Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
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- Imperial528
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Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
So, a friend came up with an idea for a relatively cheaply built fusion power source. Essentially, take a magnetic bottle engine, plop it on the surface of a planet, turn it on and use the intense heat to generate electricity, without having to build a pesky containment chamber.
Now, neither myself nor my friend know what, exactly, this would do to a planetary atmosphere.
I was tossing the idea around in my head and figured that it might create a sort of convection torus, where cool air from the ground level is drawn in towards the base of the "plasma spike" coming out of the engine, and hot air violently ejected at the other end, then spreading out to cool off and fall back down. If that works then you could place turbines at the base and funnel the air in through them to generate power. With some really slick ceramics and structural engineering, you might build a hollow tower around it to further direct the air into this path, creating a sort of super solar updraft tower, but powered by a giant plume of superheated plasma.
That's my hope, at least. But as I said, neither myself nor my friend are sure what his idea would actually do. Other than pump ungodly amounts of heat into the air.
Now, neither myself nor my friend know what, exactly, this would do to a planetary atmosphere.
I was tossing the idea around in my head and figured that it might create a sort of convection torus, where cool air from the ground level is drawn in towards the base of the "plasma spike" coming out of the engine, and hot air violently ejected at the other end, then spreading out to cool off and fall back down. If that works then you could place turbines at the base and funnel the air in through them to generate power. With some really slick ceramics and structural engineering, you might build a hollow tower around it to further direct the air into this path, creating a sort of super solar updraft tower, but powered by a giant plume of superheated plasma.
That's my hope, at least. But as I said, neither myself nor my friend are sure what his idea would actually do. Other than pump ungodly amounts of heat into the air.
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
How exactly do you compress and heat up the fusion fuels enough if it's an open-air design?
And you're always going to gain less energy from the turbines than the energy you used to heat up the air for convection to happen in the first place.
And you're always going to gain less energy from the turbines than the energy you used to heat up the air for convection to happen in the first place.
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
1. I fail to see how anything you've said supports the "relatively cheap" aspect of it (i.e. slick ceramics, magnetic confinement, torus, super solar tower...etc etc).
2. As far as I can tell a magnetic bottle engine is nothing more than a MHD engine (here and here).
3. Do you, or your friend have any idea how much has already been spent over the past ~50 years +/- to get ANY fusion powered system to become self-sustaining? By what you've posted, it doesn't appear so.
4. Should this have been posted in Sci-Fi?
krakonfour, I don't think it is an open-air design. I think outside air is pumped into a magnetic confinement ceramic bottle and then compressed by these cheap magnets that he and his friend found.
2. As far as I can tell a magnetic bottle engine is nothing more than a MHD engine (here and here).
3. Do you, or your friend have any idea how much has already been spent over the past ~50 years +/- to get ANY fusion powered system to become self-sustaining? By what you've posted, it doesn't appear so.
4. Should this have been posted in Sci-Fi?
krakonfour, I don't think it is an open-air design. I think outside air is pumped into a magnetic confinement ceramic bottle and then compressed by these cheap magnets that he and his friend found.
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- Imperial528
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
According to my friend the process is started with a fission-fusion bomb to provide the start-up energy. However, how the process is started and maintained is not the question I am asking. I will elaborate further at the end of the post on this point.krakonfour wrote:How exactly do you compress and heat up the fusion fuels enough if it's an open-air design?
And you're always going to gain less energy from the turbines than the energy you used to heat up the air for convection to happen in the first place.
The basic idea my friend had was to just add rings of coolant loops up around the outside of it (not so close that they'd need active cooling, mind) to draw heat away and produce power from there, even if we just resort to the good old steam turbine. The solar updraft tower was used as an analogy, "slick" is a term I get from my father's vocabulary, which means, from the dictionary: "4. ingenious; cleverly devised: a slick plan to get out of work. "cadbrowser wrote:1. I fail to see how anything you've said supports the "relatively cheap" aspect of it (i.e. slick ceramics, magnetic confinement, torus, super solar tower...etc etc).
