Chat Transcript with a Jewish Athiest

[Coyote]

Others have posted things like this before and the name of the person I am chatting with does not appear. I think it may be of interest to the board...

An edited transcript. This is between myself and a young woman I met on the net. We ocassionally email and chat, she's in Seattle and I'm in Boise so the thought of meeting sometime hangs over us. This is one of the first times we really talked about issues as opposed to little bits of small talk.

A lot of BS and grabass has been edited out, and a bit of personal information (on my part). The argument remains coherent though, the basics of the discussion are not altered. It starts with a request to see a photo of me and provides the jumping off point for the downward spiral.


Coyote: My pic?
Coyote: Yes.
Coyote: It is a little over a year old, but I have not changed much. Hold on a moment....
geojunkee: holding
Coyote: Another on, a little older, but more clear.
Coyote: Taken in Beit-Shean archaeological dig
geojunkee: How much time have you spent in Israel?
Coyote: 4 years: Aug 1998 until June 2002
Coyote: Fun time...
geojunkee: Holy crap.
geojunkee: Are you very religious?
geojunkee: Hey, if we had kids they'd have dark hair and blue eyes.
Coyote: That's a nice effect, the dark with blue. Religious? Uhh... define "very" religious. I don't think so, but to others I am.
geojunkee: Hmmmm, well maybe we could be friends and not have kids.
geojunkee: Is that cool?
Coyote: well, what would you like to know?
geojunkee: about what?
Coyote: To most raving secular Israelis I fit in well. To totally assimilated pork chop Jews in the States I am more strict. To a black-wearing Orthodox guy I am horribly off the path of righteousness.
geojunkee: pork chop Jews?
geojunkee: Well you're very cute for a religious guy.
Coyote: Yeah, absolutely no thoght to eating pork, bacon, etc. I won't, but I don't care if others do or if a restauarnt serves tham, I don't eat it, myself.
Coyote: I "sort of" adhere to the dietary regs, for example, but I use electricity on the weekends, etc, do all that other bad stuff.
Coyote: Heheh.

geojunkee: Whoa.
geojunkee: That's nutty. Are you sane?
geojunkee: At all?
Coyote: Last time I checked... lesse.... yeh, all the marbles still there.
geojunkee: Well, shit. We're just WAY wrong for each other on paper.
Coyote: Heeheehee! Why do you say, 'cause of that?

geojunkee: Well, I'm an atheist. Straight up. Culturally, jewish and I'll raise my kids with it, but I'll also encourage them to make their own decisions.
Coyote: "Some of my best friends are...." Heheh.
geojunkee: what? Atheist?
Coyote: Yeah. Kids have to grow up to make thier own descicions, that's what I did.
geojunkee: yeah, I'd torture you with God debates and bacon.
Coyote: Evil girl.
geojunkee: And I'm sure you're looking for a god chick.
Coyote: Not so much, I fear too much of the holy-roller action.
geojunkee: Not evil, just ummm, fun.
Coyote: And evil is just 'live' spelled backwards, so maybe dyslexics have the most fun of all.

