Effects of pausing the Female Cycle

[Korto]

I thought of a useful item for a female character for a fantasy story (or arc of same. One can dream). She's a bit of a female Conan, lives big, enjoys life, wine, fighting, song and sex.
Now to prevent the obvious problem of "Why doesn't she get pregnant every few months" without being forced to make her exclusively lesbian or anti-vaginal-sex, I thought of her acquiring a magical item early that pauses her cycle, keeps it at the precise point, and "settings" of when the item is put on. So the types and ratios of hormones being released, and anything else in her reproductive system, stay fixed at that point.

My question is (and why it's here, and not in Fantasy ) what would be the short (days and weeks) and long (months and years) term effects of this on the woman?

I think that if it was put on at the height of fertility, when an egg had just been released, then no more eggs would be released after that one, as no new signal would be sent, that last egg could still be fertilised but with the uterus not moving on, then the pregnancy would miscarry early. The woman wouldn't menstruate, and the uterus would stay fully lined (for as long as the talisman is worn). As I recall, women are more sexually interested in this time, and according to my wife also more aggressive, so those effects I guess would stay. My wife believes that testosterone is released during this time - what effect would that have long term on her appearance?

Or the horror option, it's applied while she has PMS. Assuming the order to shed has gone out, there'll be one final menses, but then the signal will keep on being sent despite there being nothing left to shed.
Would the psychological effects be a permanent feature, or would the fact that the hormones are no longer shifting mean that they would settle?

[Lagmonster]

Why don't you just make her infertile due to a natural disability? There are a number of mutations and conditions you could employ that would do the trick without disabling her otherwise, and if she lives in a fantasy world, you could just invent a mutation out of thin air. You wouldn't even have to explain it in depth other than "can't get pregnant, is normal otherwise". If you need her to get pregnant later, you can always whip out the magic penis amulets *then*, or select a condition wherein the odds of getting pregnant were staggeringly low, and then make her lucky. If nothing else, you'd have a shitload less explaining to do than to account for where and how she got it, how she replaces it if it gets lost on an adventure, or make it a crutch for her.

[LaCroix]

Why not use AIS

In a non-medical society, she'd never know...
Or a mid-wive yould have checked her when her period never came, and found out that the important stuff was missing...

Which would lead to her never marrying, for she wasn't a true woman, etc, etc.

[Korto]

Serves me right for rambling in the OP with tangential garbage. To clarify the actual question:
"What would be the short and long term effects, physically and mentally, of freezing a woman's cycle at different points, so the hormones produced (and any other related details) remain permanently at that point?"

To address the tangents:
1) As in her backstory she had a child once, she could not have been born infertile. I wont go into her backstory publicly for obvious reasons. She could have been rendered infertile after, of course, however...
2) I want there to be an undercurrent (not an overt point, but a covert feeling) that a woman is entitled to "sleep around", and use contraception to avoid becoming pregnant while doing so, if she wants to. Making her infertile I feel will damage that feeling, as it creates a counter-current of "she's only doing it because she's not a whole woman and can't have children, so she's acting out"

While I could just have a magical device of "She doesn't become pregnant because of magic, and that's it, end of story", real-world women have to deal with problems with modern contraception, and I feel it'll make my character more "accessible" if there's side-effects to her method, too.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Ah, you want the undercurrent of empowering women instead of restricting men, a modern feminist thing?


Well, if its anything like a depo and such, there can be complications, possibly an extra severe menstrual cycle if she skips a dosage or isnt exposed to the item for long enough.


There are always potential side effects to doing something that fucks with a person's hormones, so unless you want to magic them away, just make sure its a steady and asured dosage and such.


What tech era is this? Because there are social and economic reasons for advocating high birthrates, although if you have run out ofbroom, and are running out of affordable food and children are extraoridnarily expensive, that changes things.


But is this is pre-gunpowder age and to a certain degree pre nuclear age, she will be looked upon as a anomaly. However, you could have her give the outwardly justification of difficult labor and childbirth.


