Is Cyborg Technology Really, Really Expensive?

[amigocabal]

[youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5legduANlo0[/youtube]

Something does not make sense here. She has millions of dollars and yet can not afford cyborg technology to let her walk again. If cyborg technology really that expensive? (I find it absurd that medicine circa 2008 (when the video was made) is no more capable of treating spinal cord injuries than witch doctors were in 2008 B.C.. For God's sake, 2008 is in the 21st century.)

[Lord Revan]

the main problem as far as I can tell is that bypassing or replacing the nervous system with electronics is not simple or cheap since the workings of human nerves are alot more complex then most people realize.

[Simon_Jester]

We're massively better at treating spinal cord injuries now than we were in ancient times. Huge numbers of people have learned to walk again with modern therapy treatments, who would have been totally crippled a century ago. Others who still lack the use of their legs (or more) can lead more productive lives thanks to advances in our medical support for the disabled.

By the same token, we're better at treating joint injuries, brain injuries, abdominal injuries, heart injuries...

What we have NOT gotten is the ability to "treat" these injuries in the sense of making them go away as if they never happened, or to cure a patient whose spine, joints, brain, guts, or heart are utterly destroyed and wrecked. We can reassemble a broken joint like a jigsaw puzzle- but it's not going to be the same again afterwards. Compare that the status quo in ancient times when they had not a prayer of fixing the thing at all.

We can operate on a brain tumor, which was by definition untreatable until the 20th century. But you're damn lucky if your brain surgery doesn't have lasting consequences.

And so it goes. Medical science as we know it does amazing things by premodern standards. What it does NOT do is give us our wildest fantasies. As far as I'm concerned, prosthetics that perfectly replace natural body parts are one of those fantasies. We may invent them later, but it's utterly pig-ignorant to complain just because they haven't been invented yet.

I mean, what are you going to do for an encore, complain that for all its trillions of dollars the US government can't afford warp drive technology? That technology does not exist, has literally not been invented yet. Just waving a huge wad of cash around will not automatically bring the technology into existence; there are unsolved problems that must be addressed first.

[Broomstick]

Something does not make sense here. She has millions of dollars and yet can not afford cyborg technology to let her walk again. If cyborg technology really that expensive?

That sort of technology does not exist.

Yes, there are devices that can artificially stimulate leg muscles and force a paraplegic to stand up but those aren't normal muscle contractions and the muscles can only tolerate a limited amount of such stimulation before they start to break down, and the people who use these devices need significant upper body strength to help support themselves and utilize a walking frame or crutches to have even a crude mobility. It should be noted that so far that has only been used in people with leg paralysis - this woman is paralyzed from the chest down. Not only her leg muscles would need stimulation, the muscles of her lower torso would need it as well as she is a quadriplegic. She can't grip a frame or crutches, or manipulate them. We simply don't have anything for that.

I find it absurd that medicine circa 2008 (when the video was made) is no more capable of treating spinal cord injuries than witch doctors were in 2008 B.C.. For God's sake, 2008 is in the 21st century.

Are you kidding? As recently as the 19th Century a broken neck was invariably fatal within a short time period. Just the modern protocols for spinal injury that utilize things like steroids to reduce inflammation and surgery to stabilize a fractured spine have significantly improved outcomes. Antibiotics to control the inevitable urinary tract infections have made long term survival possible. Adaptive technology from motorized wheechairs to voice-operated devices have markedly improved quality of life and even enables some of these people to work for a living instead of being wholly dependent on charity.

Being a quadriplegic sucks, but it's a damn sight better than it was even 50 years ago.

[amigocabal]

the main problem as far as I can tell is that bypassing or replacing the nervous system with electronics is not simple or cheap since the workings of human nerves are alot more complex then most people realize.

I wonder what the complexity is. (We are of course, assuming that conventional physics can explain the workings of the human nervous system, for which there is no evidence to the contrary.)

I mean, what are you going to do for an encore, complain that for all its trillions of dollars the US government can't afford warp drive technology?

The idea of warp drive technology is outside the conventional understanding of physics . There is no indication that the the mechanism of the nervous system relies on anything outside of conventional physics. It is not as if the nervous system relies on very high energies(such as those used to operate supercolliders) or extra spacetime dimensions to function.

I do suspect that people in the 1950's would be surprised to hear that this particular problem has not been solved in 2008 (even absent an intervening atomic world war).

