Tennesee and pagans

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Tennesee and pagans

Post by Knife »

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,86605,00.html

Monday, May 12, 2003

MAYNARDVILLE, Tenn. — Every year, hundreds of Union County students take a field trip for the soul. Children are excused from class, loaded onto school buses with teachers and sent to a three-day Christian revival.



"I am going to ask you a question," an evangelical leader recently yelled to a sea of students ready for their field trip. "If you are glad to be here, say amen!"

With the ardor of a pep rally, the students shouted back: "AAAA-men!"

Not everyone is so enthusiastic.

Fourteen-year-old India Tracy said she was harassed and attacked by classmates for nearly three years after she declined to attend Baptist Pastor Gary Beeler's annual crusade because of her family's pagan religion.

Her family has filed a federal lawsuit against Union County schools, claiming the crusade, prayers over the loudspeaker, a Christmas nativity play, a Bible handout and other proselytizing activities in the rural school system have become so pervasive they are a threat to safety and religious liberty.

Union County officials say the system is neutral when it comes to religious activities, pointing out that the crusade is voluntary, teachers chaperone on their own time and school buses are operated by private contractors.

"We do not endorse, promote or prohibit it," said school spokesman Wayne Goforth.

District officials say the crusade, now in its sixth year, is like any other field trip, with parental permission required to let the children attend for two hours a day over three days. On the crusade's final day this year, April 30, more than 1,300 of the school system's 3,000 students attended.

"All local boards of education have the authority to allow students to voluntarily attend these types of events," said Christy Ballard, legal counsel to the Tennessee Department of Education.

But, she added, "it is very clear in the statute that they can't harass a student or coerce them to participate ... and, of course, they can't be school-sponsored."

Charles Haynes, a senior scholar at the Freedom Forum's First Amendment Center in Arlington, Va., said school officials and Christian leaders in Union County need a "crash course on the meaning of the First Amendment -- especially the part that separates church from state."

Beeler, 63, who lives and preaches in Union County, said he has been contacted by communities around the country wanting to set up similar crusades, and sees nothing wrong with children getting time off from school to attend them.

"The principals, the teachers, the bus drivers all have told us that they have less behavior problems after this crusade than they do before. So that tells us the positive effect," he said.

India said she was called "Satan worshipper" and accused of eating babies when it was revealed she was a pagan. She said she was taunted, found slurs painted over her locker and was injured when classmates assaulted her and slammed her head into the locker.

The lawsuit said school officials took no disciplinary action. In a May 2 legal response, school officials said they acted appropriately, denied the attacks happened, or said they were unaware of them.

Paganism is an ancient religious tradition that embraces kinship with nature, positive morality and the idea that there is both a female and male side of Deity.

After Christmas break in early 2002, India said three boys chased her down a hall at Horace Maynard Middle School, grabbed her by the neck and said, "You better change your religion or we'll change it for you."

She broke free and fled into the girls' bathroom. A teacher stopped the boys from following her, the lawsuit said.

"That was pretty much the last straw because she was terrified," said India's father, Greg Tracy.

The Tracys took India out of school on Feb. 26, 2002.

A straight-A student, she belonged to the leadership-service organization Beta Club, chess club, and band. She was the only girl on the middle school football team.

Now she takes Internet courses at home and hopes to transfer to a public school in Knoxville, 25 miles away.

"When was it too hard? I don't know," India said. "On a couple of occasions it was too hard and then it got easier and then it started getting bad again and I would come home bawling my eyes out."

:shock: Holly shit (no pun intended). I feel for this girl, and only hope that she can prosper in the new school. I did notice that the other students were not interested in discussing the issure, rather than use the good old 'you're christian or we will make you christian' philosaphy. :roll:

I am not a big one for lawsuits and especialy against schools/local goverments, but my god (again, no pun intended) I hope mom and dad sue the shit out of these fucktards.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

isnt it nice how a modern crusade is only hours away?
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

At least she was a pagan. If she was a Muslim then these self described 'Crusaders' probably would have raped and killed her just like in the good 'ol days.
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Post by Darth Gojira »

I find it rather appropiate that the fundie rally is called a "Crusade", which of course is synonymus with religiously inspired bloodshed.
And, Pilot: The early Christians also did what you described to the Roman "pagans". The Crusades also slaughtered Jews as well. Thousands were slain during the first Crusade. Forutunatly, the mobs that performed the massacres were hammered in turn by the good ol' Sejulks.
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Post by haas mark »

Wicked Pilot wrote:At least she was a pagan. If she was a Muslim then these self described 'Crusaders' probably would have raped and killed her just like in the good 'ol days.
There's no real difference. I should know. I so completely feel for her.
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Post by Montcalm »

I think they should start flooding school in those states with Islamic children,that will shut these fundies yapper. :wink:
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Post by Queen Tamar Garish »

You must remember these are teenagers. I am willing to bet religion is a convenient excuse to torment this girl that the tormenters believe will get them leniency. Teenagers very rarely give a rat's patootie about someone else's religion.

