First real religious debate outside SD.net

[DPDarkPrimus]

This thread is to highlight my first real religious debate with someone outside Stardestroyer.net. (The one with that other idiot doesn't count because he was so stupid.)

I will be posting transcripts from the debate here in a few hours. Until then, it's just an announcement thread.

[Tosho]

I can't wait, ::looks a DPDarkPrimus's loc.:: so your back from Nihon, eh? how was it?

[DPDarkPrimus]

It was great.

BTW, I jumped into this debate after it was going on for a while, so no opening statements or anything...

On this topic of Christian religion...

the Bible. that's the best proof we have.

So, the Bible proves itself? Circular logic. How about a document other than the Bible?

unless you want to go to Hell. it's your choice.

Personal attack. Also, that is assuming that I believe in a hell, which I don't.

yeah, and where does that 'moral' come from? people's logic? then where does that logic come from? it comes from somewhere, and it starts with letters 'religio'.

Where's the logic in that? You provide no proof to prove what you say.

~snip~
the whole list of miracles Jesus did. go look up in the Bible, it says there.

Note: The snipped part was basically lists of most of the miracles in the Old and New Testament



You can't use the Bible to prove itself. Give documentation from another source to prove these miracles.

prove Pi wrong. i dare you

Wait a sec, don't go against your god there. The Bible says that Pi is exactly three, y'know.

but can you prove that 'fact' is a 'fact'?

only 'facts' you have are theories. aren't i correct? if they are theories, they don't have sufficient information or data to back it up to make it into a 'law'. if it isn't a 'law' there are major known flaws in it.

that means your 'facts' are wrong.

Because there is a flaw in part of something, does not make the entire thing wrong. Otherwise, the Bible is plenty wrong, considering all the contradictions it has. Furthermore, it seems that you don't know the correct scientific definition of a "theory". Nothing in said definition says anything about a theory having to have major flaws in it. In any case, do you have more evidence for Creation than scientists have for evolution?

but how DO you know that existence was there in the first place? how can you make that sentence valid in the first place BEFORE you have written it? observations?

I can ask you the same question, and will. How do you know that god was there before the Big Bang?

Then, you must also prove that God currently exists now. I would say Chistianity's arguments for God are at about 0%, as every one of them has been logically refuted millions of times.

50-50 because you can't prove he doesn't exist either.

Wrong. You have the burden of proof on you. There is no evidence for the proof of the existance of god. Unless you provide evidence of the fact, the burden of proof is that he doesn't exist.

most medicines work that way; they don't do anything in terms of 'curing', but it does psychologically.

Oh really?

where does that idea of repect come from? humans can't just make it up, since they don't know it or can even define it in the first place.

re·spect ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-spkt)
tr.v. re·spect·ed, re·spect·ing, re·spects

1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
2. To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
3. To relate or refer to; concern.


n.

1. A feeling of appreciative, often deferential regard; esteem. See Synonyms at regard.
2. The state of being regarded with honor or esteem.
3. Willingness to show consideration or appreciation.
4. respects Polite expressions of consideration or deference: pay one's respects.
5. A particular aspect, feature, or detail: In many respects this is an important decision.

Looks like humans can define it after all. And just where does the idea of respect come from? From humans, of course.

i can safely say that there would be no morality in a godless world, since i already have my share of argument that people wouldn't know that morality in the first place. prove me wrong.

Morality is defined by society, NOT religion. Religion is indeed a part of society, but if there wasn't a religion in a society, that doesn't mean that they would suddenly be unable of forming a moral code, a sense of right and wrong. Prove me wrong.

He replied, and had the gall to say to my "Prove me wrong"

I just did. blah

My response to him again:

they are theories. and i have nothing against others theories.

Please, kindly state these theories.

the first book of Bible was written by Moses, which i honestly don't know exactly when it was, but it's certain it's very, very long ago. and there it is, Ten Commandments, where it outlines what everyone must do in order to be 'pure'.

1) It was never said who first wrote Genesis. 2) What you said does not provide a logical answer, which is what I asked for.

http: //www.jeremiahproject.com/prophecy/apolog1.html

Note: Link broken during transcription.


I said PROOF. That provides none. If you want me to point out why, then quote particular parts of the page for me. I'm not going to go through the long process of tearing apart the entire page in it's entirety, that would take a few hours.

where does it say that? if it does say, then i guess 3 is correct; it's close enough.

First Book Of Kings, 7:23

Your saying that pi being 3 would be "close enough" is absolutely ludicrous, you obvious know nothing about mathmatics if you think that way.

let me remind you; i agree to the theory of evolution. there's nothing wrong as i can see fit. the question is, why would you think that it doesn't fit with what Bible says?