Essentially, in this case, slick ceramics would just mean ones with high enough strength and heat resistance (though the tower would likely be steel reinforced) to contain and direct air being sucked in by the exhaust jet. I used torus to describe the shape of the convecting air around it, and the magnetic confinement would only be around the actual point of fusion itself, not the exhaust plasma.
That's exactly what it is, as far as I can tell. The fusion exhaust is just being shot into the air.
Actually, yes. My friend's idea here was to bypass the issue of containing the plasma and siphoning off the fusion products that your reactor isn't capable of fusing further by just blasting them out. He hasn't explained the exact mechanics of the idea to me and personally he has more knowledge in it. I'll ask him to create an account here when he gets online today, as he can probably explain this better. Not that such details would be necessary for the question asked in the OP, more on that below.cadbrowser wrote:3. Do you, or your friend have any idea how much has already been spent over the past ~50 years +/- to get ANY fusion powered system to become self-sustaining? By what you've posted, it doesn't appear so.
cadbrowser wrote:4. Should this have been posted in Sci-Fi?
I posted this thread because neither myself nor my friend know enough about plasma physics to know what, exactly, the plasma would do to the surrounding air, and that is what I have asked here. I posted it in SLAM because this is less a question about fusion power and more about a large amount of plasma's behavior in an atmosphere, also the hope that any plasma physicists who may frequent the board would be more likely to see the thread should it be in SLAM. If a mod feels like this should be moved to sci-fi I have no opposition to it.
It is not an open-air design, however the surrounding air is not fuel. Naturally that would be deuterium or a D/T mixture pumped into the reaction chamber. My talk of the convection of outside air was my attempt at trying to figure out how a large jet of plasma moving at high velocities would affect the surrounding atmosphere. My idea of surrounding it with a ceramic tower was to direct the air further into a desirable convection cycle. I really have no idea how you got the impression it would use the air as a fuel, or that the air would be draw into the fusion chamber itself, when I only stated that I thought it may be drawn into the exhaust jet. If my explanation was lacking, mea culpa.cadbrowser wrote:krakonfour, I don't think it is an open-air design. I think outside air is pumped into a magnetic confinement ceramic bottle and then compressed by these cheap magnets that he and his friend found.
In summary, how the plasma/exhaust jet is created is not the question, and for all intents and purposes it can be considered a black box that spits out a large plume of plasma. I decided to describe it, if only vaguely, in the OP because I know that the average SDN member would likely wonder what this black box is doing. In retrospect this may have been a mistake, as it seems at least two have missed the forest for the trees.
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
First of all, I want to apologize for sounding a bit dismissive there. Based on your initial post, you sounded like a bit of a loon.
I think you, your friend, and I need to talk. For several years (10+) I have had a design in my brain similar to this, but I haven't been able to find anyone with enough time on their hands to aid me with the physics (chemical/atomic/mathematics portion) of it to submit a grant request to the DOD for a proof of concept/prototype. I have a few 3D models I've been playing with as well. Right now it is all hypothetical wanderings of an overactive imagination.
The design I have in mind, IMHO, would be an intermediary step in power generation (non-polluting perhaps?) until they figure out fusion.
I know enough about plasma physics to be able to tell you that there is, currently, no known method of containment with any type of 'slick' ceramics. That is why magnetic confinement is key here. The cheapness is not going to happen due to the immense temperatures required to release energy at the atomic level. A small scale version might be doable with regular electromagnets (like the size of a 2-liter pop bottle). But anything in the hundreds of megawatts range will most likely need supercooled/superconducting electromagnets.
The design I have in mind produces plasma in the millions of degrees F. The initial stage will generate electricity on the D.C. side with an MHD motor (similar to yours). That will have to be converted to A.C. to be utilized by the existing transmission structures in place. Then the exhaust will be directed to a series of tubes similarly laid out like a coal fired powerplant as a secondary stage to produce the steam for turbines. So my design returns the exhaust to the atmo no hotter than a powerplant does.
I would imagine that if you do release the plasma exhaust, that nothing significant will happen (probably depend on the velocity and temperature); but you are wasting a massive potential of energy that can do useful work.