Especially guys.

However, I am thinking some teenage guys would care very much about the "only girl on the football team". A girl whose other activities consist of Beta Club (academics based), chess club and band. Not activities traditionally associated with the overly athletic.

It very much sounds like a girl making a point about sexism, many teenage boys resent their boy's clubs being violated. From a teenage mindset it seems to make more sense. Especially considering 1300 students went to this crusade but 1700 others did not go but this is the only case we are hearing about. I suppose there could be 1699 scared students but it seems somewhat unlikely.

Even as a Christian I find this decision to bus kids to a religious crusade questionable. They may feel they have covered their tracks by making sure the teachers and busdriver "are on their own time". If you examine the schools policies you will find that there are a certain amount of days set aside kids can use as "excused absences for religious reasons". It just seems like a lot of dancing around the constitutional separation laws, even to me. I certainly am not a a fan of this attitude. Threatening someones right to practice and have their own religious choices is threatening mine.

However, with this particular girl, I really believe at least where the treatment she is recieving from other students are concerned, there is more than the story being given.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Assholes.

Queen, ever heard the old axiom if it looks like shit and smells like shit...it might just be shit. I can hardly believe you're trying to excuse religious bullshit bullying by a bunch of assholes through the thing of "religion is probably just an excuse" that is a steaming pile of horseshit...
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Post by Queen Tamar Garish »

I know you despise religion. I don't, yet I still disagree with the notion of bussing students to a religious revival during school hours. I think the whole situation reeks of slippery indoctrination.

But, I also remember being a teenager. When you were in high school, did anyone's religion or lack of it even register on your radar? Most simply could care less.

I also take into consideration 1699 other students who did not attend the crusade and are not lodging any complaints. Even after someone has stepped forward.

I am not saying the schools choices are correct. I do not think so. But, I also think there may be other elements in play for this girl's being taunted than the attention getting religious explaination. A female band geek in an all male football team for instance. I only consider these motivations for the teenaged fuckwits who might use the schools religious ferver to get away with bullshit. I am in no way trying to get the school off, nor the bullys.

In fact, if anyone here is upset enough to want to help the girl here is a way you can:

Send donations to:

India Tracy Educational and Legal Trust Fund, Held Law Firm, 1522 Highland Avenue, Knoxville, TN 37916.

Or you could e-mail the school and tell them what you think:

Principal Jimmy Carter: carterj@ucps.org

Vice-Principal Dr. Janet Mobley: mobleyj@ucps.org

http://www.ucps.org/Hmms/

As an aside, I can't help but find their mascot of the Red Devils to be quite twisted and somewhat amusing.
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Post by NapoleonGH »

they are allowing kids to have an excused absense from school to attend religious indoctrination?

Im sorry but the separation of church and state thing means that the government and all its parts (including schools) cant take any action to facilitate religious practices, it must remain completely neutral towards religion and I would say allowing people to be removed from school and sent on a school field trip qualifies as the school sponsoring and facilitating religious indoctrination. The fact that this is called a crusade is the equivalent to sending kids to a "Neo-Nazi Book Burning and education as to the Final Solution and how to implement it, rally" and is wholly inexcusable.


What I dont get is why these morons think that religion needs to be in schools? I mean its not like these fundys aren't going to church on sundays, going to sunday school, reading the bible on their own time (assuming they are smart enough to read), and praying and the lot whenever they feel like. Is it really that big a deal to have 6 hours out of a day when people ARENT being tought religion but instead get to learn OTHER stuff?
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Queen, as it happens, yes, I have seen theist teenagers give athiest kids shit over it. Case in point, when I stopped attending the youth group run through Cavalry Church in here in Pittsburgh, I saw quite alot of kids outside of meetings. Some of them were cool about it, but some of them, particularly the ones that come in from Fox Chapel (ultra-rich conservative neighborhood on the edge of the city) would say some unbelievable shit about me, 19/20th of the time behind my back, even though not a month before they were perfectly willing to hang out before.

Also, I've actually seen pople call my girlfriend a heathen to her face and all that, and not just teenagers. People who treat athiests like garbage are not simply limited to teenagers looking for an excuse to be assholes. 30ish year old women usually have very little to prove to anyone.

