the other warns you to
consider no individual determination, concerning the existence of
things, as such an ultimate foundation, that is, as absolutely
necessary, but to keep the way always open for further progress in
the deduction, and to treat every determination as determined by some
other. But if all that we perceive must be regarded as conditionally
necessary, it is impossible that anything which is empirically given
should be absolutely necessary.

It follows from this that you must accept the absolutely necessary
as out of and beyond the world, inasmuch as it is useful only as a
principle of the highest possible unity in experience, and you
cannot discover any such necessary existence in the would, the
second rule requiring you to regard all empirical causes of unity as
themselves deduced.

The philosophers of antiquity regarded all the forms of nature as
contingent; while matter was considered by them, in accordance with
the judgement of the common reason of mankind, as primal and
necessary. But if they had regarded matter, not relatively--as the
substratum of phenomena, but absolutely and in itself--as an
independent existence, this idea of absolute necessity would have
immediately disappeared. For there is nothing absolutely connecting
reason with such an existence; on the contrary, it can annihilate it
in thought, always and without self-contradiction. But in thought
alone lay the idea of absolute necessity. A regulative principle must,
therefore, have been at the foundation of this opinion. In fact,
extension and impenetrability--which together constitute our
conception of matter--form the supreme empirical principle of the
unity of phenomena, and this principle, in so far as it is empirically
unconditioned, possesses the property of a regulative principle.
But, as every determination of matter which constitutes what is real
in it--and consequently impenetrability--is an effect, which must have
a cause, and is for this reason always derived, the notion of matter
cannot harmonize with the idea of a necessary being, in its
character of the principle of all derived unity. For every one of
its real properties, being derived, must be only conditionally
necessary, and can therefore be annihilated in thought; and thus the
whole existence of matter can be so annihilated or suppressed. If this
were not the case, we should have found in the world of phenomena
the highest ground or condition of unity--which is impossible,
according to the second regulative principle. It follows that
matter, and, in general, all that forms part of the world of sense,
cannot be a necessary primal being, nor even a principle of
empirical unity, but that this being or principle must have its
place assigned without the world. And, in this way, we can proceed
in perfect confidence to deduce the phenomena of the world and their
existence from other phenomena, just as if there existed no
necessary being; and we can at the same time, strive without ceasing
towards the attainment of completeness for our deduction, just as if
such a being--the supreme condition of all existences--were
presupposed by the mind.

These remarks will have made it evident to the reader that the ideal
of the Supreme Being, far from being an enouncement of the existence
of a being in itself necessary, is nothing more than a regulative
principle of reason, requiring us to regard all connection existing
between phenomena as if it had its origin from an all-sufficient
necessary cause, and basing upon this the rule of a systematic and
necessary unity in the explanation of phenomena. We cannot, at the
same time, avoid regarding, by a transcendental subreptio, this formal
principle as constitutive, and hypostatizing this unity. Precisely
similar is the case with our notion of space. Space is the primal
condition of all forms, which are properly just so many different
limitations of it; and thus, although it is merely a principle of
sensibility, we cannot help regarding it as an absolutely necessary
and self-subsistent thing--as an object given a priori in itself. In
the same way, it is quite natural that, as the systematic unity of
nature cannot be established as a principle for the empirical
employment of reason, unless it is based upon the idea of an ens
realissimum, as the supreme cause, we should regard this idea as a
real object, and this object, in its character of supreme condition,
as absolutely necessary, and that in this way a regulative should be
transformed into a constitutive principle. This interchange becomes
evident when I regard this supreme being, which, relatively to the
world, was absolutely (unconditionally) necessary, as a thing per
se. In this case, I find it impossible to represent this necessity
in or by any conception, and it exists merely in my own mind, as the
formal condition of thought, but not as a material and hypostatic
condition of existence.