I think you, your friend, and I need to talk. For several years (10+) I have had a design in my brain similar to this, but I haven't been able to find anyone with enough time on their hands to aid me with the physics (chemical/atomic/mathematics portion) of it to submit a grant request to the DOD for a proof of concept/prototype. I have a few 3D models I've been playing with as well. Right now it is all hypothetical wanderings of an overactive imagination.
The design I have in mind, IMHO, would be an intermediary step in power generation (non-polluting perhaps?) until they figure out fusion.
I know enough about plasma physics to be able to tell you that there is, currently, no known method of containment with any type of 'slick' ceramics. That is why magnetic confinement is key here. The cheapness is not going to happen due to the immense temperatures required to release energy at the atomic level. A small scale version might be doable with regular electromagnets (like the size of a 2-liter pop bottle). But anything in the hundreds of megawatts range will most likely need supercooled/superconducting electromagnets.
The design I have in mind produces plasma in the millions of degrees F. The initial stage will generate electricity on the D.C. side with an MHD motor (similar to yours). That will have to be converted to A.C. to be utilized by the existing transmission structures in place. Then the exhaust will be directed to a series of tubes similarly laid out like a coal fired powerplant as a secondary stage to produce the steam for turbines. So my design returns the exhaust to the atmo no hotter than a powerplant does.
I would imagine that if you do release the plasma exhaust, that nothing significant will happen (probably depend on the velocity and temperature); but you are wasting a massive potential of energy that can do useful work.
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- cadbrowser
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
Oh, ghetto edit...
My system doesn't require a fussion/fission bomb at all. And the surrounding air IS the fuel.
My system doesn't require a fussion/fission bomb at all. And the surrounding air IS the fuel.
Financing and Managing a webcomic called Geeks & Goblins.
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -Ozzy
"Cheerleaders are dancers who have gone retarded." - Sparky Polastri
"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I'm all out of bubblegum." - Frank Nada
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -Ozzy
"Cheerleaders are dancers who have gone retarded." - Sparky Polastri
"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I'm all out of bubblegum." - Frank Nada
- Imperial528
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
Very interesting. We're on skype if you have an account on there, or IRC or whatever. If you've got those, PM me the details and I can set something up?cadbrowser wrote:First of all, I want to apologize for sounding a bit dismissive there. Based on your initial post, you sounded like a bit of a loon.
I think you, your friend, and I need to talk. For several years (10+) I have had a design in my brain similar to this, but I haven't been able to find anyone with enough time on their hands to aid me with the physics (chemical/atomic/mathematics portion) of it to submit a grant request to the DOD for a proof of concept/prototype. I have a few 3D models I've been playing with as well. Right now it is all hypothetical wanderings of an overactive imagination.
The design I have in mind, IMHO, would be an intermediary step in power generation (non-polluting perhaps?) until they figure out fusion.
Also, I'd like to apologize if my communication was less-than-adequate.
From what I understand the "cheap" aspect is from the fact that you're only containing some of it, instead of trying to contain the entirety of the plasma in a rather large volume. So it's cheaper than a conventional approach via full containment fusion, as I get it. But as I said, I only barely understand the theory of it.cadbrowser wrote:I know enough about plasma physics to be able to tell you that there is, currently, no known method of containment with any type of 'slick' ceramics. That is why magnetic confinement is key here. The cheapness is not going to happen due to the immense temperatures required to release energy at the atomic level. A small scale version might be doable with regular electromagnets (like the size of a 2-liter pop bottle). But anything in the hundreds of megawatts range will most likely need supercooled/superconducting electromagnets.
To clarify about the ceramics, my idea there was not to use them to contain the plasma at all. Just use them to direct air around the exhaust plume into a more beneficial flow. Naturally they wouldn't get so close as to be actually containing the plume. I only specified ceramics because due to higher heat resistance you could make the space between the plume and tower walls just a bit smaller to squeeze out a higher pressure differential. It'd be more akin to making a nozzle around it to focus the air than to contain it.
Hm.. Yeah, my friend thought of it such that you'd add more coils around the exhaust plume to extract more energy from it as need. I suggested a lower tech way would be to just add heat exchangers, though partially because at the time of our conversation I'd forgotten about MHDs and couldn't wrap my head around it.cadbrowser wrote:The design I have in mind produces plasma in the millions of degrees F. The initial stage will generate electricity on the D.C. side with an MHD motor (similar to yours). That will have to be converted to A.C. to be utilized by the existing transmission structures in place. Then the exhaust will be directed to a series of tubes similarly laid out like a coal fired powerplant as a secondary stage to produce the steam for turbines. So my design returns the exhaust to the atmo no hotter than a powerplant does.
