Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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A team of scientists in China dropped a bombshell earlier this month, and almost nobody noticed.

Researchers led by Junjiu Huang of Yat-sen University in Guangzhou published the world’s first scientific paper on altering the DNA of human embryos.

The pioneering research is controversial, though it was conducted on damaged embryos that could not have developed into a human. Many scientists contend that newly developed genetic-engineering methods need to be studied further in animals before running the risk of unpredictable human mutations and scarier developments in human evolution:

How could such a monumental paper go unnoticed? It was published on April 11 in the little-known online journal Protein and Cell, after being rejected by the more prestigious journals Science and Nature—partly on the grounds that the research was unethical, according to a report by Nature’s news division, which operates independent of the scientific journal. And that rejection highlights a major divide in the world of advanced genetic research: Scientists have discovered a powerful new tool, but they are also very concerned about where it may lead.
CRISPR: A fresh technique

The idea behind genetic medicine is fairly simple, even if the details are complex. Copies of a unique genetic code—in the form of DNA—are present in almost every human cell. People suffering from genetic disorders possess mutated genes—that is, misplaced letters in their DNA. The idea, then, is to heal genetic disorders by fixing the gene itself.

In the last few years, researchers have developed a powerful new method of snipping out defective DNA strands and replacing them with healthy one. The breakthrough tool—touted by MIT Technology Review as perhaps the biggest biotech discovery of the century—that enabled Huang’s team to conduct its research is called CRISPR (that stands for Clustered Regularly Interspaced Short Palindromic Repeats, if you were wondering).

CRISPR was developed by observing the age-old battle between bacteria and viruses. In 2005, researchers discovered that bacteria use CRISPR genetic sequences as a biological weapon to remember, detect and dismember enemy viruses, honing in on specific sections of viral DNA and cutting them out.

Soon after this discovery, scientists were able to modify CRISPR to target genetic sequences in other living cells. This gave them the precision scissors that they had been looking for to target specific genes. It opened the door to fixing the mutated genes that cause hereditary disorders in both a very targeted way—honing in on specific DNA sequences—but also on a very broad scale, applied to every cell within an organism. CRISPR, combined with a few specialized proteins, essentially promises to be a find-and-replace tool for fixing damaged genetic material.

Here’s a video from MIT that goes into a little more detail:

Incidentally, some of the early CRISPR research was done by Rodolphe Barrangou, a scientist working for the yogurt company Danisco, who told the science writer Carl Zimmer that many dairy companies use CRISPR sequences in their bacterial cultures. “If you’ve eaten yogurt or cheese, chances are you’ve eaten CRISPR-ized cells,” he told Zimmer.
Mixed results

Huang’s team didn’t experiment with viable human embryos. Instead they used some of the abnormal, non-viable embryos that are inevitably created as part of in-vitro fertilization therapy, such as when two sperms insert their DNA into a single egg.

The team injected 86 embryos with engineered CRISPR sequences that targeted genes responsible for the blood disorder β-thalassaemia. About 71 of the embryos survived the 48-hour period needed for CRISPR to work. Fifty-four of the embryos could be genetically tested. Only 28 had the defective sequence removed, and an even tinier fraction of those ended up with the “pasted-in” healthy genetic sequence.

More worryingly, in some cases the CRISPR technique unintentionally caused mutations in other parts of the genome.

“If you want to do it in normal embryos, you need to be close to 100%,” Huang told Nature. “That’s why we stopped. We still think it’s too immature.” (Huang was not immediately available for comment when Quartz tried to reach him via email.)
Don’t edit human DNA

A group of prominent geneticists published a paper in Science last month—including Jennifer Doudna, a University of California Berkeley professor who last year collected a $3 million Breakthrough Prize, bankrolled by Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg and other tech billionaires, for her pioneering work on CRISPR—that urged scientists to refrain from testing the technique on human embryos.

The paper concluded that “the potential safety and efficacy issues arising from the use of this technology must be thoroughly investigated and understood before any attempts at human engineering are sanctioned, if ever, for clinical testing.”

