Some advice please

[Zwinmar]

There once was a man, if you can call him that, who served in the Marines. Now this man had a wife and kids, two girls and two boys. Then one day he slept with the babysitter producing another boy. He divorced the wife and took the kids disappearing into the small towns the family had inhabited since before the U.S. was formed. Though the judge ordered he must not remarry, remarry he did, to that babysitter.

From house to house he moved, evading the ex so that either she, nor the courts it would seem, could locate him. Then one day, how old the kids were not known, he took it upon himself a pedophile scheme in which he abused the girls with his oldest as his pupil.

Years latter that boy moves on and does the same to his own daughters with this coming to alleged light as he was caught with his own granddaughter. Apparently, though as with all skeletons, most of the bones remain unseen, his wife was privy to all this and rather than run she covered up while kicking him out, demanding his pay to keep silent.

Two generations violating three. Now having found this out through word of mouth the first grandson and nephew to the other knows not how to proceed as he is soon visiting that dismal, forsaken town. Part of him wishes he could unleash violence with extreme prejudice though all the stories are second hand, at best.

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I'm not sure about posting this here, reluctant even though advice and not confirmation bias is appreciated.

[Ziggy Stardust]

It's isn't at all clear to me what sort of advice you are looking for.

Is English not your first language? Because some of your sentence structures are bizarre to the point of being nonsensical.

[Elheru Aran]

From what I'm gathering, I'm guessing that Zwinmar has a relation, or relations, of some sort, who have a rather foul family history, and he's not sure how to handle it. But I do agree that it requires a bit of clarification...

[Purple]

My advice to that guy would be to avoid the visit if at all possible. If not possible avoid the subject and just try and not get into an argument at all. It does not matter if you believe the stories or not. A small town in the middle of nowhere where pedophile rapists are tolerated sounds like the kind of place that would also tolerate you going missing. Just have a pretend fun family time, smile, laugh and sleep with one eye open. And than get out of there quickly and newer ever think about this whole thing ever again in your life.

[Simon_Jester]

Or, better yet, simply do not go. The only reason to go to such a place is to rescue someone else from it.

[Ralin]

Or, better yet, simply do not go. The only reason to go to such a place is to rescue someone else from it.

Yeah, this. Don't go unless you don't have the option of not going. And even if you don't, whatever's driving you to go probably isn't as important as you think it is.

[Ralin]

A small town in the middle of nowhere where pedophile rapists are tolerated sounds like the kind of place that would also tolerate you going missing.

Realistically speaking he's probably more at risk of doing or saying something violent or being accused of doing so and getting himself in shit than of being murdered.

That's still a pretty good reason not to go.

[LaCroix]

Don't go. You will be hating yourself forever if you try to stay civil with such people for "appearance's sake".

The more pressing question is:

Why aren't you telling this story to the cops? Or Child Protection Service?

[Purple]

Why aren't you telling this story to the cops? Or Child Protection Service?

I can imagine two reasons. Firstly as the OP said it's all word of mouth rumors at best that he can't prove and that they probably could not prove either. And when that inevitably fails all he will have achieved is creating bad blood within the family. And nothing good ever comes of that.

[Zwinmar]

First off, I must apologize for the eclectic prose above. This was much harder to write than I first realized. As such, here is the situation as it stands now:

My fathers 60th birthday is in April but because my niece and nephew can only get out of school in March we are having it on the 21st. This will be the first time in a decade when all of us are together and I am officially a host for this little get together. It is supposed to be a surprise party for dad as he has no clue we are coming (one from Oregon and 2 of us from here).

My brothers and I have a very different outlook than those people for a couple of reasons: First, we grew up in Nashville, TN where as that county in Upstate NY has a population of roughly fifteen thousand last I checked. Second, three out of four of us joined the Marines where as I only know of two of the extended family has joined the Army, though I am most likely missing some as I do not know them all. My mother apparently knew something because she asked my brothers at one point if dad did anything to them, but as she died back in '02 I can not exactly ask her.

Now for a bit of background: The family moved there some time in the mid 1700's, I know at some point before 1788 as I have physically touched those particular tombstones. There is even a building downtown that has the family name on it, though like three quarters of the buildings it was empty the last I checked.

As for the family connections: This asshole is my dad's oldest brother and his wife is my mothers older sister, though my parents married first...as if that matters. Apparently we are related to pretty much everyone in the area though as I did not grow up there I have no idea what those connections are.

I found out about this at least third hand so I have no proof though I should be able to trust the sources: Assholes son to my brother to me.

The story goes that my cousins husband walked in and found the piece of shit with his wife's sisters kid. How the asshole walked out and not riding a gurney I will never know.

As for my grandfather he was apparently a womanizer and a pedophile rapist piece of shit. There is no telling how many children he had as my dad has heard rumors of several. Makes me wonder at who all he violated and how long this bullshit has been going on.