[Iroscato]

the main problem as far as I can tell is that bypassing or replacing the nervous system with electronics is not simple or cheap since the workings of human nerves are alot more complex then most people realize.

I wonder what the complexity is.

Seriously? Even the laziest of 5-second google searches comes up with this diagram of a nerve:

That is a single nerve. The nervous system contains thousands of these little fellas, it is one of the most extraordinarily complex organs in the natural world. Despite this, research forges ahead and improves little by little every day to better understand and repair this amazingly complicated system. All things being equal, I'd say we're doing rather well for ourselves.
EDIT: This is an article you may find interesting, amigocabal. True it's very recent, but the groundwork for such advances has been laid for a while now, and just recently we are able to start reaping the first rewards.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/ ... 7J20140408

[Simon_Jester]

the main problem as far as I can tell is that bypassing or replacing the nervous system with electronics is not simple or cheap since the workings of human nerves are alot more complex then most people realize.

I wonder what the complexity is. (We are of course, assuming that conventional physics can explain the workings of the human nervous system, for which there is no evidence to the contrary.)

Nerves aren't electric cables, is what it comes down to. They are electrochemical systems, that use chemical changes to ensure the electrical signals propagate along their length.

So to create a functioning interface between a nerve ending and a wire, you need the tip of your wire to somehow translate the nerve's chemical impulses as a signal to start sending an electrical impulse. You also need to be able to send an electrical impulse to your wire and be sure it will be accurately translated into a chemical signal in the nerve cells when it crosses the interface.

So far, this is not a solved problem, at least not with the desired level of reliability (rather high).

It is also very difficult to make the connections precisely enough, because unlike an inorganic multi-strand connector cable, you can't just unspool a nerve ending and solder the individual wires to your XYZ-pin connector.

I mean, what are you going to do for an encore, complain that for all its trillions of dollars the US government can't afford warp drive technology?

The idea of warp drive technology is outside the conventional understanding of physics . There is no indication that the the mechanism of the nervous system relies on anything outside of conventional physics. It is not as if the nervous system relies on very high energies(such as those used to operate supercolliders) or extra spacetime dimensions to function.

But it is staggeringly ignorant to assume that all technologies consistent with the known laws of physics will become available within one to two generations.

I do suspect that people in the 1950's would be surprised to hear that this particular problem has not been solved in 2008 (even absent an intervening atomic world war).

By the same token there were people in 1905 who would have been surprised that in the 1950s we didn't all live in giant flying zeppelin-cities.

Human beings are not good at accurately predicting technological change. We either expect too much (assume that fusion power and AI are right around the corner!) or expect too little (2015 will look just like 1985, only with flashier cars and smellier air!). Or, more hilariously yet, expect both at the same time (Star Trek people in flying starships traveling to other parts of the galaxy, whose communication devices are conspicuously inferior to a modern cell phone).

[amigocabal]

the main problem as far as I can tell is that bypassing or replacing the nervous system with electronics is not simple or cheap since the workings of human nerves are alot more complex then most people realize.

I wonder what the complexity is.

Seriously? Even the laziest of 5-second google searches comes up with this diagram of a nerve:

That is a single nerve. The nervous system contains thousands of these little fellas, it is one of the most extraordinarily complex organs in the natural world. Despite this, research forges ahead and improves little by little every day to better understand and repair this amazingly complicated system. All things being equal, I'd say we're doing rather well for ourselves.
EDIT: This is an article you may find interesting, amigocabal. True it's very recent, but the groundwork for such advances has been laid for a while now, and just recently we are able to start reaping the first rewards.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/ ... 7J20140408

I am guessing that the diameter of a nerve is about 1 mm. (strangely, I could not simply look it up.) The axons would have diameters in the micron range. The problem is how to manufacture signal-bearing fibers in the micron range, and insulate them- a a nutshell, miniaturization.

(We are of course, assuming that the neural bypasses are contained within the body, and not inside some type of Darth Vader-type armor where the bypasses could be contained outside the body and inside the shell.)

Nerves aren't electric cables, is what it comes down to. They are electrochemical systems, that use chemical changes to ensure the electrical signals propagate along their length.

So to create a functioning interface between a nerve ending and a wire, you need the tip of your wire to somehow translate the nerve's chemical impulses as a signal to start sending an electrical impulse. You also need to be able to send an electrical impulse to your wire and be sure it will be accurately translated into a chemical signal in the nerve cells when it crosses the interface.