Fifteen western European countries currently prohibit genetically modifying the germ line (which includes sperms, eggs, and embryos), and a major US health research committee has said (pdf, p.101) it “will not entertain proposals for germ-line alterations.”

The Science authors recommended that steps be taken to “trongly discourage, even in those countries with lax jurisdictions where it might be permitted, any attempts at germ-line genome modification for clinical application in humans.”
A slippery slope?

Proponents of genetic engineering tend to talk about the potential benefits, such as eradicating hereditary diseases like hemophilia or sickle-cell anemia not just in a single patient, but in all of his or her descendants as well. Opponents talk about the dangers of genetic fixes gone wrong, or at the extreme end of the spectrum, the dystopian prospect of wealthy parents ordering up genetically perfect “designer babies.”

“Even unambiguously therapeutic interventions could start us down a path towards non-therapeutic genetic enhancement,” a group of scientists wrote in Nature in March. They told their colleagues around the world: “Don’t edit the human germ line.”

But it may be too late. According to an anonymous researcher cited by Nature, at least four groups in China are working on genetically modifying human embryos. The MIT Technology Review reported last month that research groups at Harvard Medical School and at least one other center in Boston are looking into so-called human germ-line engineering, along with other scientists in China and the UK.

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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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While I, personally, see no more problem experimenting on non-viable human embryos than experimenting on, say, the HeLa cell line I do understand why people could find it troubling. I think genetic modification of any living organism should be done carefully and cautiously, even more so anything to do with humans.

That said, inevitability we're going to have a viable human embryo altered at some point and some time after that you're going to have genetically modified people. While that is not an inherently bad thing there is definitely potential for harm. We need to have the conversation(s).
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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I think the first step should be to deal with genetic diseases before we even consider stuff like improving beyond a "normal" human.
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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Well, the article is about how they tried creating a targeted anti-disease treatment. I can find no fault with that.

And frankly, as far as I know - finding and fixing a well known hereditary genetic defect will be viable long before you can even dream of designing babies. Even things as simple as eye color seem to be a side-effect of like 10 genes working together.
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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or at the extreme end of the spectrum, the dystopian prospect of wealthy parents ordering up genetically perfect “designer babies.”
I always hear this thrown around and I still don't get it. Why is that supposed to be a bad thing?
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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Ralin wrote:
or at the extreme end of the spectrum, the dystopian prospect of wealthy parents ordering up genetically perfect “designer babies.”
I always hear this thrown around and I still don't get it. Why is that supposed to be a bad thing?
Distributive justice. Imagine for a moment if, in addition to all the advantages wealth brings on its own, the wealthy can engineer children who are born with genetic advantages in intellect. Upward mobility dies.
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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There's also the issue that what a parent thinks would be a bonus might not be. What if a parent values prettiness in a daughter over intelligence? What if parents value intelligence so highly they're willing to trade off with some detrimental traits to get it? Is that fair to the created individual?
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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Would that not affect genetic diversity as well? An entire generation of kids would end up looking mostly the same because of cultural preference over what is considered to be good looking features.
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Ralin wrote:
or at the extreme end of the spectrum, the dystopian prospect of wealthy parents ordering up genetically perfect “designer babies.”
I always hear this thrown around and I still don't get it. Why is that supposed to be a bad thing?
Distributive justice. Imagine for a moment if, in addition to all the advantages wealth brings on its own, the wealthy can engineer children who are born with genetic advantages in intellect. Upward mobility dies.
I can see how that would concern people who care about those issues, yes. Though it's still pretty speculative. There doesn't seem to be that big of a difference in base intelligence now and honestly I'm not sure unusually high IQ is an advantage on the whole. No reason to think we'll find a way to change either of those things.
Broomstick wrote:There's also the issue that what a parent thinks would be a bonus might not be. What if a parent values prettiness in a daughter over intelligence? What if parents value intelligence so highly they're willing to trade off with some detrimental traits to get it? Is that fair to the created individual?
About as fair as the same parent having a kid with someone with bad inheritable health problems or deciding to straight up abort it. Given that's all legal I can't imagine what's fair to them really factors in here.
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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ray245 wrote:Would that not affect genetic diversity as well? An entire generation of kids would end up looking mostly the same because of cultural preference over what is considered to be good looking features.
Nah. Going from that being possible to that being readily available is a pretty big step. And going from readily available to everyone doing it, much less doing it the same way, is another one.
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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Ralin wrote:I can see how that would concern people who care about those issues, yes. Though it's still pretty speculative. There doesn't seem to be that big of a difference in base intelligence now and honestly I'm not sure unusually high IQ is an advantage on the whole. No reason to think we'll find a way to change either of those things.
No reason to think we won't.

