Richard III skeleton find confirmed

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Dartzap
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Richard III skeleton find confirmed

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If you have a hunch....go with it!
Richard III dig: DNA confirms bones are king's
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A skeleton found beneath a Leicester car park has been confirmed as that of English king Richard III.
Experts from the University of Leicester said DNA from the bones matched that of descendants of the monarch's family.

Lead archaeologist Richard Buckley, from the University of Leicester, told a press conference to applause: "Beyond reasonable doubt it's Richard."
Richard, killed in battle in 1485, will be reinterred in Leicester Cathedral.

Mr Buckley said the bones had been subjected to "rigorous academic study" and had been carbon dated to a period from 1455-1540.

Dr Jo Appleby, an osteo-archaeologist from the university's School of Archaeology and Ancient History, revealed the bones were of a man in his late 20s or early 30s. Richard was 32 when he died.
His skeleton had suffered 10 injuries, including eight to the skull, at around the time of death. Two of the skull wounds were potentially fatal.

One was a "slice" removing a flap of bone, the other was caused by bladed weapon which went through and hit the opposite side of the skull - a depth of more than 10cm (4ins).
'Humiliation injuries'

Dr Appleby said: "Both of these injuries would have caused an almost instant loss of consciousness and death would have followed quickly afterwards.
"In the case of the larger wound, if the blade had penetrated 7cm into the brain, which we cannot determine from the bones, death would have been instantaneous."
Other wounds included slashes or stabs to the face and the side of the head. There was also evidence of "humiliation" injuries, including a pelvic wound likely to have been caused by an upward thrust of a weapon, through the buttock.

Richard III was portrayed as deformed by some Tudor historians and indeed the skeleton's spine is badly curved, a condition known as scoliosis.
However, there was no trace of a withered arm or other abnormalities described in the more extreme characterisations of the king.
Missing princes

Without the scoliosis, which experts believe developed during teenage years, he would have been about 5ft 8ins (1.7m) tall, but the curvature would have made him appear "considerably" shorter.
Dr Appleby said: "The analysis of the skeleton proved that it was an adult male but was an unusually slender, almost feminine, build for a man.
"Taken as a whole, the skeletal evidence provides a highly convincing case for identification as Richard III."

Richard was a royal prince until the death of his brother Edward IV in 1483. Appointed as protector of his nephew, Edward V, Richard instead assumed the reins of power.
Edward and his brother Richard, known as the Princes in the Tower, disappeared soon after. Rumours circulated they had been murdered on the orders of their uncle.
Challenged by Henry Tudor, Richard was killed at Bosworth in 1485 after only two years on the throne.

DNA trail

He was given a hurried burial beneath the church of Greyfriars in the centre of Leicester.

Mr Buckley said the grave was clumsily cut, with sloping sides and too short for the body, forcing the head forward.
"There was no evidence of a coffin or shroud which would have left the bones in a more compact position.
"Unusually, the arms are crossed and this could be an indication the body was buried with the wrists still tied," he added.

Greyfriars church was demolished during the Reformation in the 16th Century and over the following centuries its exact location was forgotten.

However, a team of enthusiasts and historians managed to trace the likely area - and, crucially, after painstaking genealogical research, they found a 17th-generation descendant of Richard's sister with whose DNA they could compare any remains.

Joy Ibsen, from Canada, died several years ago but her son, Michael, who now works in London, provided a sample.

The researchers were fortunate as, while the DNA they were looking for was in all Joy Ibsen's offspring, it is only handed down through the female line and her only daughter has no children. The line was about to stop.

Tomb plans

But the University of Leicester's experts had other problems.

Dr Turi King, project geneticist, said there had been concern DNA in the bones would be too degraded: "The question was could we get a sample of DNA to work with, and I am extremely pleased to tell you that we could."

She added: "There is a DNA match between the maternal DNA of the descendants of the family of Richard III and the skeletal remains we found at the Greyfriars dig.
"In short, the DNA evidence points to these being the remains of Richard III."

In August 2012, an excavation began in a city council car park - the only open space remaining in the likely area - which quickly identified buildings connected to the church.
The bones were found in the first days of the dig and were eventually excavated under forensic conditions.

Details of the reburial ceremony have yet to be released, but Philippa Langley from the Richard III Society said plans for a tomb were well advanced.