So far, this is not a solved problem, at least not with the desired level of reliability (rather high).

Electrical synapses exist, where the signal is presumably generated by direct electrical stimulation. Connecting a wire to an electrical synapse would seem to be far simpler than with a chemical synapse (though of course miniaturization would be an issue.)

[Iroscato]

I am guessing that the diameter of a nerve is about 1 mm.

Smaller. Nerves vary in size but are in the micrometre range, never really exceeding 100 micrometres (1/10 of a millimetre). They can be as small as 4 micrometres I believe (4/1000 of a millimetre). The miniscule scale alone makes it extremely difficult for modern medicine to manipulate and repair, but we are getting there.

[Simon_Jester]

I am guessing that the diameter of a nerve is about 1 mm. (strangely, I could not simply look it up.) The axons would have diameters in the micron range. The problem is how to manufacture signal-bearing fibers in the micron range, and insulate them- a a nutshell, miniaturization.

As noted, the problem is not simply manufacturing the fibers, or miniaturizing them adequately. That's an issue but a manageable one. The problem is, quite simply and crudely, splicing the wires into the nerves.

If that task were easy we'd probably have had functioning cybernetic limbs for decades.

When dealing with two electronic devices, you splice cables by the crude and simple expedient of soldering the ends of the cables together, or by building some kind of integrated circuit that translates (very well defined, precise) impulses coming in on one cable into (equally well defined, precise) impulses going out the other one, using a well known and understood mathematical process.

It is somewhat less simple for a bundle of nerves that carries vast numbers of signals, and whose operating voltages and performance are difficult to measure precisely because you can't cut into one to stick a voltmeter on it, unless you're willing to damage it. Especially since the individual nerve fibers are so very very narrow.

Nerves aren't electric cables, is what it comes down to. They are electrochemical systems, that use chemical changes to ensure the electrical signals propagate along their length.

So to create a functioning interface between a nerve ending and a wire, you need the tip of your wire to somehow translate the nerve's chemical impulses as a signal to start sending an electrical impulse. You also need to be able to send an electrical impulse to your wire and be sure it will be accurately translated into a chemical signal in the nerve cells when it crosses the interface.

So far, this is not a solved problem, at least not with the desired level of reliability (rather high).

Electrical synapses exist, where the signal is presumably generated by direct electrical stimulation. Connecting a wire to an electrical synapse would seem to be far simpler than with a chemical synapse (though of course miniaturization would be an issue.)

It would seem so, except that chemistry and electrical impulses are totally tied up together in the nerves. You can't replace a nerve with a length of copper cable and expect it to work correctly.

Again, if this were easy enough for you to figure out over a weekend, it would have already happened.

If you really want to know what the main obstacles are, find someone who works in the field and email them, asking them "Dear Dr. So and So, I am curious about the field of cybernetic limbs, operated by nerve-electronic interfaces. What do you think are the main technological obstacles to making this technology a reality for widespread use?"

[Eternal_Freedom]

The idea of warp drive technology is outside the conventional understanding of physics . There is no indication that the the mechanism of the nervous system relies on anything outside of conventional physics. It is not as if the nervous system relies on very high energies(such as those used to operate supercolliders) or extra spacetime dimensions to function.

First, go back to 1900 and you'll find that just about every modern technology was "outside the conventional understanding of physics." Nuclear power/weapons? Nope, they'd have locked you up in a mental hospital for suggesting you could destroy cities by slamming small pieces of metal together. The whole field of quantum mechanics (and all derived fields) were beyond them, as was computing, medical scanners beyond crude x-ray machines (and IIRC those were very new at the time). Hell, heavier than air powered flight didn't exist, and the idea of supersonic flight was a author's fancy.

It's very difficult to say what we will develop. We can only extrapolate what we have now.

Oh, and incidentally, a warp drive is not beyond our current understanding. Go look up the Alcubierre drive. Mathematically it's possible and understood, just impossible to actually build.