I mean, the entire point of genetic engineering is going to be trying to find ways to modify the human body and brain. It's only a matter of time before some genetic engineer figures out a way to incorporate improvements to the genome that very humans possess. Or to combine these improvements in ways that give a person comprehensive advantages that interlock in ways that a normal human with randomly selected genes almost certainly won't have.

Say, a person who exudes pheromones that induce instinctive trust plus having extremely high intelligence plus having the ability to function on two hours of sleep a night. Such a person would be very difficult to compete with on fair terms in interpersonal or business relations.

The latter two of those are complicated but they exist in real humans, so they are presumably duplicable. The former may not exist in any living human but would be relatively easy to engineer, since we already know about chemicals that have this effect on people and putting pathways for chemical synthesis into someone's armpits isn't exactly the most complicated gene-tinkering imaginable.
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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I think worries about designer babies for the wealthy are overblown. Those improvements will be incremental, and they will still take two decades to grow up. By then it will be a moot point since there will be the 1% property owners, their AI workforce, and the permanently unemployed and immobile 99%. In other words I think AI and automation will improve so much faster than human genetic engineering that we meat bags will be irrelevant and obsolete long before biotech can cause any pressing social issues.
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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That society you just described would have a half-life best measured in hours, so I somehow doubt that will occur.

Though it would make for a good scifi story where the most advanced countries had a revolution every other day while the backwards nations erect trade barriers and pray that the nukes don't fly.
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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Darmalus wrote:I think worries about designer babies for the wealthy are overblown. Those improvements will be incremental, and they will still take two decades to grow up. By then it will be a moot point since there will be the 1% property owners, their AI workforce, and the permanently unemployed and immobile 99%. In other words I think AI and automation will improve so much faster than human genetic engineering that we meat bags will be irrelevant and obsolete long before biotech can cause any pressing social issues.
It's still worthwhile to pursue it. We might get blasted by another Carrington-event or some other disaster, in that case it would be nice if the mean IQ of the global population was centered around 200 thanks to genetic intervention.
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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We could get rid of rebelliousness in teenagers so they are less annoying to parents and behave better in school. Even better, get rid of rebelliousness in people in general and make them even more accepting of permanent surveillance. That would be awesome.
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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salm wrote:We could get rid of rebelliousness in teenagers so they are less annoying to parents and behave better in school. Even better, get rid of rebelliousness in people in general and make them even more accepting of permanent surveillance. That would be awesome.
To go further, we could lower the IQs of the working classes, to make them more accepting of their now biologically superior overlords.

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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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If you look at the people in a Brave New World 99% of them were happy with their jobs, drugs, and orgies maybe it would be like that?
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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Hell, even ignoring the eugenics of it all, the human genome is fucking complicated. We may have mapped the entire thing, but we still don't know what most of it really does and we especially don't know how tweaking a gene we know influences one trait may affect an entirely different trait. In fact, there are many cases where a gene is important to two or more things that don't seem related.

And this isn't getting into all the environmental factors that affect the "end product" known as a human being. Or, and here's the kicker with genetics: Gene expression in the first place. That one gets really entertaining.

