On being 'cool to sa' the N-word and other slurs

[SMJB]

Saw this discussion on Melissa Harris-Perry this morning while they were talking about that whole Richie Incognito thing (which is a whole 'nother discussion, but long story short: fuck Incognito), and the verdict was no (or rather "N-O", to be precise). I think that certainly if anyone has a problem with you using such language you shouldn't use it--we're talking about ridiculously offensive slurs here, after all--but if you've carefully checked and no one in your group of acquaintances has any problem with you using it? In that case, it's just a word. It's not the sounds n, ih, g, and r strung together that's somehow offensive, it's the definitions and connotations that are triggered in a person's brain when they hear them. And, once again, if someone is offended you must respect that (I can't stress that enough--no, literally, I can't; it would take seven-foot-tall flaming letters or something), but if they're not--they're not. Know what I mean?

[Losonti Tokash]

So what you're saying is that racism and bigotry are only bad if you get caught by the victims of it.

[Channel72]

Stupid philosophical thought experiment: if you're stranded on an uninhabited island in the Pacific Ocean, thousands of miles from the nearest human being, is it bad if you keep shouting out racial slurs?

Answer: probably.

[SMJB]

So what you're saying is that racism and bigotry are only bad if you get caught by the victims of it.

...Are you by any chance related to fgalkin?

I don't even know how to explain to you what's wrong with that.

Stupid philosophical thought experiment: if you're stranded on an uninhabited island in the Pacific Ocean, thousands of miles from the nearest human being, is it bad if you keep shouting out racial slurs?

Answer: probably.

I have no idea why anyone would want to...but where's the harm in it, exactly?

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

I will never quite understand the desire some white people have for saying that slur. What possible gain can be had from saying it? Why do you want to? What's wrong with just... not saying it?

Also, could you at least give a shot at telling Los how he's "wrong" because I'm interested.

As for a solid example of how it's bad even if none of the people around you say they have a problem, well, actually there's multiple ways I want to say it. The people in your group it doesn't aim at are going to take your usage of the word as evidence that that bigotry is more socially acceptable. The people in your group it does aim at might not actually be ok with it but find it much easier to pretend they do, especially if it's in a professional situation or they're in the minority.

[SMJB]

I will never quite understand the desire some white people have for saying that slur. What possible gain can be had from saying it? Why do you want to? What's wrong with just... not saying it?

It creates parity in ribbing if both sides can say "looking-ass n***a."

Actually, I have no idea. That's not really the point, though. The point is whether or not it's permissible.

Also, could you at least give a shot at telling Los how he's "wrong" because I'm interested.

How 'bout you tell me where anything I said has anything to do with bigotry at all, much less saying it's permissible if no one catches you at it?

As for a solid example of how it's bad even if none of the people around you say they have a problem, well, actually there's multiple ways I want to say it. The people in your group it doesn't aim at are going to take your usage of the word as evidence that that bigotry is more socially acceptable. The people in your group it does aim at might not actually be ok with it but find it much easier to pretend they do, especially if it's in a professional situation or they're in the minority.

To the first half, I find that highly doubtful, unless you're hanging out with horrible people. To the second, that's more difficult. I suppose it comes down to trust. I wasn't really envisioning a professional scenario, though, because in a professional situation you should probably avoid being unprofessional just on base principles, you know?

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

You find it "highly doubtful" that people take others around them doing a behavior and it being treated as socially acceptable as evidence that that behavior is socially acceptable?

??

How do you think socialisation even works?

Also, do you even understand why some people affected by slurs wish to reclaim them? For someone who is the target of a slur, to reclaim it is to take some of the power away from it and give it to the people who would be its targets. For those who are not the targets, there is no similar recourse there. To continue to use the slurs from a position of power gives the slur continued power as a tool of attack and nothing more.

[SMJB]

You find it "highly doubtful" that people take others around them doing a behavior and it being treated as socially acceptable as evidence that that behavior is socially acceptable?

And if using a word that happens to be a slur--mind, in the presence of people to whom the slur is supposed to refer, with their consent--in a way that's obviously not meant to be bigoted was a form of bigotry...that response would mean something.

