How would you refute this?

[Straha]

BIRDS FROM LIZARDS?

"In your biology textbooks published by Silver-Burdette and
approved by the county school board,we are told that birds evolved
from lizards,despite absolutely no fossil evidence for such a
development whatsoever. Now let's see what evolution is asking a
lizard to do to become a bird."

"First is the easy and obvious. We must ask the lizard to change
its perfectly-adequate scales into feathers. Then,we must ask it to
change its jaws and teeth into a beak. Easy so far,right?"

"Now it gets a little tougher. Look at a picture of any lizard or
alligator as it stands on all four feet. Then get down on all four
yourself with that picture handy. Notice at your elbows and knees.
See that they bend in the same direction as the lizard's limbs do.
Now,look at some pictures of birds standing or walking. Notice that
almost all birds' "knees" bend the OPPOSITE DIRECTION of those of
the lizards'! And examine a species of bird that can fly. Notice
that its "elbows" bend the OPPOSITE DIRECTION of ours,or of the
lizards', enabling the bird to fold its wings over its back
comfortably. In other words,evolution is asking the lizard to
reverse the axes of the bends of the joints of its limbs! Imagine
how a "missing link" or "birdzard" may have gotten around,unable to
move its limbs in any precise direction, its scales having become
featherettes,its jaws being half a beak."

"Now it really gets tough for the lizard-evolution now asks it to
completely alter its body chemistry, changing it from 'cold-blooded'
to 'warm-blooded'. Now how evolution expects the lizard to do this
without killing itself is beyond the knowledge of modern science.
The blood and body fluids of each type of chemistry contains
substances that would quickly kill any animal of opposite chemistry
type. I eagerly await the explanation from the authors of your
textbook as to how the lizard accomplished this amazing feat."

"And one closing thought-"Cold blooded" is NOT inferior to "Warm
blooded" as the evolutionist would have us believe. The cold-blooded
animal need eat only ONE-TENTH the same amount of food as does a
warm-blooded animal of the same weight and activity level. Most of
the warm-blooded animal's food is used to maintain its body
temperature. A cold-blooded animal has a huge advantage in an
environment where food is scarce and the climate doesn't vary much."

In summary,students,as a scientist since the 1930s,I must totally
disagree with the view of the evolutionist as presented in your
textbooks,that birds evolved from lizards,or that any one species
evolved from any other species. Each species of plant or animal is
too unique to have evolved from something else."

This article was not copyrighted,and in fact was presented to the
school paper at the request of a journalism student. If you believe
it'll help a proponent of creation somewhere,feel free to use it.

I did a while ago, and was wondering if you would follow the same path as me.

[Joe]

*groan*

This entire article is something of a strawman. No one is suggesting that one day lizards started crapping out bird eggs. Evolution is a very, very long process. It takes millions upon millions of years and countless mutations for a bird to evolve from a lizard.

And there is fossil evidence to suggest the lizard to bird evolution(Archaeopteryx, anyone?).

And being warm-blooded certainly IS superior in the environment that produced mammals.

[Superman]

More than archaeopteryx now, we have a few more transitional species. I will have to look them up.

Strawman again. Wow, creationists using straw mans... Who would have thought...

[Darth Yoshi]

NITPICK: Birds evolved from dinosaurs, which are not lizards.

And it's really not so farfetched. As for scale=>feather, just remember that birds have scales on the feet. And your average carnivorous dinosaur is quite bird-like, wouldn't you say? That takes care of the whole limbs pointing the wrong way argument. NTM that the part of the bird's wing that allows it to fold nicely is the fucking wrist, not the elbow. Or hasn't he ever noticed that there are TWO major joints in the wing?

[Drooling Iguana]

Well, he got one part right:

"And one closing thought-"Cold blooded" is NOT inferior to "Warm
blooded" as the evolutionist would have us believe. The cold-blooded
animal need eat only ONE-TENTH the same amount of food as does a
warm-blooded animal of the same weight and activity level. Most of
the warm-blooded animal's food is used to maintain its body
temperature. A cold-blooded animal has a huge advantage in an
environment where food is scarce and the climate doesn't vary much."

It's a common miscomception that evolution is a ladder with "inferior" species at one end and "superior" (read: human-like) species at the other, when in reality evolution simply serves to adapt a species for a particular environment and ecological niche. The most primitive bacteria is just as evolved as a human. In fact, a more primitive a species could be considered more successful it's been in evolutionary terms because of its ability to stand the test of time.

Regarding the rest of the article, I don't know all that much about biology but it was always my understanding that, while overall evolution is gradual, individual mutations are more or less spontanious. A creature wouldn't go from having knees that bend in one direction to knees that don't bend at all to knees that bend in the opposite direction. Instead there would be one generation where they bend one way, and the knees in their offspring would be reversed. If the offspring is able to mate, the mutation is passed on.

Unless of course that its ankle became its mid-leg joint which, while looking at my dog's hind legs, seems likely.