But a Medieval or earlier time and she and her society would be fairly against such. In general. "But muh Rome" and what happened to them? Had manpower problems and were forced to recruit barbarians. It eventually got so bad they were forced to let entire barbarian nations in and then they were screwed. Rome died in part due to not having enough children being born and made. There are other reasons, but this isbone of them.

India and China didnt have that problem. And lasted into the modern age.


So it depends on when, where and why. 1880 equivalent ofvthe West and it really wont matter. But most women either wont envy her or spitefully be against in the style of "Good enough for me. You think you are better than me, bitch?". 1920s and on, in terms of social development in attitude towards women, it wont be much of an issue.


Just keep in mind to not portray any and all ofbher potential defenders of her lifestyle in story as being entirely ecause they legitimately respect her decisions and are fully altruistic.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Oh you want hard, biological effects. It could effect the type of man she is attracted to thanks to hormonal patterns. Froze when she is ovulating and she will be more inclined towards rugged manly men, not necessarily assholes, when she is almost menstruating, towards more feminine looking guys who are a bit softer and nicer and accepting in personality.


Thats some very rough guidelines. Of course, certain people inverse would be highly cynical of her being always after rugged manly men and hanging out with them and acting like them. IE, shes doing it for easy access.


But for female empowerment, so what? If shes being a tomboy to be closer to men she likes and have easier access, thats her choice and a shrew one. Although screwing friends is always dramatime. And she likely legitimately enjoys the lifestyle, so theres that arguement.


She enjoys the lifestyle and the men who live this way. Thats good enough. Feminist empowerment movements are about women NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE TO justify themselves or just not having to justify themselves.


Any ideas helping?

[Losonti Tokash]

Why not Just use condoms?

[Broomstick]

I think that if it was put on at the height of fertility, when an egg had just been released, then no more eggs would be released after that one, as no new signal would be sent, that last egg could still be fertilised but with the uterus not moving on, then the pregnancy would miscarry early. The woman wouldn't menstruate, and the uterus would stay fully lined (for as long as the talisman is worn).

This is sort of what the Pill does - it mimics the hormones of early pregnancy so the body doesn't ovulate. Long term effects would match that of the Pill, which means everything from "no noticeable effect" to "catastrophic stroke" is possible, with the latter fortunately being rare.

As I recall, women are more sexually interested in this time, and according to my wife also more aggressive, so those effects I guess would stay.

That's going to vary widely from woman to woman. Although when considered statistically in a large population hormones to tend to influence mood and sexual partner choices exact effects can not be predicted in any one individual.

My wife believes that testosterone is released during this time - what effect would that have long term on her appearance?

Probably nothing. It's perfectly normal for women to have testosterone in their system. More important is the proportion of female hormones to male ones. If the magic whatsit creates the hormonal balance of early pregnancy there's enough female hormones being made to block any masculinizing effects of testosterone.

If, however, it works by shutting down the female hormone signaling system - essentially replicating menopause so ovulation does not occur - then the effects would mimic those of menopause where it's not uncommon for women, particularly of certain ethnic groups, to sprout fuzz on chin and upper lip, develop thinning hair or baldness, and so forth. It will also tend towards weakening her bones long term, so maybe not so healthy long term for an active warrior woman.

Or the horror option, it's applied while she has PMS. Assuming the order to shed has gone out, there'll be one final menses, but then the signal will keep on being sent despite there being nothing left to shed.

Not every woman turns into Ms. Crabby Bitch before her period. Again, this will depend on the woman. However, if she IS prone to the angry sort of PMS and she's "locked" there that would be... unpleasant. She might also experience headaches, constipation, and water retention as well. I don't' think any of that would improve her mood.

Would the psychological effects be a permanent feature, or would the fact that the hormones are no longer shifting mean that they would settle?

It depends.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Why not Just use condoms?

Dont always work for a variety of reasons. Especially the ones stapled on the bulletin board in college and certain highschools.

[Stark]

Certainly a big problem in the average fantasy setting, those public highschools and their sex education programs.

The obvious answer is 'she's a hemaphrodite and thus infertile', but in this case your story has already been written (about nine million times).

[Dominarch's Hope]

Still, condoms have never been and may never be an absolute, especially thanks to factors like human stupidity. Which was the jist of the post.