Coyote: Remember, I joined the Army too (conservative) and prefer to work as an artist/cartoonist and writer (liberal). I'm a bloddy werewolf.
geojunkee: Yeah, but i hate the military too.
geojunkee: So we'd have issues.
geojunkee: Though I do love cartoons.
Coyote: Enough issues ot open a magazine stand. Think of it instead as character. Enough character, in fact, to open on Broadway instead.
geojunkee: You have?
geojunkee: Or are you quoting?
Coyote: After all I've wrassled with to get here? C'mon.
Coyote: I'm fairly alive, awake...
geojunkee: ????
Coyote: You know, aware of myself and where I stand, I think.
geojunkee: what have you wrassled with?
Coyote: I don't live corporate brand-name moment ot corporate brand-name moment.
Coyote: OTOH I recognize the value of 'the system'.
geojunkee: Yeah, but you believe in god.
Coyote: Oh, the turning from family, tradition, past, going on my own, eschewing the 'standard' way of growing up and living, etc.
geojunkee: And you don't eat bacon.
Coyote: Because I chose this route consciously.
geojunkee: And you do that military thing.
geojunkee: And you'd hate me.
geojunkee: Because I'd argue with you ALL the time about god.
Coyote: Ask this; who would you want in the military? An order drone, or a humanities major?
geojunkee: And I'd put bacon in your mouth while you sleep.
Coyote: One who just does, or one who questions if we've been here before?
geojunkee: I can't imagine WANTING to be in the military.
Coyote: Ah, but to put bacon in my mouth while I sleep would be pointlessly mean, as opposed to an active, engaged discussion with real issues.
Coyote: Cartoons: ahoy! I sent her a file of a drawing I did~~ Coyote
geojunkee: see, I'm dirty like that.
Coyote: What would you argue about God?
Coyote: For example...
geojunkee: I'd debate with you and get nowhere, because you can't talk a god lover out of loving god.
Coyote: Ah, but would I take it personally or not? Why would it matter to you?
Coyote: Not like I'd want you to be in a burqua, for example.
geojunkee: and then it would come down to bacon treatment because you deserved it.
Coyote: Simply for believing in God?
geojunkee: Hmmmmmm, the file wouldn't go through.
geojunkee: yeah, it's a huge crime.
Coyote: I'll try again....
geojunkee: I wouldn't let you get hit by a bus if I saw it coming.
geojunkee: So how could I let you believe lies?
Coyote: Try the Pasal argument, or the Rosseau pov.
geojunkee: Sorry, too eclectic.
Coyote: Is it the whole 'lack o' proof' thing?
geojunkee: But you can send more photos and maybe I'll consider it.
geojunkee: That's part of it.
Coyote: tchtchtch. For pix, man, for pix she speaks....
Coyote: On the way.
geojunkee: The biggest part though, and this is the part that gets me, is if you really believed in god wouldn't you do exactly what you're told he wants you to do? Yet all these god freaks just blow that part off. I mean, if I thought there was a god who could damn me to hell you'd better believe I'd play by the rules.
Coyote: The rules are interpreted and created by who? People. People want what? Power. For usually selfish purposes.
Coyote: I do what I want, basically. I think that is what God gave us brains for. They're there to use. Make choices, excercise the cerebral cortex, get the blood flowing there.
Coyote: This damning to hell stuff is very Christian, actually.
Coyote: Doesn't compute 'coording to the Rabbis I learned from..
geojunkee: Sure, the hell part is, but I'm talking about all god lovers, not just jews.
Coyote: Eh, I can't speak for them.
geojunkee: Man, you really think there's some dude in the sky that just creates stuff and wants you to be "good"?
Coyote: I can't stand up for the guy that say "god sez to put women in veils and fly planes into buildings". Tey're reading out of a whacked vision, I think.
geojunkee: But it's all the same thing.
geojunkee: It is.
geojunkee: It's all about invisible friends and instability.
geojunkee: And non-accountability
geojunkee: And crutches.
geojunkee: And excuses.
Coyote: Those are the peopel saying "the voices told me" or "the devil made me do it".
geojunkee: And you do things your invisible friend tells you to do.
geojunkee: It's the same psychosis.
Coyote: Cal it what you will, but I think those people are mentally weak to begin with and if it wasn't god, it would be Marx or the President or some other figure tellng them what to do.
geojunkee: I agree.
geojunkee: And who would it be for you?
Coyote: Red herring. You're assuming I talk to invisible friends and seek escape from responsibility through them.
Coyote: You are putting me in a box that does not fit.
geojunkee: See? This is the conversation we'd have all the time.
Coyote: Well, you asked....
geojunkee: Why don't you eat pork?
Coyote: I agree with the interpretation.
Coyote: I have the ability not to agree if I choose.
geojunkee: Go on, explain.
geojunkee: Why don't you eat pork?
Coyote: That's it, though-- I chose to, not someone told me and I did it. I was told something and i agreed with it and thought, okay, I'll go along.
Coyote: Why don't you murder?
Coyote: Think, it would be so easy to kill the bastard that cuts you off on the freeway....
geojunkee: And that's the same attitude that the terrorists had isn't it?
geojunkee: I have personal beliefs and some dictated by society on what is right and wrong. But none of them are based on invisible friends, unicorns, ghosts or aliens.
Coyote: Partially. The terrorists did, indeed, use what someone told them about God to weasel out of responsibility.
geojunkee: But they thought they were doing the right thing.
Coyote: What people think is their problem. I'm sorry they thought believing in God meant listeningot little whispers urging them to kill.
geojunkee: And I'll give you the extreme psychosis and oppression induced rebellion.
geojunkee: And you believe it means don't eat pig?
geojunkee: What the fuck?
geojunkee: It's just as weird.
Coyote: There is a huge moral differecne bwteen eschewing ham and mass murder, though, I am sure you see that.
geojunkee: we're not talking about morality, we're talking about insanity.
geojunkee: cults
geojunkee: unjustifyable behavior
Coyote: I wonder what part of "Thou shalt not kill" the terrs didn't get? Sems pretty straightforward to me.
geojunkee: that's your bible isn't it?
Coyote: Last time I checked.
geojunkee: And then how can you be in the military and follow that rule?
