Best answer to the "Stalin Gambit?"

[Kitsune]

You are talking about Atheism. . . .Suddenly somebody brings up that Stalin was an atheist and he killed millions of his own people.
I have a few different answers but wondering what are opinions on the best answer to this?

[Borgholio]

God was a Christian and he killed millions of his followers.

[Kitsune]

God was a Christian and he killed millions of his followers.

God is above human morals. . . .We cannot judge him
Stalin though was a human and we can judge him

This is how they might answer

[mr friendly guy]

God was a Christian and he killed millions of his followers.

God is above human morals. . . .We cannot judge him
Stalin though was a human and we can judge him

This is how they might answer

"Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?" Aka a variation of the Euthyphro dilemma.

[Borgholio]

Check out Deuteronomy 20 for God and his genocidal commands which were followed by people who CAN be judged.

10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

13 And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.

15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:

[Kitsune]

"Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?" Aka a variation of the Euthyphro dilemma.

I find many unable to think in such terms

[Eternal_Freedom]

Substitute God for Hitler and repeat.

Then point out that "guilty by association" is an archaic idea.

[Formless]

Better tactic: remind them of the Crusades and ask them if all Christians are evil for being associated with the Crusades. Or if you want to be even more subtle about it, research the various crimes committed by Catholics and Protestants against each other after the Reformation, and do the same.

If they aren't Christian, just find a similar war or atrocity committed in the name of their religion (like suicide bombers if they are Muslim). Using biblical atrocities is not a good choice, though, because they will take it as a direct attack on their beliefs or take it off track and bog you down in theological debate and ready made apologetics (and chances are if they are really deep into Fundamentalism or whatnot they want a bible discussion. Its their forte). All you want is to make them understand the problem with Guilt by Association, and move on.

[mr friendly guy]

"Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?" Aka a variation of the Euthyphro dilemma.

I find many unable to think in such terms

Ok, so we can try the original question again.

God was a Christian and he killed millions of his followers.

God is above human morals. . . .We cannot judge him
Stalin though was a human and we can judge him

This is how they might answer

Isaiah : 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Lamentations : 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

So God creates evil himself. Now follow it up with examples of God repenting of evil.

Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Jeremiah 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.

Thus we are not judging god by our standards, but by his own standards. After all, Moses did write the Bible after being guided by God right?

[Lord of the Abyss]

You are talking about Atheism. . . .Suddenly somebody brings up that Stalin was an atheist and he killed millions of his own people.
I have a few different answers but wondering what are opinions on the best answer to this?

"He killed them because he was a tyrant and a Communist, not because he was an atheist. That's why you keep bringing up all these murderous Communists when you want to claim that atheists are all monsters; there's a distinct lack of non-Communist mass murdering tyrants who happen to be atheist. Where are the mass murdering rulers in modern Europe, where religion is dying? "

"Stalin and Pol Pot and Mao murdered people because they were Communist tyrants, not because they were atheists. "

[Formless]

That doesn't force them to confront the problem with Guilt by Association, though. It just reinforces the "communist=TYRRANY" association, which can bite you on the ass later if you try and talk economics or politics, and they start ranting about TEH EVILS OF SOCIALISM! In fact, Communism can technically be relevant, because in Marxist thought religion is a tool of the Status Quo to keep the Proletariat down by appealing to people's superstitious and cowardly vices. The Soviets took the idea to its extreme, taking away freedom of religion based on this ideology.

If you are dealing with someone educated enough, that too can bite you on the ass. It implies that other Atheist beliefs can come to the same conclusion. You need to make sure they understand that this does not represent your beliefs.

[B5B7]

Also, as a young man Stalin trained in a seminary. Therefore one can counterclaim that he was raised as a Christian and was imbued with the values he was brought up with.
Incidentally, irregardless of what Stalin was , most of the people under him who committed any actual crimes were Christians.

[Zeropoint]

Pff, easy peasy. Just remind them that Hitler was a devout Christian. They'll pull every stunt they can think of to claim that he doesn't count because he "wasn't a real Christian" but if they get to dismiss Christians they don't like, then you get to dismiss atheists you don't like; fair is fair.

Of course, this will be the point where they make it plain that they don't CARE about fair.