I would imagine that if you do release the plasma exhaust, that nothing significant will happen (probably depend on the velocity and temperature); but you are wasting a massive potential of energy that can do useful work.
Now your idea is likely far more appealing in actual applications, however my friend thought of his idea for a modern-level setting we're doing as the equivalent of "dirty energy" for nuclear fusion power.
I'm afraid that using the air as fuel is beyond my understanding of the subject. I mean, what. How? Argh.cadbrowser wrote:Oh, ghetto edit...
My system doesn't require a fussion/fission bomb at all. And the surrounding air IS the fuel.
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
I am unfamiliar what IRC is referring to. If you like I can PM you my email address and we can all three talk some more about this.Very interesting. We're on skype if you have an account on there, or IRC or whatever. If you've got those, PM me the details and I can set something up?
Also, I'd like to apologize if my communication was less-than-adequate.
No worries, it happens to all of us.
With regards to plasma at those temperatures, ceramic confinement will just not work. Even for redirection anywhere near the exhaust plume. The ceramic tiles on the Space Shuttle that was used for re-entry are good for 3,000o F (Source). AFAIK, those are the cream of the crop.From what I understand the "cheap" aspect is from the fact that you're only containing some of it, instead of trying to contain the entirety of the plasma in a rather large volume. So it's cheaper than a conventional approach via full containment fusion, as I get it. But as I said, I only barely understand the theory of it.
Really, you do need magnetic confinement. Now, since the exhauset is escaping into a 'boiler' type application (per my design) you are correct in that you wouldn't need a closed magnetic confinement application. That, indeed would save quite a bit of money on the initial design.
Now, once the temperature of the plasma exhaust has reached the ceramic limit, then yeah...you could redirect it that way. IIRC, the steam generated by a coal fired power plant is about a third of that. So, like I said...A LOT of potential engery to further process.
Ok, well...I wasn't too far off base as to why you posted this then.Hm.. Yeah, my friend thought of it such that you'd add more coils around the exhaust plume to extract more energy from it as need. I suggested a lower tech way would be to just add heat exchangers, though partially because at the time of our conversation I'd forgotten about MHDs [snip] and couldn't wrap my head around it.
Now your idea is likely far more appealing in actual applications, however my friend thought of his idea for a modern-level setting we're doing as the equivalent of "dirty energy" for nuclear fusion power.
Fifty years ago or so, the Soviet Union and USA did some experimentation with MHD generators. They used coal pulverized like it is today (fine as talcum powder) seeded with potassium (higher electric conductivity) and sent that through as fuel. Then they recycled the heat to a boiler. Problem was they couldnt' get it hot enough to be any more effecient than technology that was already out there. I believe the hotest they could get their "plasma" was 6000 degrees? Don't quote me on that tho...been a while since I've read about it. Found a bit of info for you.
Maybe there is another 'dirty' fuel they can use? Depends on how far out the setting is.
I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.I'm afraid that using the air as fuel is beyond my understanding of the subject. I mean, what. How? Argh.
Seriously tho, you have to get the temperature like 5x hotter than the surface of the Sun. Which is doable (as I've found out) with today's technology. There are just a few things that I have to test to verify my hypothesis...and that requires big gov't money; unfortunately.
Financing and Managing a webcomic called Geeks & Goblins.
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -Ozzy
"Cheerleaders are dancers who have gone retarded." - Sparky Polastri
"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I'm all out of bubblegum." - Frank Nada
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -Ozzy
"Cheerleaders are dancers who have gone retarded." - Sparky Polastri
"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I'm all out of bubblegum." - Frank Nada
- Imperial528
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
IRC is Internet Relay Chat. It's a kind of IM system. But yeah, PM me your email address and we can set something up.cadbrowser wrote:I am unfamiliar what IRC is referring to. If you like I can PM you my email address and we can all three talk some more about this.
