"Rape Culture": The discussion

[Lagmonster]

Okay, what is a 'rape culture'? It's all I'm hearing about on the radio this week.

In this case, a private online chat between five men was captured somehow by an anonymous party. The chat log contained explicit sexual dialog about a female member of the student council that the five were opposed to politically. The boys themselves defended it as locker-room guy talk and never meant for public eyes. The men have apologized and stated outright that violence towards women is unacceptable and acknowledged their private conversation was offensive. In response, students and legislators are talking about a 'rape culture' and calling for authorities to 'do something about it', with suggestions ranging from the useless to the Orwellian.

The problem is this: In a week, four people have offered two different definitions of what 'rape culture' is, and one admits that there is no agreed-upon definition. I've heard one person say that it is "any group that condones or sanctions or excuses rape". Okay, that makes sense - if you don't think rape is a crime, then that person won't consider taking accusations seriously or may protect rapists.

But it gets hazy from there; what I'm hearing frequently is that rape culture includes people who, quote exactly, "tell rape jokes, who trivialize rape, or who (openly or privately) sexually objectify women". Two professors, on the radio, openly called for these boys to face mandatory 're-education' courses, and when I heard that I almost did a double-take while driving on the highway.

Is that correct? Does that make sense? If people are going to start passing actual rules whereby people can be penalized for privately-held conversations and beliefs, however offensive they are, I'd at least like to see an agreement of what the justification is first.

[Channel72]

I don't see much difference between this and a bunch of hicks joking about lynching black people or whatever.

Basically, idiots spouting ridiculously offensive bullshit - which, alas, is their right in the US.

[Borgholio]

I don't see how it's a rape culture by having a few guys talking about (jokingly, I presume) rape that they never actually intend to carry out or spread beyond their own little chat group. By that logic, talking about running someone off the road deliberately because they're texting while driving is supporting a road rage culture.

I think that rape is a serious issue, but there's a difference between a private conversation on the subject and flat out publicly posting "This female politician deserves to be raped due to her party affiliation."

[JLTucker]

I think "rape culture" consists of a pervasive culture that makes light of rape, has minimal punishment, blames the victim, jokes about it incessantly (America's media does), runs people out of town, etc. This is true of American society. You have television programs that condone rape (How I Met Your Mother). You have stand up comedians that joke about raping someone. You have people riot when someone is in trouble for raping boys. You have religious figures glossing over rape. You have judges giving light sentences. You have a group of people who insist women "had it coming" because of the way they dressed. The list goes on. It is a culture that does exist and it won't go away until people are educated.

[Simon_Jester]

Basically, the problem is that rapes persist because of this culture, so obviously anyone with sense is going to want to do something about it. But then you have to ask "how do you do something about it?" Whereas private racism and 'lynching culture' or whatever pretty well evaporated on their own after desegregation in most of the US, 'rape culture' seems to have outlasted women's lib. And it's remaining a major thing among young men, who we would normally hope would be the most aware and responsible about it as cultural attitudes grow more enlightened.

And basically, the answers we have boil down to:

1) Wave our hands and stammer ineffectually.
2) Orwellian re-education programs
3) Figuring out how to actually hammer it into teenage males that this is FUCKING WRONG and NOT FUNNY and so on, and making it at least as outre as racist jokes if not more so... which requires somehow convincing a sixteen year old male that no REALLY means no and that it isn't even funny to talk about it as something else.

I had more faith in this being possible before I was thrown back into contact with some of the horrible, asinine little excuses-for-human-beings a lot of males are at sixteen.

[JLTucker]

Can you clarify what you mean by "Orwellian re-education programs", Simon?

[Channel72]

But it gets hazy from there; what I'm hearing frequently is that rape culture includes people who, quote exactly, "tell rape jokes, who trivialize rape, or who (openly or privately) sexually objectify women". Two professors, on the radio, openly called for these boys to face mandatory 're-education' courses, and when I heard that I almost did a double-take while driving on the highway.

Good luck getting men to stop sexually objectifying women.

Look, women are "sex objects" to men, in the sense that women literally are objects of sexual interest to men. I don't care how PC we're all trying to be - any heterosexual male is going to have trouble NOT thinking about sex in the presence of an attractive woman. To expect men not to be candid about this sort of thing, especially among close friends, is sort of absurd. Note that this isn't necessarily incompatible with viewing women as equal human beings with their own goals, desires and needs.