Also, do you even understand why some people affected by slurs wish to reclaim them? For someone who is the target of a slur, to reclaim it is to take some of the power away from it and give it to the people who would be its targets. For those who are not the targets, there is no similar recourse there. To continue to use the slurs from a position of power gives the slur continued power as a tool of attack and nothing more.

Words only have the power we give them--that is the entire point of reclaiming slurs in the first place. I'm not saying anything like that they should "just get over" it or anything absurdly retarded like that, but if everyone in earshot has well and truly achieved the point where the word has no power over them at all...what's the problem?

[fgalkin]

Why do you feel you have a need to use the n-word at all? What are you trying to accomplish that cannot be done with any other word?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Metahive]

Words only have the power we give them--that is the entire point of reclaiming slurs in the first place. I'm not saying anything like that they should "just get over" it or anything absurdly retarded like that, but if everyone in earshot has well and truly achieved the point where the word has no power over them at all...what's the problem?

What is "nigger" other than a racially denigrating slur? Why would you want to have that word to be "safe" (as in it doesn't mark you as horribly racially insensitive) for use again?
I have been called "sliteyes", which is just as much racist slur. If some whitebread guy came to me and told me he wants to repurpose that word so he can safely call me that I'd either consider him to be terribly naive or to be a racist motherfucker. If he continued to tell me that it's OK because he and his buddies use it freely I wouldn't care, even if 99% of that group were East-Asians. Between friends it's one thing and if your minority buddy allows you to call him a slur playfully (I had a German and an Afghani colleague who jokingly called each other "infidel" and "taliban" respectively) that's one thing, but don't think for a moment that makes it OK to extend usage of that slur to all other members of that minority. Doing so would just reveal some hideous selection bias.

[SMJB]

Why do you feel you have a need to use the n-word at all? What are you trying to accomplish that cannot be done with any other word?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I see your reading comprehension is about as well-honed as ever. Which is to say you're fucking illiterate. Here's what I said the last time this came up in this thread:

"Actually, I have no idea [why you can't just not say it]. That's not really the point, though. The point is whether or not it's permissible."

Wow, your fail streak just never ends.

Words only have the power we give them--that is the entire point of reclaiming slurs in the first place. I'm not saying anything like that they should "just get over" it or anything absurdly retarded like that, but if everyone in earshot has well and truly achieved the point where the word has no power over them at all...what's the problem?

What is "nigger" other than a racially denigrating slur? Why would you want to have that word to be "safe" (as in it doesn't mark you as horribly racially insensitive) for use again?
I have been called "sliteyes", which is just as much racist slur. If some whitebread guy came to me and told me he wants to repurpose that word so he can safely call me that I'd either consider him to be terribly naive or to be a racist motherfucker. If he continued to tell me that it's OK because he and his buddies use it freely I wouldn't care, even if 99% of that group were East-Asians. Between friends it's one thing and if your minority buddy allows you to call him a slur playfully (I had a German and an Afghani colleague who jokingly called each other "infidel" and "taliban" respectively) that's one thing, but don't think for a moment that makes it OK to extend usage of that slur to all other members of that minority. Doing so would just reveal some hideous selection bias.

...Um, your right to object to people using certain language WAS NEVER AT ISSUE here. OF COURSE if someone uses charged terminology you have the right to object to it! My entire argument was that IF no one objects, it's not wrong. And judging from the portion of your post I highlighted, YOU AGREE!

I'm sorry but...arguing with me is one thing, but at least bother to figure out why you're arguing with me before you do so!!!

[AniThyng]

The problem is assuming that this only matters in earshot. To turn it on it's head, this is like saying it's okay to use it in a derogatory way as long as you are around other racists. Which is basically (edit: Los's) point and one you have failed to convincingly address.

Same with the desert island issue - it's not just about others, it's about what you yourself think and the attitude. Are you sure the word has no power when you feel so strongly you ought to be asked to use it

[Thanas]

It is only permissible if you received permission by everyone within hearing distance.