As for the rest of the changes, the author seems to deliberately give hypotherical "birdzard" species that he knows will look rediculous, instead of thinking of what kinds of actual possible intermediate species that could have existed between prehistoric reptiles and modern birds.

[Darth Wong]

The ancient pteradactyl was a flying dinosaur, basically a bird ALREADY. To classify dinosaur/bird evolution as an impossibility is a sick joke. You see, his problem is as follows: modern lizards and birds both evolved from similar roots. So they conclude that modern birds evolved from modern lizards, and try to disprove this strawman. See the problem?

[Admiral Johnason]

What is with the Strawman naem?

Anyway, dinosaurs may not even be lizards anymore. Some scientist currently believe that they were warm blooded and therefore no longer fit the profile of lizards. This could help to prove that dinos were the missing link between birds and lizards. Well, only the really small ones.

[Darth Yoshi]

Strawman. Look it up. It should be on the main site somewhere, and basically it is distorting you opponent's argument into something ridiculous, and attacking that instead of the actual argument.

Example:
YOU: The sky isn't always blue.
ME: What are you saying? The sky isn't green!

Of course, it's not always that blatant.

[kojikun]

birds knees and elbows dont bend in the opposit direction as ours, they just have very long fingers and toes and short upper legs and arms. This is called digitigrade, and is commonly found in sprinting animals and werewolves.

[Admiral Johnason]

Strawman. Look it up. It should be on the main site somewhere, and basically it is distorting you opponent's argument into something ridiculous, and attacking that instead of the actual argument.

Example:
YOU: The sky isn't always blue.
ME: What are you saying? The sky isn't green!

Of course, it's not always that blatant.

Thanks for the tip.

[lgot]

I think anyone trying to argue against him is wrong. Birds really did not envolved from lizards, there is really no fossile registers, it is very hard really.
After agreeing just comment that Dinossaurs are not lizards.
There is fossiles to do a register of that, even some with more primitive feathers (A month ago here in this same forum there was topic : T.REX with feathers - or something similar - that covers it pretty much ), remember that turtles are reptiles with beak, dinos are supposed to be warm blooded, and they do have a bone structure similar to birdies, at the point of having mistakes of indetinfication with non-feathered species.

[Straha]

This was my reply, I probably fucked up quite a bit from what you guys suggested, but I could use any criticism:

>>>> "In your biology textbooks published by Silver-Burdette and
approved by the county school board,we are told that birds evolved
from lizards,despite absolutely no fossil evidence for such a
development whatsoever. Now let's see what evolution is asking a
lizard to do to become a bird."<<<<
There is much fossil proof that birds evovled from dinosaurs (there is some debate over wether or not dinos are true reptiles though) archeoptrex, Confuciusornis, Rahonavis, Dimetrodon and Moschops just to name a few.

>>>>"First is the easy and obvious. We must ask the lizard to change
its perfectly-adequate scales into feathers. Then,we must ask it to
change its jaws and teeth into a beak. Easy so far,right?"<<<<

Perfectly adequete? Sure in a enviroment with a completeley warm(i.e. 60+ year round) climate. But in cooler climayes feathers help keep you warm when it's cold, keep you cool when it's warm, and are much lighter increasing running spped. Most lizards jaws are just like beaks, the steps aren't that hard to see. 1 jaw becomes completely bone, 2 teeth are no longer needed because bone does their work, 3 skin on outside goes away because bone can protect itself very very well. Yes, very easy.

>>>"Now it gets a little tougher. Look at a picture of any lizard or alligator as it stands on all four feet. Then get down on all four
yourself with that picture handy. Notice at your elbows and knees.
See that they bend in the same direction as the lizard's limbs do.
Now,look at some pictures of birds standing or walking. Notice that
almost all birds' "knees" bend the OPPOSITE DIRECTION of those of
the lizards'! And examine a species of bird that can fly. Notice
that its "elbows" bend the OPPOSITE DIRECTION of ours,or of the
lizards', enabling the bird to fold its wings over its back
comfortably. In other words,evolution is asking the lizard to
reverse the axes of the bends of the joints of its limbs! Imagine
how a "missing link" or "birdzard" may have gotten around,unable to
move its limbs in any precise direction, its scales having become
featherettes,its jaws being half a beak."<<<<

here look at a picture of T. Rex:
http://www.senckenberg.uni-frankfurt.de/dino/dino01.htm
Or this of Velocioraptors:
http://www.schs.esu7.org/pages/students ... aptor.html

Not very different at all. Secondly the first birds, going back to Archeoptrex again had forward facing wings aswell, only later did birds wings make the gradual change to backwards facing.

