Getting back at bullies

[Eulogy]

In the light of this it is very apparent that bullies are allowed to be bullies because the current system favours them, whether it be because of popularity, money, or zero tolerance bullshit. Bullying doesn't just occur in schools, either.

The victims cannot go through the ostensibly "proper channels" because the deck is stacked against them, the people who are supposed to help them are on the side of their bullies for various reasons.

This means that victims of bullying, especially workplace bullying, have to be rather creative with how they punish bullies for their crimes. Videotaping, starting or joining a class-action lawsuit, and even unlawful acts such as arranging to get them killed or maimed are all available methods.

So, while there will be social change and upheaval, such things tend to work too slowly, so in the meantime how should victims of bullying in all forms and all places?

[amigocabal]

In the light of this it is very apparent that bullies are allowed to be bullies because the current system favours them, whether it be because of popularity, money, or zero tolerance bullshit. Bullying doesn't just occur in schools, either.

The victims cannot go through the ostensibly "proper channels" because the deck is stacked against them, the people who are supposed to help them are on the side of their bullies for various reasons.

This means that victims of bullying, especially workplace bullying, have to be rather creative with how they punish bullies for their crimes. Videotaping, starting or joining a class-action lawsuit, and even unlawful acts such as arranging to get them killed or maimed are all available methods.

So, while there will be social change and upheaval, such things tend to work too slowly, so in the meantime how should victims of bullying in all forms and all places?

By avoiding the places where the bullying occurs, for one thing.

[eion]

Yes, because its not like most bullying occurs in mandatory attendances environments, e.g. School.

So basically you just want kids to drop out of school to avoid their bullies?

[amigocabal]

Yes, because its not like most bullying occurs in mandatory attendances environments, e.g. School.

So basically you just want kids to drop out of school to avoid their bullies?

That is a better solution than punching them in the face, which will only get them in trouble.

[Stark]

A sensible workplace with have robust processes for reporting and dealing with workplace bullying. The only issues are confidence in the system to encourage reporting and effective policies to simplify responses.

Are people saying kids who are bullied should avoid school? Dear me.

[Highlord Laan]

Yes, because its not like most bullying occurs in mandatory attendances environments, e.g. School.

So basically you just want kids to drop out of school to avoid their bullies?

That is a better solution than punching them in the face, which will only get them in trouble.

Welcome to being part of the problem. Sometime, violence is the answer. It's just as much a pack response as bulling itself is. You're reinforcing the problem while denying it's most useful answer in the name of making people feel good.

The victim will get in trouble anyway. If he or she tries the proper channels, all that will happen is the bully will get a slap on the wrist, then proceed with more, often worse, bullying. If the victim instead forces the issue, they'll be suspended if a student or have to justify themselves as an adult, in which self defense can be used. They bully will likely then leave them the hell alone for fear of worse reprisals. Even better for the student, they can make a media circus out of it and start wrecking reputations, which given how most school faculty "work" is a rather nice bonus.

And yes, I'll gladly face assault charges before ever allowing anyone to treat me like I was in high school ever again.

[Eternal_Freedom]

From my own personal experience, no matter how open and willing school staff are to punish bullies, it is hard to do so. No bully will pick on a kid in front of staff, so there are rarely any witnesses that aren't either a) also intimidated by the bully or b) in league with them.

In my case it took hitting the bully round the head with a chair and justifying myself tot he headmistress before anything happenned. Her inevitable approach was "Why didn't you tell a teacher about this?" My answer: "I did, repeatedly, but nothing you did worked. My way worked much better."

[Stark]

Welcome to being part of the problem. Sometime, violence is the answer. It's just as much a pack response as bulling itself is. You're reinforcing the problem while denying it's most useful answer in the name of making people feel good.

The victim will get in trouble anyway. If he or she tries the proper channels, all that will happen is the bully will get a slap on the wrist, then proceed with more, often worse, bullying. If the victim instead forces the issue, they'll be suspended if a student or have to justify themselves as an adult, in which self defense can be used. They bully will likely then leave them the hell alone for fear of worse reprisals. Even better for the student, they can make a media circus out of it and start wrecking reputations, which given how most school faculty "work" is a rather nice bonus.

And yes, I'll gladly face assault charges before ever allowing anyone to treat me like I was in high school ever again.

Hilarious emotional scarring aside, this doesn't actually solve anything. They'll just go bully someone else, and net bullying in the environment does not change (and may increase). The real issue is the lack of resolve or confidence in the system, which is largely bought about by it failing.

PS lol at nerd posturing

[Flagg]

Beating a bullies ass may make you feel better about yourself but it does dick all to solve the problem.

[eion]

Stark is quite right in that directing your attention at either the bully or the victim does very little, nor does a victim standing up to a bully and smacking them upside the head do much, besides providing the victim with imense personal satisfaction for a time.