Other than that, it shouldnt be too much of a noticeable difference as long as it keeps going. Now, once its removed and then possibly put back on, there could be some issues. But thats it.

[Stark]

Go paint 'virgin' on yourself somewhere else, dude.

I'm not sure if the idea of having 'side effects' to contraception for the specific reason of making this 'more accessible' is laudable, though. What's the point - that to live a common perception of a 'male life', the woman has to engage in risk-taking behaviour? Isn't the whole point of the sexual risk being unfair unavoidable in this way?

Just counterpoint it with other examples if you want to 'legitimise' your character choices. Literally any of the ideas in the thread would work (well, not dh's) if handled well, but that's your job.

[Dominarch's Hope]

???

Stark, do you honestly beleive condoms and such work all the time, especially if improperly used or not used completely?

But it doesnt matter, the hurr durr virgin parade is about to begin, isnt it?


Oh and he is specifically imagining what is essentially a female Conan, he even said so. And birth control (of the suggested type) doesnt do jack against STD's, so whoring around for kicks is still risk taking for everybody, and a fairly equal risk male or female, with the exception of HPV and its effects.

[Stark]

The only one showing off their hilarious 'knowledge' of condoms here is you. None of this would have happened if you'd just stopped.

Oh and he is specifically imagining what is essentially a female Conan, he even said so. And birth control (of the suggested type) doesnt do jack against STD's, so whoring around for kicks is still risk taking for everybody, and a fairly equal risk male or female, with the exception of HPV and its effects.

I'm not sure why I'm bothering, but he is ALSO aware (not being a cretin) that the risk is obviously higher for women who can become pregnant and thus have to actually live with the results of this lifestyle... instead of just up and leaving like billions of men throughout history. The entire thread exists because of this important sexual distinction. He obviously doesn't want his character eating dirt or drowning babies (as he appears to have a possibly misguided agenda of sexual equality) and thus wants to find 'accessible' ways to have his narrative cake and eat it too.

Were you aware that only women could become pregnant?

[Broomstick]

Oh and he is specifically imagining what is essentially a female Conan, he even said so. And birth control (of the suggested type) doesnt do jack against STD's, so whoring around for kicks is still risk taking for everybody, and a fairly equal risk male or female, with the exception of HPV and its effects.

Uh... no, HPV carries risk for both men and women. Where do you think genital warts on a penis come from?

[Dominarch's Hope]

I didnt know men could get cancer from it like women. Definately not to the same rate. Assuming hetero...apparently...http://www.cdc.gov/hpv/cancer.html



Stark are you just trolling now? And condoms dont protect from all STDs anyway, see Herpes.

[Korto]

OK, I actually said a bit of a female Conan, and yes, Conan is where I pulled the starting inspiration from. I found Red Sonja too angsty (only ever read one book, because of that), and I wanted someone with more joy in life.
I've deliberately not gone into the backstory, plot, much about her character, or anything else to do with the story because I've taken the warning given on this site to heart about the consequences of loose lips. Perhaps too much to heart. (shrug)

I will say she's not meant to be someone who fucks a table of guys every night and a football team on weekends, and I don't want to get on a soapbox about "gender equality". She's just a strong woman who, if she sees someone she likes, doesn't hesitate, and I wanted to avoid the "Fridge logic" (yes, I've been spending time on TV Tropes) of someone wondering why, when she spent time with Swordsman Sam in Salzbury, Angry Achmed in Antilople, and Gold-Tooth Gareth in Geirdon, she's never fallen pregnant. In my personal experience if measures aren't being taken a woman reliably becomes pregnant within flippin' days.

This device is an idea I had, and then I wondered about the possible consequences of the item, and whether those consequences could improve the story. If I feel they wont, they'll get dropped so far and so fast Moria's pit wont be deep enough. To parrot Stark, that's my job.
If this device is used (and that's if, it's still only an idea), it may be something that's used by prostitutes where she gets it from, and wearing it would be looked down on. Again, if I finally decide the item wont help the story, it will also get dropped.