Even then I would not suggest using it for IMO it shows bad taste and manners.

[WATCH-MAN]

• • • • Watch your thoughts; they become words.
        Watch your words; they become actions.
        Watch your actions; they become habit.
        Watch your habits; they become character.
        Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
        
        • • • • • • [list][list][list][list][list]allegedly from Lao Tzu

[/list][/list][/list][/list][/list]

It always begins "only" with thoughts ... in this case ... you think racistical words ... you aren't far away from "feeling" that these words are appropriate to signify differences between human beings ... you aren't far away from being a racist.

Be cautious!!!

[Simon_Jester]

Stupid philosophical thought experiment: if you're stranded on an uninhabited island in the Pacific Ocean, thousands of miles from the nearest human being, is it bad if you keep shouting out racial slurs?

Answer: probably.

I have no idea why anyone would want to...but where's the harm in it, exactly?

The same harm that would result if you spent the entire time on your desert island shouting any other curse words: it hardens and coarsens you to those words.* It creates in your mind patterns which will harm you, and possibly others, when you return to civilization.
_____________________

*I for one have observed that I use a lot more casual profanity in the last few years; I sometimes speculate that this is because this place is now one of the major places where I express myself, and it is very tolerant of profanity.

[Metahive]

...Um, your right to object to people using certain language WAS NEVER AT ISSUE here. OF COURSE if someone uses charged terminology you have the right to object to it! My entire argument was that IF no one objects, it's not wrong. And judging from the portion of your post I highlighted, YOU AGREE!

I'm sorry but...arguing with me is one thing, but at least bother to figure out why you're arguing with me before you do so!!!

I said it is one thing. That's not me agreeing unconditionally. Do you have PoCs within your circle of friends and wish to call them slurs? Well, ask them, not a bunch of strangers if they're OK with it. Or do you no regard them as sophisticated enough to know their own preferences? And even if they say they're OK with it I myself would refrain from using slurs. Do you know why? Because within a circle of friends there's this certain pressure of keeping up buddy-harmony that might influence people to agree with shit even if it hurts them.

The only time it might be OK to call a friend a slur is if that friends offers it on his own without getting prompted and even then I myself wouldn't because I still consider this to be a jackass thing to do that also desensitizes people towards racist language.

I however am beginning to think that your circle of friends is homogenously white or you'd have already given us your hypothetical PoC friend's opinion on this and in that case I tell you if you do that you do nothing but marking you and your buddies as racists, flat and simple. Non-racists simply do not seek for excuses to use racist slurs you see.

[Lord Pounder]

Stupid philosophical thought experiment: if you're stranded on an uninhabited island in the Pacific Ocean, thousands of miles from the nearest human being, is it bad if you keep shouting out racial slurs?

Answer: probably.

I have no idea why anyone would want to...but where's the harm in it, exactly?

The same harm that would result if you spent the entire time on your desert island shouting any other curse words: it hardens and coarsens you to those words.* It creates in your mind patterns which will harm you, and possibly others, when you return to civilization.
_____________________

*I for one have observed that I use a lot more casual profanity in the last few years; I sometimes speculate that this is because this place is now one of the major places where I express myself, and it is very tolerant of profanity.

Exactly, it's a slippery slope to casually use such destructive and offensive language casually. Silly things like a teenager referring to things he doesn't like as "gay" starts a subconscious thought process in his head that lessens the impact of such horrible use of a word. In modern society with such a sophisticated emotive language such as we have there is no need to drop n-bombs or other offensive slurs.

[Lagmonster]

I've always held that offensive words are useful to offend people. Racial and sexual slurs have the power to make people feel humiliated or vulnerable, which is kind of the goal of hurtful speech. Being called a disgusting bodily function and/or organ and/or activity practitioner, versus being hit with a racial insult, is to me the difference between being punched in the chin or the nose; it hurts either way, just differently and maybe a little more depending on style and presentation.

Of course, we should aspire NOT to try to harm people with speech, but I'm assuming here that someone has already tossed that option out the window, perhaps because I have just cut them off in traffic or something.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Have you considered that slurs and insults have the same affect on you because you aren't in any position where slurs are used as tools to harm and oppress you, and that this is probably not the case for everyone else?