I mean, geez, and that's in Pittsburgh, which is one of the most tolerant laid back places in the country. The above happened in freakin' Tennessee.
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Post by Raoul Duke, Jr. »

NapoleonGH wrote:they are allowing kids to have an excused absense from school to attend religious indoctrination?

Im sorry but the separation of church and state thing means that the government and all its parts (including schools) cant take any action to facilitate religious practices, it must remain completely neutral towards religion and I would say allowing people to be removed from school and sent on a school field trip qualifies as the school sponsoring and facilitating religious indoctrination. The fact that this is called a crusade is the equivalent to sending kids to a "Neo-Nazi Book Burning and education as to the Final Solution and how to implement it, rally" and is wholly inexcusable.


What I dont get is why these morons think that religion needs to be in schools? I mean its not like these fundys aren't going to church on sundays, going to sunday school, reading the bible on their own time (assuming they are smart enough to read), and praying and the lot whenever they feel like. Is it really that big a deal to have 6 hours out of a day when people ARENT being tought religion but instead get to learn OTHER stuff?
I think the church and state issue here can be answered by how much time these kids are given out of school to attend religious functions.

I remember having field trips when I was a kid -- it wasn't very often. If these kids get more time off than other school districts, and if they only get the time off to go to the revival (i.e. if it's a "go to church or stay in school" situation) then there may be remedies.

I don't know... Red's the law guy around here -- oh, man, does that kid know his ConLaw Kung-Fu!

Sorry, minor digression.
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Post by phongn »

Wait a moment, this is on school time? With government-funded school buses? WTF?
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Post by RedImperator »

This is a borderline case as far as the First Amendment goes. The school isn't spending any of its own money busing the kids there (someone else is paying to rent the buses), the teachers are volunteering, it's being conducted off school grounds, and there aren't any official rewards for going or sanctions for not going. The only issue is giving students time off to attend, and schools can and do regularly give students time off from school without penalty for religious reasons (Jews, for example, could take off Jewish holidays in my school without it counting towards their unexcused absences total). The difference here is that this isn't a religious holiday and letting thousands of students leave school to attend a religous camp comes dangerously close to endorsing it. My guess would be that should this reach the Supreme Court, this would be one of those 5-4 party line splits with the conservatives outvoting the liberals. Were I on the Court, I'd vote this constitutes a violation of the Establishment Clause, but I'm not on the Court (not very impressive kung-fu, I'm afraid--sorry Raoul).

On the subject of the girl's mistreatment, some of it I'm sure is, as her majesty put it, just teenagers finding an excuse to be dickheads and not get punished for it. But I doubt her being on the football team means anything--she's most likely a kicker, not a very high profile position and one where girls have been playing for quite a few years now.

I'm certain some of the people picking on her are picking on her because of her religion. There are more than a thousand other students who aren't complaining about harassment, but how many of them do you think are also admitted pagans in Tennessee? Not going to the crusade was the tip-off that she was different, which brought on the mistreatment--she's not being mistreated just because she's not going.
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Post by Raoul Duke, Jr. »

RedImperator wrote:(not very impressive kung-fu, I'm afraid--sorry Raoul).
The hell it's not. I saw your workout in the other thread with the 1892 SCOTUS decision analysis. To extend the metaphor, you may not be the Master yet -- but you're the best student we've got here. :D

I agree with you on the mistreatment origin, as well -- not going to this "crusade" may not be the entire reason for singling the girl out, but it was definitely the trigger event that got her noticed by enough of the wrong people to tilt the scales from hidden hostility to open targeting.
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Post by NapoleonGH »

never doubt that people will attack other people over religion, or lack thereof.

Ive had to defend, physically, muslim students in my school (we are actually not a very religious school, only a handful of fundie christians, but then again we are only 40% christians of those 80% or so are catholic, then something like 40% are jewish and the rest are either hindu, muslim, or atheists). I also have had to accept insults, threats, and the occasional attempt to start a fight with me over my overtly atheistic views.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Queen, do you know what it's like to be an atheist? Most teens don't give a shit about someone else's religion because they ASSUME he or she is probably a Christian, or something related to Christianity. But when you tell someone you are an atheist, a lot of people will look at you as if you just confessed to being a child molester.

You'll hear a lot of repeat questions: "so you don't believe in God? Really? No god at all? So what DO you believe in? Nothing? Really? Nothing at all?" It's as if they just can't believe atheists are real.

The American Boy Scouts are perfectly willing to eject members and leaders because they confess to being atheists; this is a matter of public record. How can you say that none of this takes place before adulthood?