She said of the discovery of Richard's skeleton: "I'm totally thrilled, I'm overwhelmed to be honest, it's been a long hard journey. I mean today as we stand it's been nearly four years.
"It's the culmination of a lot of hard work. I think, as someone said to me earlier, it's just the end of the beginning.

"We're going to completely reassess Richard III, we're going to completely look at all the sources again, and hopefully there's going to be a new beginning for Richard as well."
Truly we can now claim to have the world champion of hide-and-seek.

Whoops, forgot we had a history forum, move if needed!
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Esquire
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Re: Richard III skeleton find confirmed

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Genetics question - after 17 generations, how much of Richard III's* DNA could possibly be left in his descendants?

*You know what I mean.
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Re: Richard III skeleton find confirmed

Post by Executor32 »

Since in this case we're talking about his (or rather, his mother's) mitochondrial DNA, nearly all of it. In most organisms, humans included, mtDNA is passed down in its entirety from the mother to her children with no contribution from the father. So, all the matrilineal descendents of Richard's mother will have the same mtDNA, save for whatever random mutations build up over the generations. The mutation rate for mtDNA is higher than for nuclear DNA, but it can still be used to reliably trace the maternal line back hundreds of generations.
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Re: Richard III skeleton find confirmed

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Esquire wrote:Genetics question - after 17 generations, how much of Richard III's* DNA could possibly be left in his descendants?

*You know what I mean.
It is not hard .5^17

But that is not what they used. They used mitochondrial DNA from his female relatives, which means All Of It (Molari), barring mutation.

That said *braces for impact*

He really should be buried in a catholic ceremony at York Minster. He paid for numerous chantries there, the most well funded of which was at York proper, which probably indicated where he wanted to be interred (barring Westminster anyway. IIRC that is where english monarchs of the time period were buried), or at the very least his favorite group of monks ever who he trusted to pray him out of purgatory. Speaking of purgatory and monks, he was catholic. You wouldn't give your protestant grandfather a catholic burial, now would you?
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Re: Richard III skeleton find confirmed

Post by Tiriol »

So we have finally found the place where Edmund and the rest of the gang dumbed his uncle's body.

I followed the news leading up to this: although it appears that the historians were quite sure the bones would be the earthly remains of the King, they couldn't be entirely sure. And then the news hit about 8 hours later that it was confirmed. Must have been exciting for them, really.
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Re: Richard III skeleton find confirmed

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

Esquire wrote:Genetics question - after 17 generations, how much of Richard III's* DNA could possibly be left in his descendants?

*You know what I mean.
Point is, DNA is not "diluted" or what have you; it's copied and passed on whole.
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Re: Richard III skeleton find confirmed

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:That said *braces for impact*

He really should be buried in a catholic ceremony at York Minster. He paid for numerous chantries there, the most well funded of which was at York proper, which probably indicated where he wanted to be interred (barring Westminster anyway. IIRC that is where english monarchs of the time period were buried), or at the very least his favorite group of monks ever who he trusted to pray him out of purgatory. Speaking of purgatory and monks, he was catholic. You wouldn't give your protestant grandfather a catholic burial, now would you?
I think that's a good idea. Ok, he wasn't the nicest bloke, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't get a decent burial.
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Re: Richard III skeleton find confirmed

Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

The British monarchy loses its shit over Catholicism, though. From what I understand there's been some recent talk about lifting the ban on Catholicism in the monarchy, but it hasn't gone anywhere.
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Re: Richard III skeleton find confirmed

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:The British monarchy loses its shit over Catholicism, though. From what I understand there's been some recent talk about lifting the ban on Catholicism in the monarchy, but it hasn't gone anywhere.
Good point. It would be a real shame if they made a big fuss over this.
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Re: Richard III skeleton find confirmed

Post by Captain Seafort »

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:The British monarchy loses its shit over Catholicism, though.
Given Catholicism's track record of trying to overthrow the monarchy (or subvert it into little more than a French client state) it's not surprising that there's a lot of institutional inertia to overcome, even after a few centuries.
From what I understand there's been some recent talk about lifting the ban on Catholicism in the monarchy, but it hasn't gone anywhere.
Of course it hasn't, any more than there's any chance of there ever being a Protestant Pope. They have lifted the ban on the monarch marrying a Catholic though.
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