[Simon_Jester]

Words that call you something generically obscene are an... impersonal attack.

Words that target something about you, insults that are only "true" by virtue of your membership in a specific category like "woman" or "French person" are a direct attack on your identity.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

It's not just a matter of identity, though, but the power they can have behind it. The very obvious comparison to make is the n-slur compared with "cracker". Having someone insult your white identity when you live in a white supremacist society with a long history of stark white supremacy isn't going to sting much at all. But the n-slur has been weaponised for decades and being black comes with stiff penalties in our society and makes you an acceptable target and that slur carries all that weight with it.

[Lagmonster]

Words that call you something generically obscene are an... impersonal attack.

Words that target something about you, insults that are only "true" by virtue of your membership in a specific category like "woman" or "French person" are a direct attack on your identity.

Well, it's all quite silly to begin with. I mean, imagine a conversation where you're debating which is a more effective way to cold-cock someone from behind; you have to make a lot of concessions (such as that we've arrived at a scenario where hitting someone is an option on the table) just for the discussion to take place. Calibrating hurtful words in terms of how effective they are at hurting their targets falls largely into the same category, wouldn't you say?

[Simon_Jester]

It's more like "no knives, no gouging, and no hitting below the belt," if you ask me.

Certain rules are or should be fairly easy to agree on, and barring use of racial slurs when spoken by a white to a black is one of them.

[Zixinus]

The problem is also that words have a history and when you use them, they can invoke that history. History can carry itself ideology and that ideology can be toxic, both socially and even mentally (the slippery slope previously mentioned). You might genuinely not have any negative intention or meaning if you use the word, but you will still do it none the less. That's why you should avoid using it: because you will also that invoke ideology and that history, things you may not only be unaware of, but you don't identify with.

"Nigger" and "Negro" (which is less common in English) both have a very strong history and a very emotionally visceral one. It is after all the word used to dehumanize black people and invoke racism. You will invoke not just the idea that certain races are bad, but also the idea that some races are are meant to be slaves and others are meant to be rulers.
You will do it whether you are genuinely racist or not. Your intentions or even the audience you tell it to, will not clean it of that.

And the thing is, our present is not racist-free. It is just one where racism has become an unpopular trait, a negative trait that polite society ostracizes and down-looks. Racism still exists and is still significant to people who are targets of racism. The history is people using that term, to invoke racist ideology and worldview is a living history and will likely remain a living history for a long time. These words usually aren't used just used as petty insults, they are used to marginalize people, to bully people, to belittle them and to frighten them.

When you use those words, you are still sending the same signals, even if you don't intend to. Using it with people to whom it is not immediately offensive does not mean that you aren't still sending those signals. What's more, people may still note the usage of the word and encourage others to use it, even if they don't want to do so consciously.

So, yes, innocent sounds that make of the word "nigger" together will make a word that any non-racist person should avoid using. If you are not racist, you do not want to bring out those canonizations. You do not use the language of a people that you do not want to identify.

[Korto]

"Nigger" and "Negro" (which is less common in English) both have a very strong history and a very emotionally visceral one. It is after all the word used to dehumanize black people and invoke racism. You will invoke not just the idea that certain races are bad, but also the idea that some races are are meant to be slaves and others are meant to be rulers.
You will do it whether you are genuinely racist or not. Your intentions or even the audience you tell it to, will not clean it of that.

I don't see "Negro" as a racist slur. It's the proper word. Yes, it's been used to vilify, but so's "homosexual", and, for that matter, "woman".
"Homo" is a slur, "Homosexual" is what you are.
"Nigger" is a slur, "Negro" is what you are.
If you can come up with something else accurate and laconic, maybe it'll be worth considering. Not "Black", as I might wonder if you meant Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander, or possibly Maori. Not "African", as there's plenty of whites in Africa. "Black African" has too many syllables. And certainly not "African American", as not only is it far too long, but you also risk insulting every negro person in the rest of the world.