PS. Did you engage in that little personality-impersonation farce that took place at trollkingdom?
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Post by UltraViolence83 »

Hey, it could be worse. She could have said with great pride that she was a Godless Communist.


Man I hate Communism. :kill: COMMUNISM
...This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old...ultraviolence.
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

Queen Tamar Garish wrote:Principal Jimmy Carter: carterj@ucps.org
THAT Jimmy Carter?
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

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Post by Queen Tamar Garish »

Darth Wong wrote:Queen, do you know what it's like to be an atheist? Most teens don't give a shit about someone else's religion because they ASSUME he or she is probably a Christian, or something related to Christianity. But when you tell someone you are an atheist, a lot of people will look at you as if you just confessed to being a child molester.
I said most, not all. Of course there are some who discriminate on the basis of religion, but I would not classify them as a majority. Perhaps it is a regional thing, where I live there was not much religious based crap going down. Except the self-proclaimed Satanist. He got laughed at a lot..especially since he drew Stars of David instead of pentagrams half of the time.
You'll hear a lot of repeat questions: "so you don't believe in God? Really? No god at all? So what DO you believe in? Nothing? Really? Nothing at all?" It's as if they just can't believe atheists are real.
Atheists do the same sorts of questioning and more often than not in a rude or condecending manner. "You believe in God? Really? That fairy tale a bunch of ignorant peasants wrote? Haven't you ever heard of science..the big bang..evolution? Really?...God?..isn't that stupid!" Just because atheists are in the minority does not mean all of them are enlightened and openminded about other people's beliefs and ideals. Many of them are as rabid as any fundamentalist Christian.
The American Boy Scouts are perfectly willing to eject members and leaders because they confess to being atheists; this is a matter of public record. How can you say that none of this takes place before adulthood?
I never said none of this ever takes place before adulthood. Just that it is fairly unusual and that in this case I wonder if other elements didn't contribute to this girl's torment.

As for Boyscouts, I know little about them. But as a private organization I believe they have the right to include and exclude anyone they see fit. Much as you do here.
PS. Did you engage in that little personality-impersonation farce that took place at trollkingdom?
I do not see how this is relevant to the discussion at hand. However, any part I played in the matter was settled between myself and Raoul. In fact, he encouraged me to come back here and participate, however, if I am not welcome, I will cease posting here.
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Post by Raoul Duke, Jr. »

Okay, this is totally off-topic, but it's already come up in-thread, so I'm going to take a moment to address it.

Yes, Tamar was TrollKingdom "Visionrazor."

However.

Tamar has confessed and openly apologized at TrollKingdom. If she feels it would be helpful to do so here, I would advise her to do so in the "Now They've Gone Too Far (Again)" thread. I'm not going to ask her to do that, however. So long as she doesn't have a relapse, Tamar and I have our little truce.

And like I told her, I think that if she can get used to the differences between debate here and what passes for debate at TrekBBS, she could very well become a valuable voice on this board.

Thus endeth the sermon. :D
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Post by UltraViolence83 »

Queen Tamar Garish wrote:I said most, not all. Of course there are some who discriminate on the basis of religion, but I would not classify them as a majority. Perhaps it is a regional thing, where I live there was not much religious based crap going down. Except the self-proclaimed Satanist. He got laughed at a lot..especially since he drew Stars of David instead of pentagrams half of the time.
Lol I used to do that same thing! I was trying to draw a hexagram. Coincidentally the hexagram is more powerful than the pentagram, so maybe I was on the right track with my naivety.
Atheists do the same sorts of questioning and more often than not in a rude or condecending manner. "You believe in God? Really? That fairy tale a bunch of ignorant peasants wrote? Haven't you ever heard of science..the big bang..evolution? Really?...God?..isn't that stupid!" Just because atheists are in the minority does not mean all of them are enlightened and openminded about other people's beliefs and ideals. Many of them are as rabid as any fundamentalist Christian.
:shock: You DO realize what you just typed, right? You are going to get FLAMED for that in due time. *runs away crying in fear of the atomic blasts*
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Post by Raoul Duke, Jr. »

UltraViolence wrote: :shock: You DO realize what you just typed, right? You are going to get FLAMED for that in due time. *runs away crying in fear of the atomic blasts*
I would be ready with the Nomex, Tamar. Just take it all in stride, try not to lose your cool, and learn what you can from it. Flames here are vicious, but they do serve a purpose if you know how to harness growth from them.
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Post by Queen Tamar Garish »

Sorry, but it's true.

An atheist isn't automatically off the hook for rudeness just because they are staunch in their beliefs..or unbeliefs as the case may be.

An obnoxious atheist is just as annoying as an obnoxious Christian.
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