Solar power in Germany - Impressive start

[Justforfun000]

http://www.theidealistrevolution.com/go ... ld-record/

Going nuclear-free: Germany smashes solar power world record
December 23, 2012 Filed under Environment Posted by The Idealist


Germany’s solar power plants produced a record 22 gigawatts of energy on Friday, equivalent to the output of 20 nuclear plants. The country is already a world-leader in solar power and hopes to be free of nuclear energy by 2022.

The director of the Institute of the Renewable Energy Industry (IWR) in Muenster, northeast Germany, said the solar power delivered to the national grid on Saturday met 50 per cent of the nation’s energy quota.

“Never before anywhere has a country produced as much photovoltaic electricity. Germany came close to the 20 gigawatt (GW) mark a few times in recent weeks. But this was the first time we made it over,” Norbert Allnoch told Reuters news agency.

The German government decided to turn its back on nuclear energy last year after the Fukushima disaster and plans to be nuclear-free by 2022. Critics have rounded on the initiative, skeptical that renewable sources can meet the nation’s growing energy needs.

“This shows Germany is capable of meeting a large share of its electricity needs with solar power. It also shows Germany can do with fewer coal-burning power plants, gas-burning plants and nuclear plants,” stressed Allmoch.

Merkel’s government has invested large amounts of money in restructuring the nation’s energy infrastructure and weaning it off atomic energy. It has almost as much solar power energy units as the rest of the world combined and currently generates four per cent of its annual energy needs from the Sun.

Utilities and consumer groups have complained that increased use of solar energy will push up the price of electricity in Germany.

German tax payers currently shell out around $5 billion annually for solar energy, an Environmental Ministry report says. Chancellor Merkel has tried to slash prices but has been blocked by the German parliament.
Panels with photovoltaic cells of German company Bosch Solar Engery are pictured during the inauguration of the company′s new plant in Arndstadt near Erfurt, eastern Germany. (AFP Photo / Johannes Eisele)
Panels with photovoltaic cells of German company Bosch Solar Engery are pictured during the inauguration of the company’s new plant in Arndstadt near Erfurt, eastern Germany. (AFP Photo / Johannes Eisele)
Stumbling blocks on the path to ‘a greener future’

Germany is also planning to ratchet up its use of other renewable forms of energy in an attempt to compensate for its nuclear shortfall.

The government will capitalize on wind, solar and bio-mass as well as increased use of coal power stations to produce its power.

However, in spite of increased investment, Bundesnetzagentur, the country’s new energy regulator, has predicted widespread power cuts as the power grid is put under extra pressure this winter.

Bundesnetzagentur has said Germany will have an energy capacity gap of approximately 10 Gigawatts, equivalent to the output of 15 power stations.

In addition, critics have voiced fears that increased use of unreliable energy resources such as wind power and solar energy will put a lot of strain on the national grid because of fluctuations in output, making it very unstable.

Although Germany faces significant hurdles in its race towards a nuclear-free future, it still remains a world-leader in renewable energies.

[Zaune]

So... how are they planning to generate electricity overnight, or make up the shortfall when there's heavy cloud cover? Burn coal?

[Sky Captain]

When was that record set? If you look here the peak during last Friday was 1,3 GW (how suprising?). I bet they reached 22 GW during some day in late spring or summer.
It's not hard to reach high output during summer days with favorable weather conditions, hard part will be to store that power for use when sun don't shine.

[Sea Skimmer]

Enough solar for 50% of load for a small part of a day is making 4% of total load. That gives an idea of just how massively the effectiveness of solar drops off, and what an immense over capacity would be required even just to met daytime demand only. Never mind having any energy to store, somehow, for the night.

The plan right now is burn coal, Germany is moving ahead with projects for new coal plants, and increasing coal imports.

[Aaron MkII]

So their ditching nuclear for coal and solar...is it backwards day or something?

[ray245]

You are still going to end up emitting more greenhouse gas if you are going to use coal.

[Sky Captain]

So their ditching nuclear for coal and solar...is it backwards day or something?

If they want to go for solar then nuclear power plants have problems of changing output rapidly to acomodate variations in solar power generation so it is understandable they want coal and gas power plants because those can change output quickly to make up for solar power instability. Besides Germany have large coal reserves so coal power is cheap.

[ryacko]

So their ditching nuclear for coal and solar...is it backwards day or something?

If they want to go for solar then nuclear power plants have problems of changing output rapidly to acomodate variations in solar power generation so it is understandable they want coal and gas power plants because those can change output quickly to make up for solar power instability. Besides Germany have large coal reserves so coal power is cheap.

You are more likely to be exposed to radiationfrom coal power, along with particulate pollution.