Attempts to make designer humans could quite plausibly resort in a decidedly less than healthy individual. And, as has been pointed out in previous discussions on "getting rid" of genes that result in some rather horrible disorders, there's still spontaneous mutation. We wouldn't be making Perfect Humans. We'd be, in a best case scenario, making little dollies for rich idiots that want to customize their spawn to what they think are the most desirable traits. Making their daughters genetically disposed to big tits, tiny waste, and the intellectual abilities of a fruit fly. She's just gonna be some trophy wife anyway, why should she have to worry about superfluous bullshit? By the standards of the parent, that is.

And this is neglecting above mentioned abuses by the government. And considering the heinous shit that's historically been practiced by governments throughout history... Yes, even your own. Don't care which country you're in right now, your government has practiced morally reprehensible actions toward "undesirables" or those considered "lesser" or inferior.


Manipulation of genes isn't like fucking around in a video game, or even coding. Ask any coder that's worked on programs with many, many lines of code. Sometimes making one little change breaks things that you'd think have nothing to do with it. Genetics go beyond this. It's a horrific idea to go into this with any illusions that you can "make a better human." The absolute best we can realistically do with it is snip out genetic disorders, and they'd eventually come back in some form or another.

It's a dangerous road to travel.
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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Ralin wrote:I can see how that would concern people who care about those issues, yes. Though it's still pretty speculative. There doesn't seem to be that big of a difference in base intelligence now and honestly I'm not sure unusually high IQ is an advantage on the whole. No reason to think we'll find a way to change either of those things.
Those who are most successful generally have only a mildly elevated IQ, by the time you get to “genius” level success and happiness are going down from their peak. In fact, extremely high IQ is more likely to be associated with problems. I can see designer babies being manufactured with emphasis on smarts above all else and the result being people with mental problems, or who in their greater wisdom decide on different goals than the parents who ordered them up.
Ralin wrote:
Broomstick wrote:There's also the issue that what a parent thinks would be a bonus might not be. What if a parent values prettiness in a daughter over intelligence? What if parents value intelligence so highly they're willing to trade off with some detrimental traits to get it? Is that fair to the created individual?
About as fair as the same parent having a kid with someone with bad inheritable health problems or deciding to straight up abort it. Given that's all legal I can't imagine what's fair to them really factors in here.
The difference is that when someone inherits a health problem now it's just bad luck, no one engineered that problem. There's bad luck, and then there is being able to point to a human being and say "the disorder is that person's fault".

Which brings up another thing - currently, there are already problem with people being less than perfect and treated badly for it, in a society were no one is truly perfect and all of us have defects to one extent or another. How much worse will that be in a society were some people are literally defective products?
Simon_Jester wrote:Say, a person who exudes pheromones that induce instinctive trust plus having extremely high intelligence plus having the ability to function on two hours of sleep a night. Such a person would be very difficult to compete with on fair terms in interpersonal or business relations.
The issue with the first of those items is that humans are not nearly as responsive to odors as most other animals. Doesn't mean there's no effect, but it may not be a useful as it initially appears, especially in a society that insists on scrubbing away body odor constantly like the current US. Conversely, pheromones don't necessarily have to smell nice.

Again, extremely high intelligence isn't always beneficial to the owner. Or even society, if the extra smart person decides to turn that intelligence to anti-social goals.

Two hours of sleep a night? Yes, there are some people who get by on that – but short sleep hours are, again, often associated with other problems.

You could wind up with someone who's body odor offends many, who suffers from mental illness, and has chronic health problems due to their sleep disorder... and the people who ordered up this paragon will be going WTF?

As noted by Napolen the Clown, the human genome is complex and the parts interlock in ways we don't understand.
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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Again, THIS ^! (Both of it.)

You need to change like 10 genes to have a "good shot" on creating the eye-color you want. Wanting to create a potentially more intelligent person (apart from that it seems most intelligence seems to be aquired, instead of inherited) would be another shot at various genes.

The method this is done is by releasing a virus at the embryo that seeks certain DNA strands and then alters those. It's pretty much like a string replace on a text document. Now, take a huge text file, say "Brave new world" (which would equate to about one or two genes by character count, I'd presume), and then run a full replace of a certain word with another in order to change one sentence. Then check how much you've messed up the book. And each of these tinkerings to achieve your desired trait is doing the whole replace, again.