No worries, it happens to all of us.
I think you still misunderstand my tower idea, here, I've got a diagram: (Note, I have no idea if the air would actually behave like this)With regards to plasma at those temperatures, ceramic confinement will just not work. Even for redirection anywhere near the exhaust plume. The ceramic tiles on the Space Shuttle that was used for re-entry are good for 3,000o F (Source). AFAIK, those are the cream of the crop.
Really, you do need magnetic confinement. Now, since the exhauset is escaping into a 'boiler' type application (per my design) you are correct in that you wouldn't need a closed magnetic confinement application. That, indeed would save quite a bit of money on the initial design.
Now, once the temperature of the plasma exhaust has reached the ceramic limit, then yeah...you could redirect it that way. IIRC, the steam generated by a coal fired power plant is about a third of that. So, like I said...A LOT of potential engery to further process.
Spoiler
Now the gray box is the fusion reactor, the purple shape is the exhaust plasma, the teal the tower structure and the green and red are air circulation paths. Without the tower the air would circulate roughly like the green path. The tower forces more air to be sucked up with the exhaust plume at the base and at higher speeds by focusing the suction. The tower is not actually close enough to the exhaust plume so as to be significantly heated by it. As I said earlier I mentioned ceramics because with a heat-resistant lining you could make the tower's inner diameter tighter, thus increasing the pressure and vacuum effect.
By "dirty" I meant more along the lines of "has no care about the environment" rather than literally dirty. On the face of it, a giant plume of plasma seems to be pretty environmentally destructive. Putting that much heat into the air will probably ruin someones day down the line.Ok, well...I wasn't too far off base as to why you posted this then.
Fifty years ago or so, the Soviet Union and USA did some experimentation with MHD generators. They used coal pulverized like it is today (fine as talcum powder) seeded with potassium (higher electric conductivity) and sent that through as fuel. Then they recycled the heat to a boiler. Problem was they couldnt' get it hot enough to be any more effecient than technology that was already out there. I believe the hotest they could get their "plasma" was 6000 degrees? Don't quote me on that tho...been a while since I've read about it. Found a bit of info for you.
Maybe there is another 'dirty' fuel they can use? Depends on how far out the setting is.
So, basically, you'd be doing fusion of oxygen and nitrogen? It's hard to imagine that being a good energy producer but then I haven't seen the math.I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.
Seriously tho, you have to get the temperature like 5x hotter than the surface of the Sun. Which is doable (as I've found out) with today's technology. There are just a few things that I have to test to verify my hypothesis...and that requires big gov't money; unfortunately.
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
And what I'm trying to tell you is that it is exceedingly hard to predict what paths plasma takes and that is why you MUST have magnetic confinement. They have supercomputers dedicated to modeling their behaviour; that is one of the reasons why fusion is still not here yet. So in actuality no, the purple shape will most certainly NOT be the exhaust.Now the gray box is the fusion reactor, the purple shape is the exhaust plasma, the teal the tower structure and the green and red are air circulation paths. Without the tower the air would circulate roughly like the green path. The tower forces more air to be sucked up with the exhaust plume at the base and at higher speeds by focusing the suction. The tower is not actually close enough to the exhaust plume so as to be significantly heated by it. As I said earlier I mentioned ceramics because with a heat-resistant lining you could make the tower's inner diameter tighter, thus increasing the pressure and vacuum effect.
And what I was specifically referring to was the idea that if you are utilizing these massive plasma discharge devices in a "modern-era" setting, then coal may or may not be gone. And yes, whatever ionized particles that don't get captured by the electrodes in the chamber will escape into the atmo. Which could result in massive electrical storms centered over each of your power plants. Hmmm...is that the answer you were looking for?By "dirty" I meant more along the lines of "has no care about the environment" rather than literally dirty. On the face of it, a giant plume of plasma seems to be pretty environmentally destructive. Putting that much heat into the air will probably ruin someones day down the line.
Not fusion, ionization.So, basically, you'd be doing fusion of oxygen and nitrogen? It's hard to imagine that being a good energy producer but then I haven't seen the math.
