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Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-05-25 05:48pm

In light of the recent appeals court ruling in California, with respect
to the Pledge of Allegiance, the following recollection from Senator John
McCain is very appropriate.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Senator John McCain
>From a speech made by Capt. John S. McCain, US, (Ret) who represents Arizona
in the U.S. Senate:
As you may know, I spent five and one half years as a prisoner of war during
the Vietnam War.
In the early years of our imprisonment, the NVA kept us in solitary
confinement or two or
three to a cell. In 1971 the NVA moved us from these conditions
of isolation into large rooms with as many as 30 to 40 men to a room.
This was, as you can imagine, a wonderful change and was a direct
result of the efforts of millions of Americans on behalf of a few
hundred POWs 10,000 miles from home.
One of the men who moved into my room was a young man named
Mike Christian. Mike came from a small town near Selma, Alabama.
He didn't wear a pair of shoes until he was 13 years old. At 17, he
enlisted in the US Navy. He later earned a commission by going to
Officer Training School. Then he became a Naval Flight Officer and
was shot down and captured in 1967. Mike had a keen and deep
appreciation of the opportunities this country and our military
provide for people who want to work and want to succeed.
As part of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some
prisoners to receive packages from home. In some of these packages
were handkerchiefs, scarves and other items of clothing. Mike got
himself a bamboo needle. Over a period of a couple of months, he
created an American flag and sewed on the inside of his shirt.
Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike's
shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance. I know
the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important part of our
day now, but I can assure you that in that stark cell it was indeed
the most important and meaningful event.
One day the Vietnamese searched our cell, as they did periodically,
and discovered Mike's shirt with the flag sewn inside, and removed it.
That evening they returned, opened the door of the cell, and for the
benefit of all of us, beat Mike Christian severely for the next couple
of hours. Then, they opened the door of the cell and threw him in.
We cleaned him up as well as we could.
The cell in which we lived had a concrete slab in the middle on which
we slept. Four naked light bulbs hung in each corner of the room. As
I said, we tried to clean up Mike as well as we could. After the
excitement died down, I looked in the corner of the room, and sitting
there beneath that dim light bulb with a piece of red cloth, another
shirt and his bamboo needle, was my friend, Mike Christian. He was
sitting there with his eyes almost shut from the beating he had
received, making another American flag.
He was not making the flag because it made Mike Christian feel better.
He was making that flag because he knew how important it was to us
to be able to Pledge our allegiance to our flag and country.
So the next time you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you must never
forget the sacrifice and courage that thousands of Americans have
made to build our nation and promote freedom around the world.
You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to
the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all."
PASS THIS ON... and on... and on!!!!!!

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-05-25 05:51pm

My social studies teacher handed that out in class the other day.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-05-25 05:56pm

it does certainly spread.

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-05-25 08:40pm

well thge better answer is that THAT ISNT THE PLEDGE. that is the religion filled destruction of the pledge. The proper pledge doesnt have the under god bullshit, which is what was ruled unconstitutional. Furhtermore, the flag pledge as a whole when forced on students (you dont have to say it, but you are forced to stand) constitutes a definite sign of nationalism.

Saurencaerthai · Post by **Saurencaerthai** » 2003-05-25 09:26pm

Whenever I recite the pedge, I recite it as it was written: "One nation, under my flag." I'm not going to recite that religious Macarthy-ist bullshit.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-05-25 09:27pm

NapoleonGH wrote:well thge better answer is that THAT ISNT THE PLEDGE. that is the religion filled destruction of the pledge. The proper pledge doesnt have the under god bullshit, which is what was ruled unconstitutional. Furhtermore, the flag pledge as a whole when forced on students (you dont have to say it, but you are forced to stand) constitutes a definite sign of nationalism.

actually., in schools Ive been in, I dont have to stand up.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-05-25 09:41pm

Few people in my homeroom stand for the pledge, and my teacher doesn't bother to enforce it.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-05-25 10:32pm

Let's get "In God We Trust" off our fucking coins too! I'm tired of that shit! The Cold War is over, we don't have to make ourselves seem holier than the godless commies in the USSR anymore.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-05-25 11:13pm

Many POWs probably receited the origional pledge during earlier wars such as WWII. Did the absence of "under God" cause them to lose faith in their country?

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-05-26 05:16am

Saurencaerthai wrote:Whenever I recite the pedge, I recite it as it was written: "One nation, under my flag." I'm not going to recite that religious Macarthy-ist bullshit.

What about "One Nation Under One Flag?"