But rape culture is something entirely different. Rape culture is more like, trivializing the humanity of women completely and outright denying women (via physical force) the right to make their own choice about who to be intimate with.

The bizarre thing, to me at least, is that... seriously, rape really isn't funny. And I don't mean that in a pedagogical or correctional sense - I mean rape is literally not funny, in the sense that it really doesn't make me laugh in any way. Who actually thinks it's funny? Sure, even murder can be funny sometimes... Shakespeare jokes about murder, after all. But rape? Rape is just... disturbing and pathetic really. There's nothing remotely funny about it.

[InsaneTD]

From what I've read and seen from a few places is that it's not just about rape, it should really be called sexual abuse culture. That doesn't have quite the same effect on people though, but it is what it covers, all forms of unwanted sexual contact. There are a couple women follower on tumblr (I won't link because of the nature of their blogs) that are very anti rape culture and they seem to believe that girls are taught to be a victim and that boys are taught that they don't have control over themselves, they are saying it's a subconscious part of society, but that it's there.

Personally, I think we need to be teaching people to respect more. Not just women, but everyone, and everything. People seem to believe that respect is earned, yet they instantly expect to get it from everyone they meet. I respect people until they prove to me they don't deserve it.I also respect property that isn't mine.

[Simon_Jester]

Can you clarify what you mean by "Orwellian re-education programs", Simon?

Things like "if we catch you talking about this stuff, even in a private setting, you should be forced to sit through a barrage of sensitivity training until it sticks."

"Orwellian" might be too strong a word- partly I was mirroring Lagomonster. But it does raise some basic issues because we're quite literally introducing this as a class of thoughtcrime: a person who thinks certain things, or says them, even with no actual intention of acting on them, even when they're not threatening anyone directly, is subject to punishment.

[Grumman]

Personally, I think the standard definition of "rape culture" is stupid thoughtcrime bullshit.

In the US military, women have been drummed out or threatened with court-martials in order to protect their rapists. That is rape culture. The Prime Minister of Japan literally believes that kidnappers, murderers and rapists are war heroes, and whitewashes their crimes by claiming their victims were willing participants. That is rape culture. Men thinking women are sexually attractive isn't rape culture. Talking about a person's sexual attractiveness can certainly be harassment, but that is not the same thing as being a rapist sympathiser.

[Guardsman Bass]

It sounds like there was more to the conversation in the locker room aside from them talking about how the female student council member was hot. I can't imagine that leading to all the hub-bub, unless they were making rape jokes and the like.

In any case, "rape culture" isn't about thinking women are sexually attractive, except maybe in some of the more extreme corners of feminism and gender studies. It's basically as JL Tucker said - making light of sexual harassment and sexual assault (see "eve-teasing" if you want a very blunt example of that), acting as though sexual assault/rape victims had it coming for behavior or even blaming them for being assaulted, and acting as though sexual harassment is "all in good fun" or "just a mistake" even when it often isn't. It's especially pernicious because the sociological evidence seems to be leaning towards sexual assault being disproportionately committed by a comparatively small percentage of the population (which would go along with what we generally know about criminals who do multiple violent crimes). Trivializing rape and rape victims thus tends to discourage reporting of rape offenses and allows offenders to commit repeat offenses.

[JLTucker]

Personally, I think the standard definition of "rape culture" is stupid thoughtcrime bullshit.

How the hell is being disgusted by a rape joke a "thought crime"?

Men thinking women are sexually attractive isn't rape culture. Talking about a person's sexual attractiveness can certainly be harassment, but that is not the same thing as being a rapist sympathiser.

This is a strawman and I'd ask you to elaborate and show examples of people thinking this is rape culture.

[Guardsman Bass]

This is a strawman and I'd ask you to elaborate and show examples of people thinking this is rape culture.

I'm sure he could probably dig up somebody on the internet saying something like that,. But it's very, very much a minority opinion.

[StarSword]

Figuring out how to actually hammer it into teenage males that this is FUCKING WRONG and NOT FUNNY and so on, and making it at least as outre as racist jokes if not more so... which requires somehow convincing a sixteen year old male that no REALLY means no and that it isn't even funny to talk about it as something else.