[Irbis]

That sort of technology does not exist

The technology does exist. Sort of. The problem is, 'mobility' would be limited to the length of electric cord plugged into nearest socket as while we can make "muscles" the battery technology simply isn't there yet and I suspect won't be there for decades. This is one problem to which there are no walk-around solutions yet, others, like steering, are beatable or dodgeable, IMHO.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, amigocabal's original thing was this ignoramus idea that if we just spent enough money, it'd be easy to somehow replace the spinal cord specifically with some sort of graft or prosthetic. That's the part I don't think we can do.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well, amigocabal's original thing was this ignoramus idea that if we just spent enough money, it'd be easy to somehow replace the spinal cord specifically with some sort of graft or prosthetic. That's the part I don't think we can do.

Hopefully we'll be able to do it eventually. Maybe not in twenty years, maybe longer. but I'm sure we'll eventually devise some cunning solution.

[amigocabal]

Well, amigocabal's original thing was this ignoramus idea that if we just spent enough money, it'd be easy to somehow replace the spinal cord specifically with some sort of graft or prosthetic. That's the part I don't think we can do.

Hopefully we'll be able to do it eventually. Maybe not in twenty years, maybe longer. but I'm sure we'll eventually devise some cunning solution.

The only other solution I could think of, aside from RoboCop/Darth Vader type prosthetics, would be genetically modified parasitic worms that attach directly to the central nervous system and transmit the signals through their nervous systems, (apparently, the only known method of neurogenesis is growing a whole new organism, and it is much easier to fit a worm inside than say, a cat.) Of course, there are quite a few challenges to this as well (finding a suitable parasitic species, mapping the genome, safety precautions when testing, obtaining FDA approval...)

[Sea Skimmer]

The problem with repairs and replacement of the nervous system is while we understand the basics of how it works and transmits data cell to cell pretty well, we do not understand how it processes that data within cells. More and more research is indicating that nerves have a major processing function before information reaches the brain, and until we can model that we wont be able to make radical advances in cybernetics. Once we do understand it, we may well be able to replace anything we want, as it is possible to produce functional digital logic circuits on small enough scales. Though the programming with be very task specific and nightmarish unless we can also replicate the task focused learning function human nerves have.

[Simon_Jester]

The only other solution I could think of, aside from RoboCop/Darth Vader type prosthetics, would be genetically modified parasitic worms that attach directly to the central nervous system and transmit the signals through their nervous systems, (apparently, the only known method of neurogenesis is growing a whole new organism, and it is much easier to fit a worm inside than say, a cat.) Of course, there are quite a few challenges to this as well (finding a suitable parasitic species, mapping the genome, safety precautions when testing, obtaining FDA approval...)

...Are you out of your mind?

I mean, you're basically talking about genetically engineering a viable organism whose entire body is basically one big nerve fiber, that just happens to be compatible with human nerves to such an extent that it can just plug into them?

O_o

[Irbis]

The problem with repairs and replacement of the nervous system is while we understand the basics of how it works and transmits data cell to cell pretty well, we do not understand how it processes that data within cells.

Though, we don't need to understand it perfectly. Very crude sensor measuring general activity can suffice, to a degree. Take hearing aid implants - they produce extremely bad sound, nowhere near normal hearing, but what matters to deaf people is that they can hear and understand speech, no matter how limited.

Same for walking aids - we can produce exoskeleton that will take over, with nerve sensor that will tell computer 'nerve activity, move leg forward'. The nerve doesn't have to be perfectly read in order to make a step - computer can take care of that. The technology is basically there, just no one bothers because it's still limited to power cord range.

[Broomstick]

Not strictly true - there are limbs, including things like the recently approved "Luke" arm, that detect signals sent to residual muscles and nerves and uses those to control the limbs. Doing the reverse, where the user gets somewhat natural feedback, is lagging sharply, though. The technique is crude, though, and usually requires some learning for the human and some fine-tuning of the machine to the individual user. We've had the tech for awhile and it's slowly being refined. The increase of computing power in smaller and smaller physical devices is also helping. The increase of power storage in a given battery size is also hugely important.

The learning aspect of this is important, and illustrated by chochlear implants. Most people who acquire them after becoming deaf do report the sound as pretty lousy/artificial/limited/whatever... but over time their brain not only becomes more skilled at interpreting the signals, it starts to become more and more normal to the end user. The nervous system is capable of learning and adapting, and that's an important part of rehabbing someone with artificial bits.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Re: Luke arm - The arm receives signals from the muscle contractions, actually, not directly from the nerve. Basically, when the nerve causes the muscle to fire the muscle firing causes a small electrical discharge, which the electrodes pick up and send to a chip in the arm, which then translates the signal into movement. For feedback on grip force, it uses haptic feedback.