geojunkee: It's all religion and murder.
geojunkee: And shifting blame.
geojunkee: And rationalization.
Coyote: How about this-- when I look at my beliefs, I am under the impresion that I am supposed to be a decent human being and treat others with respect. They see something ugly and evil. Yet you judge all by that lowest denominator. Not even the lowest COMMON denominator. Is that fair?
Coyote: I can be in the military because of the hosers and villains out there that do bad things. It is wrong to kill, it is worse to sit and watch the neighbors get killed and hide behind religion to keep from getting involved. Becoming an accomplice by defaut. That is, indeed, when religion becomes a snake hole.
geojunkee: But that's EXACTLY how they felt.
geojunkee: So how can you not see it from their point of view?
Coyote: And you are saying that their interpretation was the correct one?
geojunkee: How is it wrong if they defend their beliefs and right if you do?
Coyote: Because you can use it to justify your own hatred?
geojunkee: No, I think both sides are fucking crazy.
Coyote: My beliefs say to be good ot others. Their beliefs say to kill everyone who is not just like themselves. I trust you to see the merit in one path over the other, there is no room for moral trelativity here.
geojunkee: And pointing fingers at behavior they're both guilty of.
geojunkee: I don't think their beliefs say that at all. And really just by killing them for thinking different than you, you're a hypocrite.
geojunkee: They felt endangered and they used that to justify murder.
geojunkee: You do the same thing.
geojunkee: And both of you in the name of morality and god.
geojunkee: It's mental.
Coyote: Perhaps. But again, I ask you, what is the killing being done for? They kill because they want to murder everyone that doesn't act like them. I kill them because of their attack. You think they are the same thing?
geojunkee: And worse that you can't see it for what it is.
geojunkee: They felt attacked.
geojunkee: They struck back.
Coyote: Many people feel attacked all the time. They don't murder.
geojunkee: But that's what you're doing.
Coyote: So by your own reasoning, if I feel attacked by your argument here, then I have every right to kill you?
geojunkee: No, only under your rules.
geojunkee: By my reasoning both sides are wrong.
Coyote: Actually, my rules are ti respect others opinions even if I diagree.
geojunkee: And murder is not acceptable behavior even in retaliation.
Coyote: Did Osama ask to address th UN to voice his complaints, or did he skip the prelims and jump right o the bombs?
Coyote: Did he attack the people who made th epolicies, or the troops who could at least defend themselves?
Coyote: No, he attacked shopkeeperes and stockbrokers and tourists,. And face it in NYC, these are mostly liberals who would have given him a sympathetic ear.
Coyote: Theterrs didn't care. They wanted blood. If someone comes to kill you, are you to stand aside and watch and do nothing? Whether you believe in god or not?
geojunkee: I'm not saying that they were justified. I'm saying you're a hypocrite.
Coyote: For defending?
geojunkee: By defending using war? YES.
geojunkee: Look, we can argue for the rest of our lives and you'll still be wrong. So we should drop it.
Coyote: What would you suggest? These people do not sit down to teas and discussion, if they did we wouldn't be in htis mess.
Coyote: It never entered your mind that you may not have seen all possible sides of the equation?
geojunkee: But it's clear that we'd have issues beyond friendship.
Coyote: Perhaps. I a do not get all foamy about this.
Coyote: If everyone thought the same way as I did, I'd be creeped out.
geojunkee: Ummmm, the absurdity of your argument destroys your case without my help.
Coyote: I'd want my money back, that's for sure.
geojunkee: I don't doubt I've missed a side or two.
Coyote: Yur lack of any alternative whatsoever gives me no where to fall back on.
geojunkee: You're not seeing their god, through your own.
Coyote: How much have oyu studied Islam?
geojunkee: And the worst part is that you're all psychotic blood seeking retalatory god freaks.
geojunkee: I don't need to study Islam.
Coyote: You made a very sweeping generalization, there....
geojunkee: Yes, I did.
Coyote: It helps ot understand that which you claim ot hate... Islam, or religion in general.
geojunkee: Once again, no god. Absurd hypocrytic stance. And I don't need to study islam to see the holes in your logic.
Coyote: You don't even know-- exactly-- what you are against. Just a semi-formed idea that you made up as you want along(?)
geojunkee: Can we stop now?
geojunkee: Please.
Coyote: OK.
Coyote: (shrug).
Coyote: How's the dog?
geojunkee: I learned years ago not to argue god with a god freak.
geojunkee: Or war with a soldier.
Coyote: Heeheeheee... 'freak'......
Coyote: Soldiers to tend to know war... but.... I thought you wanted ot drop it.
geojunkee: And you're both of those things.
Coyote: Name calling and generalization.... the hallmark of...?
geojunkee: I'm not calling names.
Coyote: You haven't met enough truly devoted god freaks. I am so low intensity...
Coyote: 'freak'?
geojunkee: You're intense enough to rationalize behavior by it.
geojunkee: Freak isn't a dirty word.
geojunkee: I'm a sex freak.
Coyote: Oh, that's a much better subject.
geojunkee: And a claymation freak
Coyote: "The Wrong Trousers!"
geojunkee: And a geology freak
Coyote: That rocks.
geojunkee: My dog's name is Gromit you know.
Coyote: *snicker*
geojunkee: bad joke.
Coyote: Indeed!
geojunkee: cracking.
Coyote: Oh, such a gem. How old is Gromit?
geojunkee: ok tweaker, I've got to get some sleep.
geojunkee: She's 7
Coyote: Goopd, mine's 11...
Coyote: OK. get some sleep, and feel free to call again.
geojunkee: Funny.
Coyote: serious.
Coyote: Lata.
geojunkee: lates.
geojunkee: You're still very good looking despite the god and war thing.
Coyote: Thanks. You're hot for a... whtever you are...
geojunkee: Atheist.
geojunkee: Say it with me.
Coyote: Good enough.
Coyote: A-theist, 'from the greek, 'without religion"
geojunkee: Indeed.
geojunkee: Or maybe for a sex freak?
Coyote: agnostic, from the greek ag'nostos.... or Deist. Actually closert o my pov.
Coyote: Oh, sex freak is an entirely different genus.
geojunkee: I hate agnostics more than god freaks
Coyote: I believe the "ohyessus ohbabyus"
geojunkee: But that's another night.
Coyote: 'k
geojunkee: h ha ha ahhah