That solution is one I've seen in use on flyers and so forth posted on my university campus. The people making them call themselves Red Flag Campaign, and one of the posters has a guy talking about getting a girl drunk so he can get some, and then the person behind the camera says words to the effect of "Are you fucking brain-dead?" They don't limit themselves to hetero relationships either: one in my dorm clubhouse has a gay guy talking about his boyfriend.

Another I've seen was I think put up by a feminist group, using words to the effect of, "Don't teach girls how not to get raped. Teach boys not to rape."

[JLTucker]

This is a strawman and I'd ask you to elaborate and show examples of people thinking this is rape culture.

I'm sure he could probably dig up somebody on the internet saying something like that,. But it's very, very much a minority opinion.

Sure. But then I would ask if this person is influential in the fight against rape.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

This discussion strikes me as a manufactured crisis to hook listeners. Incidence of rape and sexual assault in the US has dropped over the years despite the supposed rise of some "rape culture". In fact, over time and across different cultures, the more acceptable it has become to talk (and even joke) about the topic, the less it happens. Many of you may not find humor in any rape joke, but the fact that they have become more common signifies a positive social trend, not some "rape culture" we should be alarmed about.

[Guardsman Bass]

Why are you assuming they've become more common? They just tend to get noticed and criticized more now - rape jokes go back further.

[Alyrium Denryle]

This discussion strikes me as a manufactured crisis to hook listeners. Incidence of rape and sexual assault in the US has dropped over the years despite the supposed rise of some "rape culture". In fact, over time and across different cultures, the more acceptable it has become to talk (and even joke) about the topic, the less it happens. Many of you may not find humor in any rape joke, but the fact that they have become more common signifies a positive social trend, not some "rape culture" we should be alarmed about.

1. The rate of rape seen in crime stats is the rate of rape REPORTED. We know rape is massively under-reported.

2. If rape culture has gotten worse, we expect more shame and more reluctance to come forward with rape accusations

3. Ergo, if rape culture is getting worse, we expect more rapes to go unreported.

Therefore your proposed causal chain does not make any fucking sense.

But it gets hazy from there; what I'm hearing frequently is that rape culture includes people who, quote exactly, "tell rape jokes, who trivialize rape, or who (openly or privately) sexually objectify women". Two professors, on the radio, openly called for these boys to face mandatory 're-education' courses, and when I heard that I almost did a double-take while driving on the highway.

Is that correct? Does that make sense? If people are going to start passing actual rules whereby people can be penalized for privately-held conversations and beliefs, however offensive they are, I'd at least like to see an agreement of what the justification is first.

Ok. I finally get to pull out the coursework in Womens Studies.

Rape Culture is a pervasive cultural attitude that facilitates and is permissive of rape. It can take numerous forms depending on the culture being examined. In a western context, it takes the form of various rape myths that are pervasive in our culture (She wanted it because X, she was not raped she was drunk etc), certain types of rape jokes, even the cultural trope where a woman is a reward for some deed or another (because it fosters a sense of entitlement).

The last one is less obvious, but it revolves around the woman in question not having agency. It is one thing for a man to find a woman attractive, that is not what objectification is. Objectification is when she is reduced to nothing more than an object of sexual attraction and her agency as a human being is either irrelevant (because it is treated as a given that she will sleep with the race winner or whatever), or removed entirely. This is a part of Rape Culture, because a large portion of human sexual and gender scripting is acquired socially. What is expected of you and others is something that to a large extent is culturally acquired. So, if in the course of that social acquisition a woman is treated as some sort of reward for proper action, a sense of entitlement can be created that leads to rape. If the dominant cultural script for dating is, for example, that if the man does X,Y,Z (pays for dinner etc) the woman will play "hard to get" but will eventually succumb to his advances and permit sex...well you can see how that will lead to date rape. In fact there have been surveys of teenagers asking them if certain scenarios are rape... it is bad. Some 30 percent indicated that date rape was not in fact rape.

The re-education courses are intended to teach men not to rape. To try to deprogram all the built up cultural shit that is rape culture. This is opposed to the other option, which is to teach women how to avoid being raped, which implicitly blames them when they are raped.

[Grumman]

1. The rate of rape seen in crime stats is the rate of rape REPORTED. We know rape is massively under-reported.

2. If rape culture has gotten worse, we expect more shame and more reluctance to come forward with rape accusations

3. Ergo, if rape culture is getting worse, we expect more rapes to go unreported.

Therefore your proposed causal chain does not make any fucking sense.