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"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -Ozzy
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"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -Ozzy
"Cheerleaders are dancers who have gone retarded." - Sparky Polastri
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- krakonfour
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
I have a few questions:
-Just how much more energy are you getting out of the fusion reaction with this tower concept?
-Why would air be used as a fuel? This tells me that most of the fusion's energy is released as gamma rays... which isn't easy (impossible) to harness in a meaningful way.
-You need to heat up your fuel to about 15 million Kelvin to start producing positive fusion (more energy out than in). That's a lot. Hydrogen isotopes fusion becomes useful at less than half of that temperature.
-Considering the above, WHY ARE YOU THROWING AWAY FUEL THAT USED UP TERRAWATTS TO HEAT UP? The plume design doesn't even allow it to fuse completely.
-Because of the flowing nature of the fuel, you need to heat up the air to 15MK before it exits your heating element instead of a slow bake like in closed fusion cycles. Thus, terrawatts are required. Will your plant produce that much?
-Hot gas wants to expand. 15MPK wants to vaporize everything in its path. You therefore need to contain it while it is being heated, and you cannot use solid materials at those temperatures. Thus, you need to ionize it so that it interacts with the magnetic fields around the heating element. And I'll tell you, if a magnetic bottle is like holding a mass of jelly inside magnetic bands, then a flowing magnetic bottle is like trying replace the Deepwater Horizon oil cap with rubber bands.
-Because of the point above, you need to accelerate the fuel so that it gets squeezed through the magnetic bottleneck instead of just going the other way. How do you accelerate fuel fast enough to get through the requires magnetic fields? Long linear accelerators.
-So... you need to ionize the air. Because having a lot of ions together is bad, you're going to have to work with a fast, low density stream of ionized air, which does wonders to your fusion reaction.
-How do you account for air being... well, dirty? Not smog-dirty, not impurities-dirty, but parts-per-trillion of unwanted stuff dirty? The parameters of the temperature, acceleration and magnetic fields are set to work for a given concentration of oxygen and nitrogen, and anything else will throw them off balance, or worse, shut everything down and make everything radioactive.
So... unless you have solutions for these problems, extracting hydrogen and bombarding it with neutrons to make a regular closed fusion reactor is going to be better.
-Just how much more energy are you getting out of the fusion reaction with this tower concept?
-Why would air be used as a fuel? This tells me that most of the fusion's energy is released as gamma rays... which isn't easy (impossible) to harness in a meaningful way.
-You need to heat up your fuel to about 15 million Kelvin to start producing positive fusion (more energy out than in). That's a lot. Hydrogen isotopes fusion becomes useful at less than half of that temperature.
-Considering the above, WHY ARE YOU THROWING AWAY FUEL THAT USED UP TERRAWATTS TO HEAT UP? The plume design doesn't even allow it to fuse completely.
-Because of the flowing nature of the fuel, you need to heat up the air to 15MK before it exits your heating element instead of a slow bake like in closed fusion cycles. Thus, terrawatts are required. Will your plant produce that much?
-Hot gas wants to expand. 15MPK wants to vaporize everything in its path. You therefore need to contain it while it is being heated, and you cannot use solid materials at those temperatures. Thus, you need to ionize it so that it interacts with the magnetic fields around the heating element. And I'll tell you, if a magnetic bottle is like holding a mass of jelly inside magnetic bands, then a flowing magnetic bottle is like trying replace the Deepwater Horizon oil cap with rubber bands.
-Because of the point above, you need to accelerate the fuel so that it gets squeezed through the magnetic bottleneck instead of just going the other way. How do you accelerate fuel fast enough to get through the requires magnetic fields? Long linear accelerators.
-So... you need to ionize the air. Because having a lot of ions together is bad, you're going to have to work with a fast, low density stream of ionized air, which does wonders to your fusion reaction.
-How do you account for air being... well, dirty? Not smog-dirty, not impurities-dirty, but parts-per-trillion of unwanted stuff dirty? The parameters of the temperature, acceleration and magnetic fields are set to work for a given concentration of oxygen and nitrogen, and anything else will throw them off balance, or worse, shut everything down and make everything radioactive.
So... unless you have solutions for these problems, extracting hydrogen and bombarding it with neutrons to make a regular closed fusion reactor is going to be better.