The proper targets are the bystanders, the ones who see bullying and do nothing. In a school, these are the fellow students. That's why the most succesful anti-bullying campaigns go after these bystanders and convince them that unless they make bullying socially unacceptable, it'll just keep happening.

[Stark]

Indeed, many a workplace will have signs up everywhere saying 'if you see workplace bullying and do not step in, you are enabling it'. Attempting to change the culture that allows or encourages the behaviour is more effective than punching dudes in the face.

[spaceviking]

Yes, because its not like most bullying occurs in mandatory attendances environments, e.g. School.

So basically you just want kids to drop out of school to avoid their bullies?

That is a better solution than punching them in the face, which will only get them in trouble.

Welcome to being part of the problem. Sometime, violence is the answer. It's just as much a pack response as bulling itself is. You're reinforcing the problem while denying it's most useful answer in the name of making people feel good.

The victim will get in trouble anyway. If he or she tries the proper channels, all that will happen is the bully will get a slap on the wrist, then proceed with more, often worse, bullying. If the victim instead forces the issue, they'll be suspended if a student or have to justify themselves as an adult, in which self defense can be used. They bully will likely then leave them the hell alone for fear of worse reprisals. Even better for the student, they can make a media circus out of it and start wrecking reputations, which given how most school faculty "work" is a rather nice bonus.

And yes, I'll gladly face assault charges before ever allowing anyone to treat me like I was in high school ever again.

And what if that doesn't work? I don't know you, maybe you could successfully fight back against your bullies; but that is not always an option. If your attacker is more athletic and much larger than you they might actually enjoy it.

Now I can't speak from experience because I never saw this kind of hardcore bullying, but if bullying had easy solutions we would be using them. From what I read zero tolerance does not work because it limits justified self defense. Maybe treating bullies like adult criminals? but this might just turn assholes into career criminals (like how many american prisons only perpetuate the problem of crime).

[Emergent56]

Stark is quite right in that directing your attention at either the bully or the victim does very little, nor does a victim standing up to a bully and smacking them upside the head do much, besides providing the victim with imense personal satisfaction for a time.

The proper targets are the bystanders, the ones who see bullying and do nothing. In a school, these are the fellow students. That's why the most succesful anti-bullying campaigns go after these bystanders and convince them that unless they make bullying socially unacceptable, it'll just keep happening.

These two solutions (victims hitting bullies, and educational programs that go after bystanders) arenot mutually exclusive.

If you are being punched or kicked there's nothing wrong about fighting back, providing of course you don't do it in some completely wacked out manner (obviously, not savaging school bullies with a butcher knife in front of the maths teacher). Certainly if you do it it solves your problem (the bully goes off to beat on someone else), and if enough people do it, it... well, doesn't eliminate bullying, but discourages physical assault and probably replaces it with emotional abuse, badgering, etc. There's lots of awful things kids can do to each other that doesn't descend to actual physical violence - which is where the role of teachers and educators is.

[Eleas]

And what if that doesn't work? I don't know you, maybe you could successfully fight back against your bullies; but that is not always an option. If your attacker is more athletic and much larger than you they might actually enjoy it.

The forum should have a goddamn Like button installed just for this post.

If you are being punched or kicked there's nothing wrong about fighting back, providing of course you don't do it in some completely wacked out manner (obviously, not savaging school bullies with a butcher knife in front of the maths teacher). Certainly if you do it it solves your problem (the bully goes off to beat on someone else),

Allow me to present an alternative to your cozy little fantasy: you try it, then you get your ass kicked, and then all the bystanders ask you why you're such a goddamn pussy you couldn't even stand up for yourself in a man to man fight (just because they happen to outweigh you by 20 pounds of muscle). The bullies will make beating your ass into a biweekly event while the teachers will tut-tut and ask you why you chose to instigate physical conflict. That certainly solves the problem, and doesn't in any way reinforce the humiliation and anguish felt on part of the victim, who now has confirmation that he's indeed worthless.

and if enough people do it, it... well, doesn't eliminate bullying, but discourages physical assault and probably replaces it with emotional abuse, badgering, etc. There's lots of awful things kids can do to each other that doesn't descend to actual physical violence - which is where the role of teachers and educators is.

Or it continues without stopping even a beat, as it did when I was in school and mistakenly thought everyone's advice to fight back would be a solution.

[Emergent56]

Allow me to present an alternative to your cozy little fantasy:

And by fantasy you mean "experience". I lost quite a few fights. Certainly far more than I won (I won, between age 6 and 19, precisely... two fights, not exactly a pristine record of Ramboid heroism). But the rule seemed to be that if I fought, and did not immediately back down (and I certainly only did that when I was in serious pain, like when someone pulled a pain hold or something), people did that less.