The thing I am most worried about by going there is my brother or I flying off the handle when we see this scum. As for police involvement, I would love to have them present, however, I don't see why they would as I live and Kansas and my information is really only rumor with no proof. Hell, apparently the women want to keep it quiet though, to me, it makes my mother's sister nothing more than a piece of shit who pimped out her own daughters and granddaughter to her husband...she kicked him out yet demands he takes care of her.

I know they did not want me to find out. They only really remember me from when I was a kid and had a volatile temper. Honestly, I feel closer to the guys in my unit than I ever will to anyone not my dad or brothers.

Sorry if I am rambling, I can't even really think about all this without becoming extremely pissed.

[Purple]

Reading this I am even more sure of my advice from before. Just pretend you know nothing and forget about the whole pedophilia thing. No sense making bad blood with your family, especially not when relations are already as strained as you describe them to be.

[Elheru Aran]

^ So your answer is to tell him to do nothing about a straight-up crime?

There's bad blood and then there's doing the right thing.

If I were Zwinmar, I'd start privately talking to people and trying to find out what anybody else knows. After that, perhaps an anonymous call to the necessary services before the family get-together. If pedophile guy and any accessories to the crime are arrested BEFORE the reunion, then perhaps it can be downplayed as "shame (name) can't be with us today, let's remember why we are here and celebrate (dad's) birthday". If people find out and get pissed off at him... well that's their problem. He's got to live with himself one way or another. They don't.

[Purple]

^ So your answer is to tell him to do nothing about a straight-up crime?

Yep. At least until such a point where he is a safe distance away.

There's bad blood and then there's doing the right thing.

Right or wrong ultimately this is a matter of self preservation first. That and the fact that not all of his family seem to be bad and he should act carefully lest he alienate everyone. Plus, I am not really sure if it would be the right thing to do. It's very complicated this case.

If I were Zwinmar, I'd start privately talking to people and trying to find out what anybody else knows. After that, perhaps an anonymous call to the necessary services before the family get-together. If pedophile guy and any accessories to the crime are arrested BEFORE the reunion, then perhaps it can be downplayed as "shame (name) can't be with us today, let's remember why we are here and celebrate (dad's) birthday". If people find out and get pissed off at him... well that's their problem. He's got to live with himself one way or another. They don't.

That sounds like a horrible way to get him self into a hell of a lot of trouble when the police inevitably fail to dig anything arrest worthy up on such short notice. And it sounds like a way to ruin the celebration and alienate the good part of his family along with the bad. Really, if he does want to make the whole thing known to the authorities he should do it in a way that is reasonably safe and does not reveal him as the source as well as at a later more convenient date. Be smart about this.

[Simon_Jester]

Ignoring random shit Purple says because he fantasizes about random ugly shit...

Basically, Zwinmar, it sounds like you can either host the party, or not host the party.

If you do host the party, it will either have your extended family present, or not have it present.

You are a much better judge than me of whether you or your brother can get the police involved between now and March 21. If you can't...

Well, it comes down to whether you host this surprise party...

...Or whether you say to the people involved whom you actually like "look, I can not deal with having a big party where Pedophile and his enablers are hanging out, I might lose control, you might lose control, let's go have our own event somewhere else.

And yeah, that might result in your dad no longer having a 'surprise' 60th birthday party. But in the grand scheme of things I would think that's small potatoes compared to you getting arrested for beating your great-uncle Pedo into a pulp at your dad's birthday party.

[Purple]

So your answer is to have him use his own judgment? That's no help at all. I at least have a productive idea that lets him have the surprise party and have everyone happy with the only person not happy being him. Sounds like a decent sacrifice tradeoff to me. And he can always get the police involved later if that is even a good idea at all.

[Elheru Aran]

Well, obviously we don't know the situation as well as he does, and it's not our skin in that game. So, yeah, it *is* pretty much up to him what to do. All we can do is offer advice. Yours fails because it's obviously not what he wants to do at all, he doesn't want to be around Uncle Pedo if he can help it. So either he doesn't go, or he makes alternative arrangements. What those alternatives might be, we have covered a number of possibilities. But yes, it's entirely up to his judgment. Your idea isn't 'productive' because it ignores what Uncle Pedo did in favour of having a good time with family... except he's not going to have a good time, and just waiting to get the police involved later is putting off justice for others in favour of self-service. It's not all about him.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. I've always found that the art to giving good advice is to embrace the priorities of the person taking the advice, while trying to bolster and support their judgment by helping them make the smart decision based on those priorities.

If I don't understand someone's priorities (say, because concepts like 'duty' are meaningless to me), I can't give them good advice.

Well, obviously we don't know the situation as well as he does, and it's not our skin in that game. So, yeah, it *is* pretty much up to him what to do. All we can do is offer advice. Yours fails because it's obviously not what he wants to do at all, he doesn't want to be around Uncle Pedo if he can help it.

Also because he immediately jumped to the most unrealistic and dumb possible scenario "A small town in the middle of nowhere where pedophile rapists are tolerated sounds like the kind of place that would also tolerate you going missing."