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- Imperial528
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
Ah, well why didn't you just say so? (If you did and I missed it, sorry. )cadbrowser wrote:And what I'm trying to tell you is that it is exceedingly hard to predict what paths plasma takes and that is why you MUST have magnetic confinement. They have supercomputers dedicated to modeling their behaviour; that is one of the reasons why fusion is still not here yet. So in actuality no, the purple shape will most certainly NOT be the exhaust.
And what I was specifically referring to was the idea that if you are utilizing these massive plasma discharge devices in a "modern-era" setting, then coal may or may not be gone. And yes, whatever ionized particles that don't get captured by the electrodes in the chamber will escape into the atmo. Which could result in massive electrical storms centered over each of your power plants. Hmmm...is that the answer you were looking for?[/quote]By "dirty" I meant more along the lines of "has no care about the environment" rather than literally dirty. On the face of it, a giant plume of plasma seems to be pretty environmentally destructive. Putting that much heat into the air will probably ruin someones day down the line.
Yes, that's good. Hell, we could put this on a volcano and have a little mount doom! With storms and all!
This both makes it clearer and more confusing, so maybe we can discuss this later.Not fusion, ionization.
Krakon, is your post directed at me or cad or what? It's rather jumbled and hard to tell since quite a few of those questions don't apply to what I have been saying in the thread.
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
Curse my inelloquence! I thought I did; maybe I rambled on that part towhere it didn't come out as clearly as I'd hoped. Oh look, a squirrel!Ah, well why didn't you just say so?
Magma doesn't look like it gets hot enough to cause Ionization. BUT...this would be a cool additative to your friend's 'world' towhere the builders are using the heat from the volcano as a pre-heater for the air ingested to be ionized! Or whatever.Yes, that's good. Hell, we could put this on a volcano and have a little mount doom! With storms and all!
Unfortunatly that is about the best I can describe it without going into the actual specks of my design. Which that might require a whole new thread all it's own.This both makes it clearer and more confusing, so maybe we can discuss this later.
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
Oh, sorry, I was answering directly to the first post, not the conversation that followed.
Also, the questions were about the idea in general, and the difficulties of open-cycle air-fuelled fusion.
Also, the questions were about the idea in general, and the difficulties of open-cycle air-fuelled fusion.
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- Imperial528
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
Hehe, I hear ya there.cadbrowser wrote:Curse my inelloquence! I thought I did; maybe I rambled on that part towhere it didn't come out as clearly as I'd hoped. Oh look, a squirrel!Ah, well why didn't you just say so?
Magma doesn't look like it gets hot enough to cause Ionization. BUT...this would be a cool additative to your friend's 'world' towhere the builders are using the heat from the volcano as a pre-heater for the air ingested to be ionized! Or whatever.[/quote]Yes, that's good. Hell, we could put this on a volcano and have a little mount doom! With storms and all!
Well this thing will be in a place we have dubbed the "Corporate Badlands" so I wouldn't be surprised if someone built a strip mine on a volcano under the reasoning of "Damn it, there's diamonds/resources there! Who cares about all the lava that'll pour out when we remove them and the rock they're in?"
Or strip-mining into a magma tube...
PM me your e-mail address and let's see if we can talk about it in a more conversational setting.Unfortunatly that is about the best I can describe it without going into the actual specks of my design. Which that might require a whole new thread all it's own.
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
What I'm curious about is... why is it advantageous not to put a containment housing around this thing? I think I missed that part.
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
As I understand it, the basic idea is that you've got a thing that produces lots of very hot gas . . . wouldn't some kind of fancy high-tech (and likely very large) gas turbine be in order?
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
way to small for that. it's not even the size of a decent volacano
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
Also, exactly how does ionizing huge amounts of gas help with anything? I'm unclear on exactly how this creates a self-sustaining fusion reaction. One of the key aspects of a working fusion reactor has to be control; you must control what goes into the reaction in order to control what goes out. Here, we seem to be deliberately throwing control to the winds.
If this thing is open-air, what happens if the air gets more humid and it starts sucking water vapor into the reactor? Hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, and argon are all very different substances when it comes to their behavior in a fusion reaction, and all are present in air as non-trace constituents. Hydrogen in particular, from water vapor, comes at you in varying degrees.
