Guy trades in his hand for a cybernetic one

[Zor]

Link

And appropriate musical accomplyment



Ok, but seriously this is a rather interesting development, i wonder if this could be the start of a subculture?

Zor

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Ok, but seriously this is a rather interesting development, i wonder if this could be the start of a subculture?

The start of a subculture? These guys couldn't move their hands after an injury. They were basically dead weight. I can totally understand having it removed for a more functional bionic one. I'm not sure how that could be considered the start of a subculture. I'd do the same thing. But since my hand IS functional, I'm certainly not trading it in for an inferior mechanical one.

[madd0ct0r]

I was about to say "meh, it's the same as replacing a lost limb."

But it's not. It's removing part of your body. Given that it's dead weight, and these are young active men you might argue that it isn't part of their body image anymore. It's just a 'thing' attached to them, and cause for some resentment. I don't see this as start of a new subculture, because i think there's even less of these guys then amputees.

the trend of amputees choosing stainless steel over latex isn't new either. We're well into the uncanny valley with the latex, and again, a lot of amputees are young men who are more likely to go 'cool' then freak out.

[Broomstick]

Not so much the start of a new subculture as an advance in treating a certain type of dysfunction. Even 10 years ago, the idea was any biological hand was better than a prosthesis, because the prosthesis was really just a lump or, at best, a fancy hook. Now, we've got bionics that actually do something, so a prosthetic can now be more useful than a hook.

This happened in legs/feet some time ago, maybe as much as 20-25 years, when prosthetic legs became more functional than a mangled limb. It's just that hands are much more complicated so they took more time to reach a similar utility.

[Zaune]

Actually, the part that I find most striking is that we can build an artificial limb that can pick up signals directly from the nervous system -and even send certain signals back, I believe- yet the ability to treat severed or otherwise damaged nerves is still beyond us.

[Serafina]

Remember that we already HAVE people who (risk) damage parts of their body in order to be fancy, good-looking or follow a trend. There already is a huge variety of body modifications with plenty of different subcultures - tattoos, piercings, even more invasive stuff like shaped ears.

The thing is that those do not cause a large loss of functionality (at least if done right). A tattooed bodypart works just as well as an untreated one, and piercings only injure small parts of your body.
I think we won't see people replacing their hands with cybernetic ones until they can get close to the functionality of natural ones. But that includes a wide range of abilities beyond just motor control, and we're not even there yet - and even further away with tactile sensitivity. I really doubt many people would be willing to give up their sensitivity in one hand and accept a significant loss of motor control just to have a fancy metal hand. Certainly not enough to form a subculture, rather than just a few odd people doing so.

However, that will likely change in the future when prosthetics get better. When we also get something to trigger such a subculture (such as young, wounded soldiers who have prosthetics and are seen as cool), we'll probably have a subculture that sees prosthetics as cool.

[Broomstick]

I think, to some extent, we already have the cool factor at work - what stops it being a subculture, aside from "still not able to perform as well as organic in all aspects":

- great expense, these cybernetics are tens of thousands of dollars at a minimum, sometimes even into the six figures.

- the need for power. Know how annoying it is if your smartphone battery goes dead? Imagine that happening to a body part.

- durability. Even the most durable low-tech prosthetics don't last a lifetime, the higher tech ones with electronics and computers can have both mechanical and electronic breakdowns. Back when I could get a look at the Blue Cross medical policy manual the typical US health insurance policy paid for a replacement of a prosthetic limb about every 5-10 years (depending on what, and also age as younger people are presumably more active) - if US insurance is doing that you can be damn certain someone has researched it and they aren't lasting longer than that. That's on top of the power cells and recharging unit you need for these things. Hey, my organic hand doesn't require accessories to operate. Cool.

Thing is, if a piercing goes wrong it can be removed. Well, maybe you lose a bit of an ear or something, but it doesn't really impair your ability to function. Tattoos can be covered and, if you're really determined, removed, even to the extent of skin grafting over the site (yes, extreme, but it can be done). Things like hair and make up are laughably easy to change. Amputation is a major and permanent change.

Now, there have been societies that have gone for that level of body modification. Foot binding in China for instance. So it certainly could happen, but it's pretty rare to get that level of body mod to any extent in a society for something that doesn't improve function. Actually, I can't recall ever hearing of a body mod that improves functioning. If we ever do get prosthetic equal to or superior to biological appendages I'm not sure what will happen, that would be an interesting. I have no idea if I'd like such a world or not.