If that were the first thing I thought of in a situation like this, I wouldn't expect anyone to listen to me, either...

[Purple]

Well, obviously we don't know the situation as well as he does, and it's not our skin in that game. So, yeah, it *is* pretty much up to him what to do. All we can do is offer advice. Yours fails because it's obviously not what he wants to do at all, he doesn't want to be around Uncle Pedo if he can help it. So either he doesn't go, or he makes alternative arrangements. What those alternatives might be, we have covered a number of possibilities. But yes, it's entirely up to his judgment. Your idea isn't 'productive' because it ignores what Uncle Pedo did in favour of having a good time with family... except he's not going to have a good time, and just waiting to get the police involved later is putting off justice for others in favour of self-service. It's not all about him.

He is not supposed to have a good time with family. He is supposed to give them a good time all the while feeling horrible on the inside so as to keep and enhance family bonds and than if he really, really feels the need to sneak away and report these guys after that's done.

The #1 priority here should be giving his father a happy 60th birthday. This only happens once per life time and it would be a shame if he turned out to be an accomplice to the pedophile gang in ruining it. It's their fault but he would still feel shit over it for the rest of his days. The #2 priority should be not antagonizing anyone in the family. This hopefully needs no explanation. #3 should be personal emotional considerations. And any legal and morality issues should be a distant #4. Especially since such as in this case the morality is very messed up and convoluted.

[Ralin]

The #1 priority here should be giving his father a happy 60th birthday. This only happens once per life time and it would be a shame if he turned out to be an accomplice to the pedophile gang in ruining it. It's their fault but he would still feel shit over it for the rest of his days. The #2 priority should be not antagonizing anyone in the family. This hopefully needs no explanation. #3 should be personal emotional considerations. And any legal and morality issues should be a distant #4.

There is something wrong with you.

[Lord Revan]

there's always the way that he tells the pedo-gang (politely) that they're not welcome if done right said gang will get the message and stay away without any major arguments (hopefully), as for brining the cops well Zwinmar said that all he really has is third hand information which at this point he can't really verify and honestly best it would only cause an investigation that would bring a dark cloud to the celebrations and that's assuming the cops will do anything.

[LaCroix]

If it is third-hand information, Child protection service will still happily investigate on it if it sounds plausible, even on anonymous tips.

Anyway - my advice would be (since you are the host) to make it a smaller family gathering. Small enough that not inviting the guy in question can be rationalized as "we had to make a cut, somewhere". We did that at our wedding, in order to keep (most) of her uncles away (who had a habit of waging constant social warfare with each other). We did not invite anyone outside that core family, and added a few more relatives outside of that "because we do have a lot of contact with that particular person".

[Purple]

The #1 priority here should be giving his father a happy 60th birthday. This only happens once per life time and it would be a shame if he turned out to be an accomplice to the pedophile gang in ruining it. It's their fault but he would still feel shit over it for the rest of his days. The #2 priority should be not antagonizing anyone in the family. This hopefully needs no explanation. #3 should be personal emotional considerations. And any legal and morality issues should be a distant #4.

There is something wrong with you.

So there is something wrong about advising a man to make his own father happy on a special day even if it feels uncomfortable to him self? Well you know what? If there is something wrong with having that bare minimum of selflessness I do not want to be right.

[Lord Revan]

The correct timing is everything here though when it comes to siblings people are rarely rational, so if any legal actions should be taken before or after the party, unless Zwinmar is willing to server all friendly connections with his family permanently with pretty much no chance of mending those relationships.

I'd say if at all possible he should try to do so that those people don't get invited and are strongly but politely told that showing up univited is not welcomed either.

[Ziggy Stardust]

So there is something wrong about advising a man to make his own father happy on a special day even if it feels uncomfortable to him self? Well you know what? If there is something wrong with having that bare minimum of selflessness I do not want to be right.

For the love of god, Purple, can you stop it with the holier-than-thou bullshit? Not to mention the delicious irony of you pounding your chest about your own selflessness when in another thread recently you so proudly crowed about how you would never do anything to inconvenience yourself for the sake of others, but it's not a surprise that the self-aggrandizing pseudo-intellectual puppet show you like to put on for all of us is logically inconsistent.

"Selflessness" is the fucking OPPOSITE of what you are proposing, because there is nothing "selfless" about ignoring crimes just because you feel too uncomfortable to call the authorities or take action. That's not being selfless, that's being SELFISH, and covering it up under the guise of a birthday party to pretend that you aren't just taking the easiest possible way route, the one that requires you to do nothing.

The number one priority in this situation, believe it or not, isn't a fucking birthday party. It's holding guilty parties responsible for their crimes. If the latter isn't feasible for some reason, then he can worry about putting on the party. But there's nothing fucking special about a 60th birthday party that takes precedence over the fact that there are god-damned pedophiles involved.

[Zwinmar]

Talked to Child Services and they handed it off to the State Police to investigate, so out of my court now and hopfully my limited information will be enough.