If you're interested enough to invest quite some time into learning Kant's rather excessive vocabulary, it's worth a read.
Paula42
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Paula42 »

Zed wrote: Once again, you postulate this. Whether or not this is true depends on your conceptions of "intelligence", "existence", "complexity", "simplicity", "reasoning" et cetera, as well as one's entire metaphysical framework. You have to realize that these notions are not proven, but postulated. Insisting upon them without realizing that one can disagree with these principles is akin to Thomas Aquino's claim that any who do not acknowledge the existence of God are simply stubbornly refusing to accept an obvious truth: it demonstrates an unwillingness to acknowledge the uncertainty of one's own beliefs.
Appeals to ignorace are the hall mark of creationalists nowadays so i do not find it at all supprising that some of them have produced ones of more complexity than the standard "you do not know everything so you cannot prove god does not exist" line. And you or others are more than welcome to disagree with what i think but you are unlikely to sway my opinion with nothing but handwaves towards what we MAY not know.
Zed
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Zed »

I'm not handwaving - I'm saying that you're making claims without supporting them with evidence, and that you're using these as rebuttals to an argument that a designer could potentially exist. I've made no claim whatsoever as to his actual existence. In fact, as I consider myself an atheist, I believe it highly unlikely that there is a God. Nevertheless, I believe the beliefs and arguments of some atheists can be just as unsupported as the beliefs and arguments of some theists, and a critical examination of them is necessary. In effect, you're trying to ignore my pointing out that you are making unsupported claims by trying to paint me as a creationist. This is a red herring, and an attempt to bring about guilt by association.
Paula42
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Paula42 »

Zed wrote:I'm not handwaving - I'm saying that you're making claims without supporting them with evidence, and that you're using these as rebuttals to an argument that a designer could potentially exist. I've made no claim whatsoever as to his actual existence. In fact, as I consider myself an atheist, I believe it highly unlikely that there is a God. Nevertheless, I believe the beliefs and arguments of some atheists can be just as unsupported as the beliefs and arguments of some theists, and a critical examination of them is necessary. In effect, you're trying to ignore my pointing out that you are making unsupported claims by trying to paint me as a creationist. This is a red herring, and an attempt to bring about guilt by association.
But do you not see that by using a appeal to ignorace to support a claim of a "potential" designer/creator you are not only doing the very thing you accuse me of doing (making or at the very least supporting/presenting claims that have no supporting evidence) while also shifting the burden of proof and trying to make me prove a negative?.
Zed
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Zed »

What I'm doing is pointing out that the simplistic rebuttal of the teleological argument presented above ("if something as complex as the universe requires a designer, then its designer is surely more complex and would also require a designer, which would then again be more complex, etc. - as such, the teleological argument is inherently contradictory") does not work. I'm not asking you to prove a negative (e.g. God does not exist), nor am I supporting claims that have no supporting evidence (e.g. God exists and is the designer of the universe). All I'm trying to do is make you acknowledge that your criticism of the teleological argument was flawed, and that there is not necessarily a contradiction in claiming that something as complex as the universe must be designed, whilst maintaining a designer of lesser complexity. In other words, that it is not, in principle, impossible for a creator-god to exist. This isn't a very impressive claim. It certainly doesn't suffice for most theists, who generally maintain that God must necessarily exist.


All that said, there are plenty of different ways in which the teleological argument can be undermined. I recommend reading the rest of Kant's treatment of the proofs of God (he thoroughly debunks each of them in roughly three separate ways each, before Darwin even presented his theory of evolution), or, somewhat less complex, Hume's Dialogues on Natural Religion (likewise, before Darwin presented his alternative to intelligent design), if you want to look into the matter more deeply.
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Majin Gojira
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Majin Gojira »

Kant's a fuckin' tool. Seriously. I had to study him in a college philosophy course and tore him to shreds midway through the course, flummoxing the teacher.

It being a Catholic School I was auditing courses from made it all the sweeter.

Unfortunately, it's been a while since then but if I remember basically involved a deconstructions of the proto "Matrix" bullshit he also pushed, usually revolving around ones willing-ness to test how unreliable our observations are by smashing your own hand with a hammer.

And I'm not going to read Kant again. Ever.

Apologetics of any kind are not worth the time it takes to read them, and Kant is classic apologetics.
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Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.

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Zed
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Re: Deism v. Atheism

Post by Zed »

Kant's one of the greatest philosophers who've ever lived, and even though there are a great range of issues on which he is wrong, dismissing him as a "tool" only displays arrogance and ignorance. Instead of merely dismissing him, it might be worthwhile to actually point out his flaws (insofar as they are relevant to his treatment of the proofs of god).
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