[Kingmaker]

When the Singularity Comes, the biochauvinists will be the first up against the wall.

But seriously, I don't think that this should be taken as much more than indication that prosthetics are rapidly approaching full functionality (which is still cool). But the article didn't say anything about a sense of touch, which is not as easily replicated as the mechanics of the hand. I don't think we are going to see healthy people volunteering for amputation until cybernetic hands significantly outperform meat hands, and even then it will be fairly unusual and primarily limited to a small subset of people in fields that benefit from superhands. Most people tend to be fairly attached to the various parts of their body.

Plus, what happens when your robohand gets a virus?

[Elheru Aran]

Prosthetic hands shouldn't have ANY software except what's hard-wired into them; update it by pulling out the parts and putting in new parts. No viruses should even be able to knock on the door, let alone get in.

That's an ideal, though. I'm not sure how they work right now though... do they like plug them in to charge at bedtime or something? Now that's a strange thought...

[Broomstick]

But seriously, I don't think that this should be taken as much more than indication that prosthetics are rapidly approaching full functionality (which is still cool). But the article didn't say anything about a sense of touch, which is not as easily replicated as the mechanics of the hand.

Look at the video. The man does nothing with the hand as far as movement unless he's looking at it, and when manipulating an object his entire attention is focused on it. Whatever tactile feedback there is can't be more than crude, and I'd say there's probably none at all, other than vibration transmitted by the hand touching or holding something. He can move it but he can't feel it. There is no sense of touch.

Prosthetic hands shouldn't have ANY software except what's hard-wired into them; update it by pulling out the parts and putting in new parts. No viruses should even be able to knock on the door, let alone get in.

Incorrect. The sophisticated legs, like the C-legs, certainly do have software in them. There's an on board computer (small one) to both interpret the signals coming off the residual limb as well as a... well... call it a "walk by wire" system that converts those signals into motion in the joints of the limb in a way I certainly don't understand but does involve some computing power, otherwise you might as well have purely mechanical devices. Some of them can also provide a limited amount of feedback. The hands have to be at least that sophisticated, and I'm guessing more so because hand motions are so much more complex. That's just the basics - there's a leg amputee pilot who's prosthetic can be adjusted between walking motion and that needed to fly the airplane, he changes the program by going through specific motions in a specific order and can switch back and forth as needed. That's software stuff. The high-end prosthetics not only have some basic software, additional programing needs to be done for each amputee as all of them have different sorts of damage in their stumps.

So, yes, you can get software problems in them. Of course, these aren't systems that would normally be plugged into a network or internet at all. That would provide considerable virus protection right there. However, errors in software writing or programming could certain occur.

That's an ideal, though. I'm not sure how they work right now though... do they like plug them in to charge at bedtime or something? Now that's a strange thought...

Depends on the exact model. Some have removable batteries, so you have two and use one while the other is charging. Others, yes, you do plug in overnight.

Another thing frequently not mentioned is that amputees don't wear the prosthetics constantly. They apply pressure on the stumps so a certain amount of time needs to spent with the device off or you get pressure sores - and if you do, you can't wear the prosthetic at all until they heal. The skin on the stumps also needs air and such, you don't want that breaking down from dirt and sweat, either. So yeah, cool magic hand there, dude - pity you can only tolerate wearing it part of the day.

[Formless]

...and for some reason, the instant I saw this thread I thought of a certain mental disorder.

Granted, it doesn't apply to this case since under this kid's circumstances having a bionic hand that moves but can't feel is better than having a real limb that can feel but not move. But if this ever became a trendy thing to do among people who have no such disability... well, I think that would say something about the sanity of our culture. At least not until the limbs have progressed to the point of full human functionality or better, and even then it would be a hard feeling to shake.

[defanatic]

Vaguely reminded of Repo from the first few posts.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Actually, the part that I find most striking is that we can build an artificial limb that can pick up signals directly from the nervous system -and even send certain signals back, I believe- yet the ability to treat severed or otherwise damaged nerves is still beyond us.

Yeah, they've got the ability to send back actual sensation, but it's in its infancy. A Google search of "bionic hand sensation" turned up a bunch of results. The level of sensation isn't the same as with a real hand, of course, but you get more than just a vibration telling you how hard you're gripping something.


As to this ever becoming a subculture, I doubt it'll happen any time soon. Maybe, in the future. But it seems unlikely that any good doctor would amputate a perfectly healthy limb just so the patient could get a shiny metal one instead.

Advances in medicine are getting insane these days...