If this thing is open-air, what happens if the air gets more humid and it starts sucking water vapor into the reactor? Hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, and argon are all very different substances when it comes to their behavior in a fusion reaction, and all are present in air as non-trace constituents. Hydrogen in particular, from water vapor, comes at you in varying degrees.
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
The ionization aspect comes from my actual design; there is no fusion. I think you and some of the others are getting the ideas crossed and mixed up a bit. Initially the OP started as a fusion/fission type power plant, but it since has turned into a possible MHD generator (plasma type).
Also, the open-air aspect is for exhaust only. The "black box" aspect of it (where the exhaust comes from) is intended to be controlled per the modern-era setting represented. The OP, if I may, just really wanted to know what atmospheric rammifications there would be if you had this massive powerplant (fusion/fission/MHD or otherwise) that spewed superheated (even ionized?) exhaust into the air.
It is for a setting, so the thing not need to actually work IRL; it just needs to exist.
Also, the open-air aspect is for exhaust only. The "black box" aspect of it (where the exhaust comes from) is intended to be controlled per the modern-era setting represented. The OP, if I may, just really wanted to know what atmospheric rammifications there would be if you had this massive powerplant (fusion/fission/MHD or otherwise) that spewed superheated (even ionized?) exhaust into the air.
It is for a setting, so the thing not need to actually work IRL; it just needs to exist.
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
As long as these "Corporate Badlands" serve a major part of the setting and interplay with the PCs and NPCs alike, then I would support putting that detail into it. If it is just one of those "unique" cool things that adds flair, I think you and your friend need to take another look at it. You don't want to miss an opportunity to bring that area "to life" you know.Well this thing will be in a place we have dubbed the "Corporate Badlands" so I wouldn't be surprised if someone built a strip mine on a volcano under the reasoning of "Damn it, there's diamonds/resources there! Who cares about all the lava that'll pour out when we remove them and the rock they're in?"
Or strip-mining into a magma tube...
Sent! If you want to CC your friend on it as well; that'd work too.PM me your e-mail address and let's see if we can talk about it in a more conversational setting.
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"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -Ozzy
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
There's going to be practically no effect.
It'd look a bit like this, and would probably generate a steady breeze towards it at ground level and might induce enough turbulent air directly above that planes would avoid it. Nothing else. Compared to the size of the atmosphere, this is like a tea light in an olympic stadium.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24158666/
It'd look a bit like this, and would probably generate a steady breeze towards it at ground level and might induce enough turbulent air directly above that planes would avoid it. Nothing else. Compared to the size of the atmosphere, this is like a tea light in an olympic stadium.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24158666/
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- Imperial528
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
Oh yeah, we've put quite a bit of work into it, actually. It's for a nation role play my friend, myself, and two others are joining, and my friend's character owns a major corporation with holdings in the Badlands.cadbrowser wrote:As long as these "Corporate Badlands" serve a major part of the setting and interplay with the PCs and NPCs alike, then I would support putting that detail into it. If it is just one of those "unique" cool things that adds flair, I think you and your friend need to take another look at it. You don't want to miss an opportunity to bring that area "to life" you know.
Well, I don't think a volcano is an apt comparison. I know it won't effect the entirety of the atmosphere very much at all, but I figure that the local effects of pumping relatively large amounts of plasma at millions of degrees would have to amount to something interesting at the least.madd0ct0r wrote:There's going to be practically no effect.
It'd look a bit like this, and would probably generate a steady breeze towards it at ground level and might induce enough turbulent air directly above that planes would avoid it. Nothing else. Compared to the size of the atmosphere, this is like a tea light in an olympic stadium.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24158666/
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Re: Fusion Bottle in the Atmosphere
Relatively large amounts at millions of degrees.Imperial528 wrote: I know it won't effect the entirety of the atmosphere very much at all, but I figure that the local effects of pumping relatively large amounts of plasma at millions of degrees would have to amount to something interesting at the least.
We're going to need some sense of scale. For example, the current objective is numbered in the micrograms, and even at millions of degrees, you're releasing a few MJ into the air at most.
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