As for condoms..
1) The guys she's attracted to are unlikely to go for them. The kind of men who would be more empathetic on the need for "protection" she's not attracted to.
2) She's not going to be interested in fucking around with condoms in the middle of a sexual escapade. The things are a pain in real life, made out of latex. God knows what they're like made of intestine, fine leather, or whatever.
3) Possibly most importantly - they may not exist. In the real world (according to Wikipedia. Leave me alone), there were definitely condoms back in 1642, but their existence before then is uncertain. Whether they exist in her world is another matter.

Talking about disease, I don't know if I'll go that far. It's meant to be Heroic Fantasy, after all. Maybe there'll be some mention in some story about a problem, solved by a pouch of florins to a Healer and some bloke getting a right beating, but I'm not inclined that way at present.

No-ones suggested Occlusive pessaries yet. Which would be another possibility, and maybe better than the magical amulet.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Glad I could help. And in High Fantasy, I suspect a certain type of potion to be discreetly popular.


Anyways, makes sense. Glad I could help. Yeah, not all woman want to go through the drama of forcing men to put on condoms and she could very well enjoy it more.


About the nonexistent thing, I beleive diaphrams have had a longer history in one form or another. And they are more discreet than say, a belt of some sort.

[Broomstick]

No-ones suggested Occlusive pessaries yet. Which would be another possibility, and maybe better than the magical amulet.

In real life I used the sponge for a number of years with no resulting pregnancies. It might be practical for your gal. Sponges or sponge-like stuff were available in the ancient world, and a liquid-based spermicide is plausible with that level of tech. My experience is that men aren't aware of them during normal intercourse although, reportedly, there is an awful taste during oral sex. However, in the context of the typical Heroic Fantasy I don't see the sort of men she goes for wanting to chow down on a woman's taco so it will likely be a non-issue.

[LadyTevar]

There is also the option of a low-tech route: herbs. Certain herbs brewed as a tea taken regularly, and no babies. Another tea taken when you might be pregnant as an abortificant.
My own research has shown pennyroyal can be used as an abortificant, although I was making minor teas that I gave to my cats for their fleas. Pennyroyal poisons any parasite that feeds on the body, which includes fetuses.

However, if shes' had one child, there's a far easier way to leave her unable to get pregnant: a simple infection post-partium. Even in the modern day there is a risk of infection, and it can leave the vagina or the uterus too scarred for a embryo to implant.

[Dominarch's Hope]

I beleive that flows into the sterility issue. He wants it ti be that she can clearly have them, but chooses not too.

Then again, he isnt sure just yet. So yeah.

So sponge and diaphram. Tell me, did you apply spermicide into the sponge as well? Just curious.

Also keep in mind that herbs are great, the Romans even made one go extinct because it was so good, but you can run out of them or have the supply disappear, especially in High Fantasy.


And magic can easily make the 99% effective into a flatout 100% effective for birth control. Thing is, it means that societies with common access to this but high birth rates remaining means they have actively chosen to be against it in most cases. Either the women are pro-babies or...something a little darker.

[Broomstick]

So sponge and diaphram. Tell me, did you apply spermicide into the sponge as well? Just curious.

Our world's contraceptive sponges have the spermicide already incorporated into them, but in a fantasy setting where she would probably be making her own (or using the services of a trusted apothecary) having a separate spermicide in, say, a firmly corked bottle would prevent it from drying out, or perhaps she has an herb mixture she adds water too/makes into a tea/whatever to saturate the sponge. For that matter, the Today brand sponge required the user to wet it thoroughly before insertion to activate the spermicide.

And magic can easily make the 99% effective into a flatout 100% effective for birth control. Thing is, it means that societies with common access to this but high birth rates remaining means they have actively chosen to be against it in most cases. Either the women are pro-babies or...something a little darker.

Most women in most societies want babies. If you're talking about a pre-industrial society making babies is extremely important. On the flip side, both hunter-gatherer societies and some of those same pre-industrial societies also practice birth control/family planning, often in the form of infanticide. This may be due to natural disaster - during famine or drought newborns might be eliminated in favor of using scarce resources for the already existing people. Some societies have killed all but one of any group of multiple births (seen most frequently with hunter-gatherers in marginal areas where it's difficult enough to raise one infant, much less multiples). Deformed newborns are frequently killed/abandoned/exposed. Or it could be accepted that warrior women don't bear children in this hypothetical world.