[Covenant]

Copied from the Wiki:

"In following this movement towards its end we shall inevitably reach a point beyond which the scene is darkened by the shadow of Hitler. Unfortunately, it does not go without saying that in our examination we must avoid the fallacy that in the last decades has frequently been used as a substitute for the reductio ad absurdum: the reductio ad Hitlerum. A view is not refuted by the fact that it happens to have been shared by Hitler."

Similarly... Reducto ad Stalinum is similarly false. You cannot impugn a view just because it was shared by someone who is impugned themselves.

First of all, be polite. They're your neighbor, not your nemesis. Let's help them see why this is an unhelpful idea to keep in their head:

Are they saying that Stalin was an Atheist, and therefore Atheists are all like Stalin? Tell them that's not how ideas work. Is Atheism something that makes people behave in a certain way, and have certain ideas? Are they trying to say that Atheism made Stalin a communist who hated the rich, loved the state, and killed millions?

They do know Ayn Rand, the grand thinker behind the Objectivist philosophy at the heard of much Conservative wealth-centric thinking was also an Atheist?

So are Ayn Rand and Stalin the same, even though they believe the exact opposite things? They do know her family fled the Soviets, right? To America?

If they want to press the point further, point out that there's a lot of Atheists out there that aren't Stalins or Rands. Is your critic possibly a bit star-struck? You've got Ian McKellan who is as kind a soul as you'll meet, but he's gay so sure, maybe he's a suspect personality. Hugh Laurie of House or Jeeves and Wooster fame is on the list too, as is Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Thompson or Kiera Knightly. If they're very old you can also say that Katherine Hepburn was an atheist as well. She doesn't seem very Staliny.

Is your questioner literary, because then we're in business. Mark Twain was an Atheist, and as thoughtful an individual as you're sure to find. So was Douglas Adams, Issac Asimov, and one of the big names for a lot of young bomb-throwers out there, Kurt Vonnegut. Are these all Stalins? All of them?

If they won't relent, tell them they're being absurd. Is it belief in God that makes people Moral and keeps them from doing such terrible things? Then how about the senseless violence between people of religions in places like Ireland? You've got one side that's Catholic and one side that's Protestant, so you can't say both people in that fight are members of the "wrong" religion, if your speaker is Christian.

Maybe they're going to say that both parts of a fight like that are doing it wrong and are bad people because they're bad, and if they were actually "good Christians" then they wouldn't do that stuff. Your response to that could be, "Well it must be convenient for you to be the arbiter of who is and is not a proper member of their own religion, as taught to them by their religious leaders." When you have the ability to exclude anyone from your sample until you get only the people you think are "good" then yeah, you can draw black and white comparisons pretty easily.

If they protest, say that in a way you agree. If those factions or Stalin had followed the prohibitions against killing, and acted with charity, there'd be a lot less violence. But those don't require religion, any ethical individual understands that killing your neighbor instead of befriending them is a bad action. Since laws were first put to stone, in fact, there have been admonitions against killing, theft, and all those kinds of society-disrupting deeds. Ethics favor being a good neighbor, something Stalin did not want to be, and that's why he and the people like him were bad no matter what they believed.

In fact, the person delivering this speech (the person defending Atheism from the Stalin-slinger) is trying to be a good neighbor themselves and show that while they disagree on some issues that there is still a great deal of benefit from being friendly and allying for the good of everyone. Unlike a Stalin who wants everyone to be the same, think the same, and cannot trust anyone who disagrees, you (the speaker) are glad that people can have a difference of opinion and still act in a civil way towards each other.

Doesn't your opponent feel the same way?

Well, who is acting like Stalin now?

[Simon_Jester]

I like the attempt to counterattack by pointing out the problem with this kind of guilt by association:

"Hitler was a vegetarian. Does that mean vegetarianism makes you a mass murderer?" or "You know what Hitler and Stalin both had in common? Mustaches. Does that mean mustaches must have something to do with their evil?"

Thus, one asks them, quite simply, how do you go about making an argument work, when it is of the form "X was evil, X did Y, therefore Y is evil?"