And so it ended. Now ideologicaly I am asking a stacked deck its opinion, but I think she never did make a real argument although she did keep things interesting. Still, I walked away from tha thinking that she was basically arguing as a "Funadamentalist Athiest", with knee-jerk emotional reactions rather than solid basis. Analysis/comments?

[NecronLord]

Such a person does not exist. That's like saying "A christian atheist"

Again, judaism is a religion, not a race.

[h0rus]

"geojunkee: Ummmm, the absurdity of your argument destroys your case without my help."

Funny how she veers away from the discussion once it starts to get spicy. That my friend is cowardice. She has strong views and is set on seeing you a certain way by association. I don't really see a point in arguing with her at all. But those blue eyed dark haired kids are kinda hard to pass up, eh? =p

[Rye]

Such a person does not exist. That's like saying "A christian atheist"

Again, judaism is a religion, not a race.

Couldn't you still do all the passover thing and the rituals without actually believing it?

[neoolong]

Such a person does not exist. That's like saying "A christian atheist"

Again, judaism is a religion, not a race.

Couldn't you still do all the passover thing and the rituals without actually believing it?

It wouldn't really make you still Jewish though would it? It's like the kid that is forced by his parents to celebrate Christmas by going to Mass and stuff, and is an atheist. Would he be considered a Christian Atheist?

[Tosho]

Such a person does not exist. That's like saying "A christian atheist"

Again, judaism is a religion, not a race.

I once found a site on Judaism (unfortunatly I cant find the link ) which addressed your point, according to the site Judaism is neither religion or race but a culture. Ill see if I can find the site for you.

[Saurencaerthai]

Such a person does not exist. That's like saying "A christian atheist"

Again, judaism is a religion, not a race.

Care to back that?

[Saurencaerthai]

Coyote: I wonder what part of "Thou shalt not kill" the terrs didn't get? Sems pretty straightforward to me.

::Chuckles:: No, actually, it's "You shall not murder". Big difference between killing and murder. Doesn't change what she said, but I just love that mistranslation!

[Alyeska]

Such a person does not exist. That's like saying "A christian atheist"

Again, judaism is a religion, not a race.

Incorrect. There are enough traits that there is a Jewish subset that is passed on genetically. You can be either Jewish by race or by Religion, or both. So technicaly you can be an Atheist Jew (race). However, you can not be an Atheist Jew (religion).

[Coyote]

I think anyone can be a "Fundamentalist" because really it means someone who wants to return to the basic, fundamental concepts of a movement. For example, I'd say that there could be a Fundamentalist Communist who discounts anything piled onto the ideology after Marx. Usually called "Marxists", they would be, essentially, Fundy Communists.

But that's my take on it, anyway.

As for the race/religion thing, it usually breaks down that Jewish is the religion, and the race or ethnic component would be called "Hebrew". But Hebrew is now usually used to describe the Jews in Biblical times and sounds anachronistic today. So "Jewish" becomes the default term for both. I met a lot of Jews who are atheists or deists, but maintain their cultural and traditional connections.

It di seem odd to me that someone so vehement about religion would want to raise kids in Jewish traditional awareness though....