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-05-26 07:52am

I'm sorry.. but this is one thing we discussed in my US Government class in high school.. and I just disagree with the Pledge in general. Pledge of Allegiance ~ the definition is pledging one's loyalty to a country. What if someone doesn't agree with this country, but has no way to get out of it? I stopped saying the Plesge in high school because of that very reason. It's the onemost form of forced "patriotism" on our youth these days, and frankly, I think it should be taken out of the school systems.

~ver

Saurencaerthai · Post by **Saurencaerthai** » 2003-05-26 10:53am

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Saurencaerthai wrote:Whenever I recite the pedge, I recite it as it was written: "One nation, under my flag." I'm not going to recite that religious Macarthy-ist bullshit.
What about "One Nation Under One Flag?"

Was that the exact original wording? For all I know, I might have been getting it wrong. For some reason, though, I remember that it read "one nation under my flag."

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-05-26 11:55am

verilon wrote:I'm sorry.. but this is one thing we discussed in my US Government class in high school.. and I just disagree with the Pledge in general. Pledge of Allegiance ~ the definition is pledging one's loyalty to a country. What if someone doesn't agree with this country, but has no way to get out of it? I stopped saying the Plesge in high school because of that very reason. It's the onemost form of forced "patriotism" on our youth these days, and frankly, I think it should be taken out of the school systems.

~ver

if he doesnt support the country, he doesnt have to say the pledge - at least, in the schools Ive been in.

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-05-26 01:44pm

Talen, legally they can force you to stand and show respect for it while it is being recieted even though you dont have to say it.

This is still too far in my mind. I hate any form of forced nationalism (Which is what this is, aint no patriotism), and whenver we have to get up for the pledge, my general response is to stand, then spit at the end. I have no problem with the pledge (except the religious bullshit), but i have a problem with forced nationalism, so i spit at forced nationalism.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-05-26 05:53pm

NapoleonGH wrote:Talen, legally they can force you to stand and show respect for it while it is being recieted even though you dont have to say it.

This is still too far in my mind. I hate any form of forced nationalism (Which is what this is, aint no patriotism), and whenver we have to get up for the pledge, my general response is to stand, then spit at the end. I have no problem with the pledge (except the religious bullshit), but i have a problem with forced nationalism, so i spit at forced nationalism.

last I checked, its not forced. no school and no class Ive been in (some thirty in which pledges are recited) have I been told to stand up. it is my vague rememberence that you cant be forced to do it.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-05-26 06:16pm

I never had an issue with saying the Pledge of Allegience, but I sometimes wonder that it is required only in grade school, and never afterward (at least in my experience). As a member of the US military, I must come to attention and salute when the National Anthem is played, but I don't think I've recited the Pledge of Allegience since the 12th Grade...

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-05-26 06:39pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:]

last I checked, its not forced. no school and no class Ive been in (some thirty in which pledges are recited) have I been told to stand up. it is my vague rememberence that you cant be forced to do it.

The way it works according to my constitutional law class last year is that they cannot make you say it, but they can make you stand up.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-05-26 06:46pm

not in my expierence. -shrugs-

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-05-26 07:13pm

just because they CAN make you stand, doesnt mean that they do

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-05-26 07:30pm

In elementry school they told us to stand, because we were little. After that, you could sit if you wanted.

For the record, "Under God" was added for the Cold War McCarthyism, but "In God We Trust" goes back to the founding fathers and the first Continental Dollars.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-05-26 07:46pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:In elementry school they told us to stand, because we were little. After that, you could sit if you wanted.

For the record, "Under God" was added for the Cold War McCarthyism, but "In God We Trust" goes back to the founding fathers and the first Continental Dollars.

Actually, "In God we Trust" was made mandatory to be put on all currency around the same time as "Under God" was added to the pledge. It was just proposed by Rev. Watkinson and slowly added to coins in the late 19th-eatly 20th century. See http://www.coinlibrary.com/info/ingodwetrust.html for more info.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-05-26 08:06pm

My bad, I thought it was something Ben Franklin left us, like the post office.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-05-26 08:32pm

Franklin? Heh, he was far from a religious man...

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-05-26 08:45pm

Wow, I see no possible way of this conversation going badly...

but, he was at least a Deist, so IGWT wouldn't be hard for him to swallow.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-05-26 08:51pm

Saurencaerthai wrote:Was that the exact original wording? For all I know, I might have been getting it wrong. For some reason, though, I remember that it read "one nation under my flag."

It was originally "... one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." That's the way it should be. We are one nation under nothing but the people.