[General Zod]

Hitler wasn't even remotely a vegetarian. But he did have a penchant for drinking. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/09/2 ... Vegetarian

[Dr. Trainwreck]

You tell them to go fuck themselves, because the validity of an idea is a separate concept from the integrity of its carrier. If they disagree, you can saddle them with the idiot who wrote Malleus Maleficarum, Martin Luther's wonderful little thing called On the Jews and their Lies (actual inspiration for the Nazis), inquisitors like Torquemada or Konrad von Marburg, et cetera until they get the idea that, since they personally are nothing like Torquemada, then you probably are nothing like Stalin.

Of course, to get the idea they will have to empathize with another person, which is a dicey proposition, but still.

To tell the truth, I don't particularly like the idea of declaring Stalin a non-atheist, or shouting "Commies! Commies!" It's about as base as any reductio ad Hitlerum in terms of intellectual ability, and anyone who can argue worth a shit will ask you why you are using a huge Scotsman fallacy. Simply say that if an idea can stand on its own, then it will, and debate them on the vailidity of God's existence. At that point they have two choices, either begin smartassing around the question or try to argue for God's existence and get called on multiple fallacies.

[Kitsune]

Many of you have great ideas and they are great ideas.
Many answers are similar to how I might answer.
Have to target low attention spans though.

[mr friendly guy]

Back to the original question, we could list some of God's greatest hits and then ask them to apply the same logic. Are all Christians like their God?

Cannibalism
Jeremiah 19:9 And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.

Ezekial 5 : 10 Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds.

Leviticus 26:29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.

Human sacrifices

Ezekial 20:26 (RSV) – I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first born, that I might horrify them: I did it that they might know that I am the Lord. (other versions may have slightly different phrasing).

Lying cumstain

a) Tells his prophets to lie

2 Chronicles : Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

b) Who can remember this lie?

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

But Adam didn't die. Wait for the apologist to say he died a spiritual death rather than a physical one.

Murders

Numbers 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

But wait, there's more. God incites others to do it for him.

Ezekial 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

On rape victims

Deuteronomy 22 : 23-24 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

Note - lie with her is a euphemism here. Clearly its the rape victims fault if she doesn't shout loud enough.

Slavery

Deuteronomy 15:17 Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.

Joel 3:8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.

1 Timothy 6:1-2 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

Titus 2:9-10 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.


Leviticus 25:42,25:44-46 (NIV): "Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves ... Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations
around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

But he loves prostitutes

Hosea 1:2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

Rubs shit into people's faces. No literally

Malachi 2:3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.

While telling people to eat shit (depending on the Biblical version it might simply say cook using human faeces instead).

Ezekial 4:12 And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. (King James version)

And my favourite line - studying women's secret parts even though he presumably created women.

Isaiah 3:17 Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.

[Kitsune]

Um, I am trying to give relatively short answers that are not antagonizing?

[mr friendly guy]

Well you could just point out God kills people, has strange rules regarding rapists, lies, promotes slavery, and instructs people in human sacrifices, and then ask if all Christians do this. If not then is it fair to generalise atheists to Stalin especially when atheism doesn't instruct Stalin to go all communist on the population, whereas the God does instruct his followers to do those actions listed. We can leave out the smearing of shit on people's faces and consuming of it. But it still would be short.

If they ask where in the Bible God does this, well now you have a great reference.

[K. A. Pital]

Being an atheist does not mean one is a good person. Neither does being a Christian. It is certainly the most obvious reply to the reductio ad Stalinum.

[Simon_Jester]

Me, I'd still stick with "Hitler was a vegetarian, that doesn't make vegetarian equal," then shift the point of debate to "did atheism make Stalin kill people," to which the answer is definitely "no."

[K. A. Pital]

Me, I'd still stick with "Hitler was a vegetarian, that doesn't make vegetarian equal," then shift the point of debate to "did atheism make Stalin kill people," to which the answer is definitely "no."

Remarkably enough very few of Stalin's purges were related to religion. Most of them were related to political loyalty. If one wanted to make an example of atheists or secularists repressing religious people, then Mexico is I'd say a better example.

[Kitsune]

Me, I'd still stick with "Hitler was a vegetarian, that doesn't make vegetarian equal," then shift the point of debate to "did atheism make Stalin kill people," to which the answer is definitely "no."

Remarkably enough very few of Stalin's purges were related to religion. Most of them were related to political loyalty. If one wanted to make an example of atheists or secularists repressing religious people, then Mexico is I'd say a better example.

That was brought up as well but personally know little about it