Nerve communication is... complicated. From my understanding, nerves communicate with each other using chemical signals that the nerve cells will convert to an electrical impulse along the axis of the nerve, which then becomes a chemical signal to the next nerve, and so on. This is a simplification, of course, but it's why neurotoxins can do their thing and why severe sodium deficiencies can be lethal. Also why it's so a bitch to try and use technology to talk to the nerves themselves. The voltage in a nerve is really low, and the chemical signaling isn't exactly easy to replicate. The body has processes for producing chemicals, but an implant would be lacking in that ability. There's a reason that there's such huge interest in getting nerve cells to replicate rather than simply making an implant that will communicate with the nerves. Much easier, in theory, and substantially less invasive with lower chance of rejection. Not 100% on how accurate I am with this, though. I'm sure school will help me get this down better, though.

Regarding messages sent along the spinal cord, it definitely is involved in more than just getting it to the brain. Lots of basic biology and medicine courses, even at high school level, make mention that the spinal cord is quite able to "decide" on a reflex before the brain has a chance to get involved. Touch a hot stove and the spinal cord pulls your hand back before your brain even knows there's pain going on. Just how much it "processes" signals, I don't know.

There's a reason that a degree in biomed (the field this stuff is in) requires you take physics, chemistry (general and organic), biology, lots of math, and then whatever gen ed classes the college in question needs. It's a complicated field. Exciting as hell, though. And it pays pretty well, even with just a BS.

[PKRudeBoy]

The only other solution I could think of, aside from RoboCop/Darth Vader type prosthetics, would be genetically modified parasitic worms that attach directly to the central nervous system and transmit the signals through their nervous systems, (apparently, the only known method of neurogenesis is growing a whole new organism, and it is much easier to fit a worm inside than say, a cat.) Of course, there are quite a few challenges to this as well (finding a suitable parasitic species, mapping the genome, safety precautions when testing, obtaining FDA approval...)

...Are you out of your mind?

I mean, you're basically talking about genetically engineering a viable organism whose entire body is basically one big nerve fiber, that just happens to be compatible with human nerves to such an extent that it can just plug into them?

O_o

We can call them Mind Worms. What's the worst that could happen?

[amigocabal]

The only other solution I could think of, aside from RoboCop/Darth Vader type prosthetics, would be genetically modified parasitic worms that attach directly to the central nervous system and transmit the signals through their nervous systems, (apparently, the only known method of neurogenesis is growing a whole new organism, and it is much easier to fit a worm inside than say, a cat.) Of course, there are quite a few challenges to this as well (finding a suitable parasitic species, mapping the genome, safety precautions when testing, obtaining FDA approval...)

...Are you out of your mind?

I mean, you're basically talking about genetically engineering a viable organism whose entire body is basically one big nerve fiber, that just happens to be compatible with human nerves to such an extent that it can just plug into them?

O_o

We can call them Mind Worms. What's the worst that could happen?

Has there been any sci-fi stories published around the concept? Although one advantage is that worms already have a nervous system, and it might be less problematic to link the nervous systems of two organisms that to interface a nervous system with electronics.

[Iroscato]

Has there been any sci-fi stories published around the concept?

I suspect not, mainly as the concept is known as 'bollocks'. But stranger things have happened, I guess.

[Guardsman Bass]

Can you induce activity in nerves without actually splicing into them, or doing whatever activity they're trying to send signals from (such as contracting your arm)? I was thinking of Cranial Stimulation as a comparison, but if you could do it with nerves, then you might be able to go around the issues involved with wiring an electronic implant directly to a nerve.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Depends on what you mean by "splicing into them." The "best" way to communicate with the nerves themselves would be chemical signals, I think. Which would not require actually physically connecting with a neuron. You'd just have to be able to get those signals to jump to each other. I could see someone figuring it out, but it'd be a challenge. To put it lightly. Chemical signals would likely be the best bet to avoid accidentally damaging the nerve, but...

Given current tech, I think restoring use of the spine would be easier to achieve by growing new cells where they need to go. Down the road, maybe someone will crack how to actually send and receive signals directly from the nerves, but that's some time off unless we get one hell of a "eureka!" moment. I mean, we basically know how one nerve signals another. Replicating that is harder.