Now imagine how hard this becomes when you only use 4 letters in the whole document.
That's why they had such high failure rates in the test - the virus edidted DNA strands they didn't want to target, but fit the criteria.

You'd need to create a VERY specific search string to get it right, and even then, you can't bet on the virus not going rogue and doing something unexpected, like sponaneously mutating, or simply not being able to infect one cell, which now has a different genome than the rest of the embrio.

And once it is edited, it's just as hard to correct/reverse. Provided you even find that mistake, as you can only analyse DNA by destroying at least one cell and reading it out - so each test is just a statistical sample of DNA, once the alterations have occurred. There is no guarantee all cells of the embryo have received identical alterations.
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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Bear in mind that it's silly to speculate on the development of superhumans. The ability for wealthy people to produce children with corrections for inheritable diseases, and securing lower risk for developing other conditions, would by itself save a person a shitload of money (medical bills, insurance), time, and general happiness throughout their lives.

At which point we come to jobs. If you know you have been engineered so that you no longer are considered at risk of dying young or developing some disease, you can go to an employer and say, "Hey, guess what one of my skills is? Not getting sick and costing you money in the form of not being here to work."
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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Broomstick wrote: Those who are most successful generally have only a mildly elevated IQ, by the time you get to “genius” level success and happiness are going down from their peak. In fact, extremely high IQ is more likely to be associated with problems. I can see designer babies being manufactured with emphasis on smarts above all else and the result being people with mental problems, or who in their greater wisdom decide on different goals than the parents who ordered them up.


Exactly what I was thinking. Someone I follow on Twitter once commented that literally every single person she knows who was considered gifted or unusually intelligent as a kid has had serious mental or emotional health issues as adults. Some of them managed to parlay it into a good life but it was not a pleasant road getting there.

I'd never thought about it before, but goddamn does that explain a lot about my life. If being unusually intelligent was an advantage then being intelligent would not be unusual.
No reason to think we won't.
Sure there is. As others have said genetics is fucking complicated and it doesn't work like Lego blocks. Even if someone figures out the "super smart and hypnotically persuasive" genes and how to switch them in how likely is it that it won't have all sorts of horrible consequences?

Besides, wealth is more than enough of a superpower. Adding superhuman intellect and perfect health to the mix would bring seriously diminishing returns compared to "Daddy is rich and a Harvard alumni."
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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Broomstick wrote:The issue with the first of those items is that humans are not nearly as responsive to odors as most other animals. Doesn't mean there's no effect, but it may not be a useful as it initially appears, especially in a society that insists on scrubbing away body odor constantly like the current US. Conversely, pheromones don't necessarily have to smell nice.
Well, I hope it can't be made to work- but if there's any way to make it work, even if it only confers a relatively minor advantage, it would be easy to buy that advantage for your kids without otherwise damaging them.
Again, extremely high intelligence isn't always beneficial to the owner. Or even society, if the extra smart person decides to turn that intelligence to anti-social goals.
Danger to society is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Danger to the individual less so.
You could wind up with someone who's body odor offends many, who suffers from mental illness, and has chronic health problems due to their sleep disorder... and the people who ordered up this paragon will be going WTF?
Obviously there will have to be a wave of prototyping before we see designer babies; few sane people will want to gamble like this. That's actually a major human rights issue coming up in the next generation or two- because people WILL want to experiment with genetic modifications to humans, and WILL do so by inserting genes into babies to see what happens. If not in the US, then elsewhere.
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Re: Chinese genetically alter human embryo

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And again I say so what? If two people can have a kid despite knowing their genetics means it will almost certainly be blind why shouldn't a rich woman be free to pay to insert the blindness gene into her prospective kid? Fetuses aren't people and if the future people they might grow up into have the right to be protected from possible or likely genetic problems deliberately inserted by their billionaire parents then they should be entitled to that same protection from au natural genetic problems from any other parents. And if we're able to predict one reliably then we can clearly predict the other.

Hell, 1% billionaire parents would be in a much better position to care for a kid with genetic problems than most.
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