Of course I never concluded - from the many fights I lost - that I was worthless. I merely concluded I lost a fight. (I do not claim to have been a hero - I did for a while suffer from self-esteem issues, but they had nothing to do with losing fights, and more with other things unrelated to this thread entirely.)

My experience is as valid as yours.

[Emergent56]

[I'm deliberately pointing out the ways in which my experience was not Ramboid so we can get past the typical Internet OH YOU THINK YOU ARE SO TOUGH thing]

[Eleas]

My experience is as valid as yours.

Possibly, but that's not what you said. In saying that there is "nothing wrong" in fighting back and that it will solve your problem by making the bully leave, thereby making a prediction echoing many similar ones. Ones that I accepted. Ones that put me in a hell in which the inmates all concluded I was the one to blame.

I fought back. I got slapped down. Then I got back up and did it all over again. That was a source of entertainment, not deterrence. Plus, of course, that it lost me all residual goodwill from teachers.

[I'm deliberately pointing out the ways in which my experience was not Ramboid so we can get past the typical Internet OH YOU THINK YOU ARE SO TOUGH thing]

That's appreciated.

[Emergent56]

Let me make an analogy.

If you are injured or fall ill, as a general rule it is a good idea to use your first-aid kid or take OTC medicine if it helps. No, it doesn't always help - some people are just naturally clumsy, or unlucky, or maybe too injured or ill for these things to help.

Which is why we have doctors, nurses, and ambulances.

But in the long term, society has health and safety programs, vaccination, and so forth that tackle disease and injuries pre-emptively.

That is to say, we have in our society three levels of problem resolution - personal, community, and policy-based.

The same occurs with violence:

If you are personally a victim of violence, it is generally accepted to be a good idea to resist.

If resistance proves unsuccessful or is not an option, you should contact a person of authority.

However society should also have long-term programs to mitigate bullying and other forms of violence, pre-emptively.

Obviously it's not possible for me to predict the actions of every bully in the universe, or indeed, any other person who is not me, but I don't see how my argument is somehow on its face not sensible.

[Eleas]

Which is why I contend that the solution to the problem does not lie in fighting back. In itself, it does not solve the underlying problem.

I think I get what you're saying now, though, and I agree that fighting back is an option you should have. You need to be able to defend yourself, should you be capable of doing so. What I'm objecting to is framing the issue in terms of "well, see, what the victim needs to do is stand up for himself". I realize now that it's not what you intended, but I feel that's where the problem starts: it leads to putting the onus on the victim and ignoring the prime cause of bullying, which is the environment enabling it.

[Emergent56]

This is absolutely not what I mean.

That is to say, no, I do not believe that it is a question of 'honor' where it is your 'duty' to fight back.

This is stupid. Of course it is nobody's duty - perhaps your specific assailant is stronger than you, or perhaps - my god! - you are scared. Being scared is totally legitimate and you certainly do not owe any vicious thug a fair fight (or a fight at all).

As a similar, and more grievous example, I think rape victims should resist rapists. But I do not think that our solution to rape ends at 'oh the women should shoot all the rapists'. The moral responsibility for any act of violence lies, first and foremost, on whoever commits it.

But I do think that it is best to encourage people to fight back if they can, and certainly not to have a culture inside the school that punishes people who fight back.

What we must remember is that a large proportion of bullying involves no physical violence at all.

[Eleas]

Agreed.

[Emergent56]

Just to elucidate on the original point a bit:

Successful (and even, to some extent, failed) resistance to violence, assuming it was justified) has a net benefit to all, as it imposes an increased cost (in the form of being beat up, or at least exerting extra effort or suffering some pain) on committing violent acts, thus discouraging them. This does not of course mean every specific, individual act of resistance has this effect (imagine I tried to fight off a bank robber but instead stumbled and fell over and broke my wrist - the bank robbers would laugh at me and maybe hurt me some more), but it is also wrong to say that resisting personally has no net public benefit.

The three are interlocking.

But back to our point, how do we even begin to deal with psychological, group bullying?

I have moved from some truly bad schools to a very good school, where bullying was pretty much a non-factor, but I cannot tell you for the life of me how teachers prevented it - perhaps simply through being good, dedicated people. Anyone on the forum have experience with the more complex methods involved?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I would say that instead of encouraging victims to fight back, make sure that those victims that chose to resist are not vilified by the figures of authority.

[amigocabal]

I would say that instead of encouraging victims to fight back, make sure that those victims that chose to resist are not vilified by the figures of authority.

And it would help if authorities enforced anti-bullying policies in an even-handed manner.

But what if authorities refuse to do so?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Then...replace the authorities (or the figures in charge at least) with those who abide by their stated policies?

EDIT: To clarify; if an authority (or authority figure) outright refuses to evenly apply a publicly stated policy than that person or organisation should not have any authority.