That is a stupid argument that makes any claim about the prevalence of rape unfalsifiable.

Rape statistics up? People are more likely to commit rape! Rape culture!
Rape statistics down? People are less likely to report rape! Rape culture!

Reported homicide rates, reported robbery rates and reported aggravated assault rates are falling at the same time reported rape rates are falling. What's next, another chicken little dance about how the murderers are getting better at hiding the bodies?

[Alyrium Denryle]

That is a stupid argument that makes any claim about the prevalence of rape unfalsifiable.

No idiot, it means you need to use other numbers. For example, you can use data taken by phone or door to door surveys, which are more accurate (they have their own problems, but they are better than using crime report data). You can then do a demographic breakdown of your respondents to get age-structured risk and data on repeat victimizations.

[Channel72]

The re-education courses are intended to teach men not to rape. To try to deprogram all the built up cultural shit that is rape culture. This is opposed to the other option, which is to teach women how to avoid being raped, which implicitly blames them when they are raped.

These two options are not mutually exclusive, and the latter is simply practical. It doesn't necessarily cast implicit blame on women for being raped, any more than I might be blamed for being mugged after walking through a dangerous part of town at night.

[Simon_Jester]

The re-education courses are intended to teach men not to rape. To try to deprogram all the built up cultural shit that is rape culture. This is opposed to the other option, which is to teach women how to avoid being raped, which implicitly blames them when they are raped.

I would think it possible to do both. And pursuant to the avoid-rape teachings, to teach women things the characteristic danger signs of "this is a guy who is messed up and likely to commit rape, call the authorities and/or this hotline if he's making you nervous."

Say, something like this, and many of the other pages linked to it:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/profile.html

[Alyrium Denryle]

The re-education courses are intended to teach men not to rape. To try to deprogram all the built up cultural shit that is rape culture. This is opposed to the other option, which is to teach women how to avoid being raped, which implicitly blames them when they are raped.

These two options are not mutually exclusive, and the latter is simply practical. It doesn't necessarily cast implicit blame on women for being raped, any more than I might be blamed for being mugged after walking through a dangerous part of town at night.

No, they are not. But the latter option is often done to the exclusion of the former and you see the effect in rape trials "why was she dressed that way?", "if she did not want it, why did she go to a frat party" etc.

[Simon_Jester]

Then your problem is, well, a chunk of the rape culture. For instance, the idea that a woman either wants "it" or doesn't, and if she does want sex she has no right to even have a say in the question "yes, but sex with whom?" Or to meet men and evaluate them before deciding whether or not to have sex with them after all.

Madonna-whore complex, basically.

In my opinion this has little to do with rape-avoidance training, because people had this attitude long before there was much serious effort to teach women to be on the alert and detect men who might rape them.

[Oskuro]

Conceptually, I generalize rape culture as an aspect of tribal xenophobia, that is, people who have a quality that the "tribe" identifies as external to them (the "others") are simplified, objectified and judged based on those qualities, with no other purpose than asserting the validity of the "tribe"'s identity.

Regarding rape culture, to me it looks like a male-dominated culture needs to see women as "others" that all men can "unite against" to validate their masculinity, and the sexual objectification, to the point where sex appeal becomes the major (and often only) trait of value in a woman, exists to dehumanize women so empathy cannot throw a wrench into the group validation process.

Same could be said about homophobia, or racism, or religious intolerance, really. Even sports, or fandom. Plenty of situations where groups are simplified for the single purpose of feeling superior to them.


Of course, rape culture is complicated by the nature of sexuality, but I feel that's the general mechanism.

Anecdote time: I've had men grow angry when I didn't validate their opinion on the hotness of women, namely when I didn't consider certain women to be as ugly as they considered them to be. My interpretation? That the whole "let's talk about hot chicks" thing is more about men validating each other by defining they type of women they want to be associated with, and by denying their standards I was, in essence, denying their identity. Cue narcissistic injury, cue anger.

Full disclosure: I've been reading a lot of The Last Psychiatrist lately, and might be seeing narcissism everywhere as a consequence, but a lot of what he posts makes a lot of sense in relation to my own observations (Mainly about myself).

Fun Time: This Cracked article I think also makes a few very interesting points on the topic.