And coal ash is far more dangerousand radioactive then nuclear waste.


I suppose lives are cheap. How many more must die in the name of clean energy?

[D.Turtle]

Lets just ignore the fact that no new coal plants are being built because of the Energiewende. Those,new coal plants being built were already in planning when the decision was made to phase out nuclear power in line with the planning made by the previous government.

Building new coal plants is still climactically useful if they are used to replace older, less efficient coal plants -which is exactly what is happening.

[Singular Intellect]

Lets just ignore the fact that no new coal plants are being built because of the Energiewende. Those,new coal plants being built were already in planning when the decision was made to phase out nuclear power in line with the planning made by the previous government.

Building new coal plants is still climactically useful if they are used to replace older, less efficient coal plants -which is exactly what is happening.

It's going to be very interesting to see what happens in Germany when solar completely drops the need for subsidies. As I've linked to earlier, at least one company has already achieved that and others will soon follow. So far as I know(I might be wrong), solar is the first current energy source that will actually be entirely subsidy free and sold purely on its own economical viability. This is a critical aspect to it that will allow it to explode in growth throughout the world and it will be unstoppable. Good luck trying to stop the selling of cheap energy to everyone or making empty promises of other 'solutions' that are only getting more expensive and have public relations issues on par with Hitler.

[ryacko]

Lets just ignore the fact that no new coal plants are being built because of the Energiewende. Those,new coal plants being built were already in planning when the decision was made to phase out nuclear power in line with the planning made by the previous government.

Building new coal plants is still climactically useful if they are used to replace older, less efficient coal plants -which is exactly what is happening.

What evidence that that same lump of coal burnt in a newer plant produces... less CO2?
I thought it would create less particulate pollution, which would increase global warming and reduce respiratory issues.

[Stark]

If a plant uses less fuel to create the same amount of energy, its probably producing less waste per unit of energy. Older plants can be much less efficient than modern ones.

[Sky Captain]

It's going to be very interesting to see what happens in Germany when solar completely drops the need for subsidies. As I've linked to earlier, at least one company has already achieved that and others will soon follow. So far as I know(I might be wrong), solar is the first current energy source that will actually be entirely subsidy free and sold purely on its own economical viability. This is a critical aspect to it that will allow it to explode in growth throughout the world and it will be unstoppable. Good luck trying to stop the selling of cheap energy to everyone or making empty promises of other 'solutions' that are only getting more expensive and have public relations issues on par with Hitler.

What could hapen is they got very cheap energy for daytime hours, but when it gets dark energy price skyrocket, because fossil generation must be turned on, energy released from storage systems and those things cost money even if solar panels cost nothing which they don't.

[Singular Intellect]

It's going to be very interesting to see what happens in Germany when solar completely drops the need for subsidies. As I've linked to earlier, at least one company has already achieved that and others will soon follow. So far as I know(I might be wrong), solar is the first current energy source that will actually be entirely subsidy free and sold purely on its own economical viability. This is a critical aspect to it that will allow it to explode in growth throughout the world and it will be unstoppable. Good luck trying to stop the selling of cheap energy to everyone or making empty promises of other 'solutions' that are only getting more expensive and have public relations issues on par with Hitler.

What could hapen is they got very cheap energy for daytime hours, but when it gets dark energy price skyrocket, because fossil generation must be turned on, energy released from storage systems and those things cost money even if solar panels cost nothing which they don't.

That's why we're working on advanced grid level battery storage for surplus energy generated by renewables. Such batteries will be cheap, reliable, easy to build & maintain, built using abundant based materials, highly scalable, etc ,etc.

Never mind the countless other innovations going on in the batteries department and other storage methods. The numerous methods and technologies for storing power are fucking staggering and amazing. There is no shortage of energy and there is no shortage of ways to store it.

[Zaune]

We can't make decisions based on stuff we're "working on". I'm not saying Donald Sadoway et al's work doesn't have a lot of potential, in fact it's the only really credible example of a potentially game-changing new battery technology that I've seen to date. But they don't expect to have a commercial prototype until 2014, let alone a production line, and I'm not inclined to get excited until there's some independent verification of how well the technology actually works.

[Singular Intellect]

We can't make decisions based on stuff we're "working on". I'm not saying Donald Sadoway et al's work doesn't have a lot of potential, in fact it's the only really credible example of a potentially game-changing new battery technology that I've seen to date. But they don't expect to have a commercial prototype until 2014, let alone a production line, and I'm not inclined to get excited until there's some independent verification of how well the technology actually works.

That's why conventional power generation technologies aren't yet shelved and why they're still being built and used.