The "save all babies" meme is a feature of Abrahamic religions, most pagan ones in the ancient world accepted the notion that there were times when infants/children were not desirable however much they were needed over the long haul.

[Dominarch's Hope]

You know logically, it would be "All Eggs are sacred" since sperm has 99% casualties to begin with. Of course, that wouldnt be sufficiently male dominated...


As to the first paragraph, is it mildly excusable that I didnt have the specifics commited to memory since...its not...particularly relevant to my personal health?


Will read rest later. Got to go.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Talking about disease, I don't know if I'll go that far. It's meant to be Heroic Fantasy, after all. Maybe there'll be some mention in some story about a problem, solved by a pouch of florins to a Healer and some bloke getting a right beating, but I'm not inclined that way at present.

One thing; if you are trying to make things logically hold together, then presuming they have some understanding of and ability to cure diseases would help explain why it's socially acceptable in the first place that she can be a contraceptive-amulet-using warrior woman. Namely, they'd have a lot lower death rate and greater life expectancy than the real preindustrial era - something much closer to modern - and wouldn't have the same need to coerce every woman into as many pregnancies as possible.

The "save all babies" meme is a feature of Abrahamic religions, most pagan ones in the ancient world accepted the notion that there were times when infants/children were not desirable however much they were needed over the long haul.

I recall reading a while back that ancient Egypt was considered weird in its time because they always tried to keep babies alive, including on occasion unwanted babies from other neighboring cultures that had been left out to die of exposure. Often as slaves, but alive.

[Korto]

There is also the option of a low-tech route: herbs. Certain herbs brewed as a tea taken regularly, and no babies. Another tea taken when you might be pregnant as an abortificant.
My own research has shown pennyroyal can be used as an abortificant, although I was making minor teas that I gave to my cats for their fleas. Pennyroyal poisons any parasite that feeds on the body, which includes fetuses.

However, if shes' had one child, there's a far easier way to leave her unable to get pregnant: a simple infection post-partium. Even in the modern day there is a risk of infection, and it can leave the vagina or the uterus too scarred for a embryo to implant.

And the last shall be first - Yes, her not having children is to be a matter of choice, not a forced decision. This is at least partially because if this ever gets published (a chance on the order of me winning Powerball, it's unlikely enough I'd even finish the story, but no reason to burn bridges just because I don't think I'll ever be crossing them), I don't want someone arguing on some web-site that she only acts the way she does because she can't actually have children and therefore she's "not a true woman" (with all due credit to Paula).

However, with viable mundane alternatives being pointed out, the amulet is feeling more like magic for magic's sake, which I'm a bit meh on.
I did at one stage wonder about herbs, then I figured that given the unreliability of herbal medicine (the same weight of plant can have different doses of ingredient, depending on the season, recent weather, location, and just because, and that's before you get to preparation), that it would probably be too unreliable as a contraceptive, varying from ineffective to debilitating. I imagined it would have been used as an abortifact, where the dosage would range from debilitating to lethal. Of course, that was just a guess on my part, and I could be wrong.

The sponge is attractive, but I got to thinking. My wife uses an IUD; it's great. No fuss, no bother, she's effectively sterile until it's removed (except for one time she got pregnant anyway, goddamn useless bit of plastic, but other then that...) What if they got a T shaped bone from some unfortunate critter, soaked it in vinegar to make it all flexible (and sterile, incidentally, but whether they realise that is another matter), and used that as an IUD. I can mention it off-handedly once, and never have to worry about whether she can get her supply of spermicide again.
There may be problems to having an animal bone stuck up your uterus, but if so I'm sure someone here can tell me.

PS- I've gotten the impression, LotA, that for much of human civilisation people weren't as panicked about having babies as you give me the impression you think. I read in a (medieval? Renaissance?) history book that a big reason peasants married late was to cut down on the number of children; also there's history of attempts at birth control for thousands of years.