>>>>"Now it really gets tough for the lizard-evolution now asks it to
completely alter its body chemistry, changing it from 'cold-blooded'
to 'warm-blooded'. Now how evolution expects the lizard to do this
without killing itself is beyond the knowledge of modern science.<<<<

Again birds evolved from dinosaurs which are currentley thought to be warm blooded, not cold-blooded.

http://www.sciencenet.org.uk/database/A ... 0044d.html

The blood and body fluids of each type of chemistry contains
substances that would quickly kill any animal of opposite chemistry
type. I eagerly await the explanation from the authors of your
textbook as to how the lizard accomplished this amazing feat."<<<<

>>>>"And one closing thought-"Cold blooded" is NOT inferior to "Warm
blooded" as the evolutionist would have us believe. The cold-blooded
animal need eat only ONE-TENTH the same amount of food as does a
warm-blooded animal of the same weight and activity level. Most of
the warm-blooded animal's food is used to maintain its body
temperature. A cold-blooded animal has a huge advantage in an
environment where food is scarce and the climate doesn't vary much."

False dilemma, Dinos, which birdds come from, were warm blooded. Secondly what if food isn't that scarce, the climate varies, and some of your predatorss are warm blooded. If thats so while you are just getting ready to move your already in the predator's stomach.

[Darth Yoshi]

*snip*

You could point out the endotherms are at the top of the food chain pretty much everywhere except Komodo. And that's only because the sea formed a buffer preventing endotherms from reaching.

[lgot]

well, crocodilles, sharks, constrictors snakes they all are in the top of that chain as well.
But to the point, is not much useful, the predator must be adapted to hunt down his prey, not today's preys...

[Peregrin Toker]

The ancient pteradactyl was a flying dinosaur, basically a bird ALREADY.

I thought the pterodactyl wasn't a dinosaur technically, although it probably was related.

You see, his problem is as follows: modern lizards and birds both evolved from similar roots. So they conclude that modern birds evolved from modern lizards, and try to disprove this strawman. See the problem?

It's the equivalent of claiming that dolphins descended from sheep, just because sheep and dolphins have a common ancestor. Or, for that matter, saying the same about humans and brine shrimp.

[InnerBrat]

BIRDS FROM LIZARDS?

"In your biology textbooks published by Silver-Burdette and
approved by the county school board,we are told that birds evolved
from lizards,despite absolutely no fossil evidence for such a
development whatsoever. Now let's see what evolution is asking a
lizard to do to become a bird."

Actaully, birds almost certainly DID not evolve from lizards. They evolved from dinosaurs - which are far removed from the squamata

"First is the easy and obvious. We must ask the lizard to change
its perfectly-adequate scales into feathers. Then,we must ask it to
change its jaws and teeth into a beak. Easy so far,right?"

"Now it gets a little tougher. Look at a picture of any lizard or
alligator as it stands on all four feet. Then get down on all four
yourself with that picture handy. Notice at your elbows and knees.
See that they bend in the same direction as the lizard's limbs do.
Now,look at some pictures of birds standing or walking. Notice that
almost all birds' "knees" bend the OPPOSITE DIRECTION of those of
the lizards'! And examine a species of bird that can fly. Notice
that its "elbows" bend the OPPOSITE DIRECTION of ours,or of the
lizards', enabling the bird to fold its wings over its back
comfortably. In other words,evolution is asking the lizard to
reverse the axes of the bends of the joints of its limbs! Imagine
how a "missing link" or "birdzard" may have gotten around,unable to
move its limbs in any precise direction, its scales having become
featherettes,its jaws being half a beak."

First of - the dinosaurs that evolved into birds were not quadripedal, they were bipedal, and had uprigth legs. Take a look at the Velociraptor is Jurassic Park if you don't believe me.
Secondly, the 'knee' joint you are feferring to is not actauly7 a knee, but an ankle. It is no the femur/tibia joint thaqt we call our knee, but the tiba/tarsus joint that in human occurs flat on the floor. Stand on tiptoe and have a look at your ankle. Notice how it looks like a horses, knee, a dogs knee, or a birds knee? That's because it's homologous to their knees.

"Now it really gets tough for the lizard-evolution now asks it to
completely alter its body chemistry, changing it from 'cold-blooded'
to 'warm-blooded'. Now how evolution expects the lizard to do this
without killing itself is beyond the knowledge of modern science.
The blood and body fluids of each type of chemistry contains
substances that would quickly kill any animal of opposite chemistry
type. I eagerly await the explanation from the authors of your
textbook as to how the lizard accomplished this amazing feat."

Archaeopteryx was exothermic - as shown by seasonal growth rings in its bones., and yet is a bird by definition of the group Aves. the exact progress beteen exothemy and endothermy is not known, as metabolism is not fossilised, but not all birds have been endothermic, which is a development that occured after birds originated.

"And one closing thought-"Cold blooded" is NOT inferior to "Warm
blooded" as the evolutionist would have us believe. The cold-blooded
animal need eat only ONE-TENTH the same amount of food as does a
warm-blooded animal of the same weight and activity level. Most of
the warm-blooded animal's food is used to maintain its body
temperature. A cold-blooded animal has a huge advantage in an
environment where food is scarce and the climate doesn't vary much."

Yeah, so?

[InnerBrat]

Pterodactyls wree not dinosaurs - not that it matters, really, alhtough they were cleosly related.
A major hint is that dinosaurs were fully terrestrail unitl the origin of Aves. Pterodactyls weer not dinosaurs,a nd neither were plesiosaurs or icthyosaurs.