I'm 100% for renewables (particularly solar) and absolutely convinced they will wipe the board against other forms of power generation, including nuclear. This doesn't mean I'm suggesting we shut down all coal and nuclear plants tomorrow and spit on them while gambling the future on one path, regardless of how promising and realistic it is.

[Sky Captain]

That's why we're working on advanced grid level battery storage for surplus energy generated by renewables. Such batteries will be cheap, reliable, easy to build & maintain, built using abundant based materials, highly scalable, etc ,etc.

Never mind the countless other innovations going on in the batteries department and other storage methods. The numerous methods and technologies for storing power are fucking staggering and amazing. There is no shortage of energy and there is no shortage of ways to store it.

That battery uses antimonywhich is fairly rare, only a bit more abundant than silver. World total production is only 135 000 tons. To build up battery capacity to store just only few days worth of energy consumption for Germany they would need probably millions of tons of that stuff.
They'd better come up with battery chemistry that use stuff that is produced in millions of tons.

[Welf]

That battery uses antimonywhich is fairly rare, only a bit more abundant than silver. World total production is only 135 000 tons. To build up battery capacity to store just only few days worth of energy consumption for Germany they would need probably millions of tons of that stuff.
They'd better come up with battery chemistry that use stuff that is produced in millions of tons.

Fortunately they will have to solve the problem of batteries for Hybrid and electro cars anyway. If two parallel industries, and mostly government controlled, one mostly private, work on it, I'm sure there will be a solution.

I think I once heard the idea to combine bot, and use cars for energy storage. AN interesting idea, since those are giant resource, and they stand around useless most of the day anyway.

[D.Turtle]

What evidence that that same lump of coal burnt in a newer plant produces... less CO2?
I thought it would create less particulate pollution, which would increase global warming and reduce respiratory issues.

You idiotic sanctimonious shit. Think for even a second or two and the answer will come even to someone as stupid as you.

Hint: It has something to do with the amount of coal you need to burn to get the same amount of energy.

[Grumman]

I think I once heard the idea to combine bot, and use cars for energy storage. AN interesting idea, since those are giant resource, and they stand around useless most of the day anyway.

That seems a rather poor idea. You can save some storage capacity by charging the cars during the day rather than storing the energy and then charging the cars during the night, but one of the times they aren't standing around useless is the morning commute. Taking energy from the battery overnight leaves you with a flat battery in the morning.

[LaCroix]

Also, use of car batteries as grid storage would make them burn out at a much higher rate, since they aren't built for a constant charge-decharge cycle.

[Singular Intellect]

Also, use of car batteries as grid storage would make them burn out at a much higher rate, since they aren't built for a constant charge-decharge cycle.

That would depend entirely on what kind of batteries you're talking. Current ones, sure. Future ones with hundreds of thousands of charge/discharge cycles and high energy density? Not so much of a problem at that point.

[aussiemuscle308]

Germany’s solar power plants produced a record 22 gigawatts of energy on Friday

meanwhile, in Australia, the NSW govt has cancelled the solar rebate because of the high take up of solar has blown their budget for the program.

[Singular Intellect]

Germany’s solar power plants produced a record 22 gigawatts of energy on Friday

meanwhile, in Australia, the NSW govt has cancelled the solar rebate because of the high take up of solar has blown their budget for the program.

That's one of the 'problems' with solar. People don't realize how damn fast it can be implemented. Gigawatts of power can be installed in very short time periods when there's a rush to eat up incentives offered by the government.

Once incentives and subsidies are not required and the cost of solar starts dipping below grid power cost (already happened/happening in areas), that kind of growth and rapid deployment will explode across the global market. This is one of the reasons solar will wipe the board against other forms of power and we'll transition to a solar dominate energy infrastructure vastly faster than people expect.

[Zaune]

That's one of the 'problems' with solar. People don't realize how damn fast it can be implemented. Gigawatts of power can be installed in very short time periods when there's a rush to eat up incentives offered by the government.

Once incentives and subsidies are not required and the cost of solar starts dipping below grid power cost (already happened/happening in areas), that kind of growth and rapid deployment will explode across the global market. This is one of the reasons solar will wipe the board against other forms of power and we'll transition to a solar dominate energy infrastructure vastly faster than people expect.

You need to take a vacation in England from November to February, or at least stop migrating south for the winter or whatever the hell you're doing. I haven't seen a patch of blue sky for nearly a week! If we had solar panels on our roof here (landlady looked into it but couldn't get subsidies) then we'd be lucky if there was current being generated at all, the weather's been so bad lately. And that's without taking into account the 4:30PM sunsets.

However efficiently we can collect and store solar energy, the total amount to collect is still subject to circumstances beyond our control.

(Sorry, I'm slightly bitter about this given the sheer awfulness of the weather right now.)