Because the Bible is wrong.

now you know the exact reason why i don't go around killing people because they aren't a Christian. because i don't have any backup ideas either. nor do the opposers. thus, i don't force people into believing Christianity.

Wait... so if you DID have proof, you would go around killing non-Christians? Wow, you got problems. You didn't answer my question, in any case.

Miracles in bible -> no archeological findings that contradict it -> Jesus did exist, and was true He did these miracles -> Jesus is correct in what He's saying -> He's Son of God -> then there certainly has to be God.

Miracles in bible -> no archeolgical findings that PROVE it -> no archeological findings that PROVE Jesus existed -> NO PROOF of Jesus existing

That is what your chart meant to say, right? Because the one you made has a bunch of leaps in logic.

first off, humans gained the ability to distinguish between good and evil etc etc from Tree of Knowledge.

ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, WHICH IS NOT PROVEN TO BE AN ACCURATE SOURCE OF INFORMATION. I needed to type that in all caps so that maybe, just maybe, you would stop using the Bible to try and provide evidence for things.

even then people didn't know the difference clearly. so God made Moses write that ten commandments up. now, people know not to murder, rape, steal etc etc. and it just so happens that it's now so deep in the human society that people think it's 'natural'.

Nice how you glossed over the fact that I proved that humans can define morality. And you say that people know not to murder, rape, and steal? Well then, why DO THEY STILL DO IT? Oh, right, the Devil. What a convenient device to blame everything on.

just did. blah.

Just didn't. Blah.

I'll continue this debate in a few hours. I need to sleep.


EDIT: Added Bible passage.

[DPDarkPrimus]

There was a two day pause in the debate, where some of the other members compared GuGu to an annoying fundie that was there long ago.

Then, he came back.

My reply to him:

any theory as such that attempts to prove or give wider viewpoint on how the world was created, how it reached this point of time and/or how the universe will be altered into the future.

this includes, but not limited to;

Theory of Evolution
Big Bang Theory
and Religions.

That's not what I asked for. I asked for the theories that you said provided proof for events in the Bible. You have provided none. Furthermore, religious beliefs are just that, beliefs. They are not, and should not, be thrown in the same category as scientific theories, which have scientific evidence to support them.

and since God wouldn't really come down and write the Genesis himself, and since Moses is the most known 'prophet' of God those days, Moses is guessed as to who wrote the Genesis.

You just killed your arguement yourself, since the website you linked has this to say:

One fact is crystal clear -- the Author of Genesis was not human!

Note: Yes, he provided a link. I'm not bothering to include it.

2) as i said, there is no logic in reading Bible. thus, you can't really 'ask' for logic.

Which is EXACTLY why I don't subscribe to the Christian faith. You just admitted it yourself, the Bible is illogical. Why place your belief in an illogical thing?

the only proof i have is that there is no proof found that actually goes against the Bible's sayings.

There is, ass. It's called SCIENCE. Also, the Bible contradicts itself so many times, it's not even funny.

1) three it says. close enough.

Once again, I say: You are an ASS with absolutely NO GROUNDING IN MATHMATICS if you think that a whole number is "close enough" to a number with decimals. Exactness is a necessity in math.

then PROVE it wrong. and remember, your 'theories' don't work since they too aren't 'solid' enough to be facts. thus, no facts = no proof.

What did I tell you about burden of proof? I don't have to prove anything, because there is no proof that god exists. THEREFORE, the burden of proof is on you to prove that he DOES exist.
Also, you are an idiot with your whole "theories aren't facts" stitck. The difference between scientific laws and scientific theories is that scientific laws are KNOWN phenomenon that will always fuction the same way. However, even they need to be revised as new facts come to light.
Scientific THEORIES, on the other hand, are not phenomena that will definately occur the same way 100% of the time, and therefore cannot be laws. Being a theory does in no way destroy a theory's validity.
And as for your "no facts=no proof" BS, there is plenty of proof for all widely accepted scientific theories, INCLUDING evolution.

all prophecies in Bible proved true to this day, except the single one which is yet to happen; Jesus coming back for... well, end of world.

Once again, you are using the Bible to prove itself... look at it this way... if you were going to write a book of religion, would you make it so that it made itself look good? May I remind you that all these prophesies were about Jesus, WHO HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN TO EXIST AT ALL. Furthermore, there are plenty of prohpecies in the Bible that haven't been proven true... like the entire book of Revelations.

http:// www.corp.direct.ca/trinity/part2.html

oh yeah, if you can't be stuffed to read it, then you're just being lazy.

Nice personal attack there. I did read a little bit of it, but I didn't have to read anymore, because, once again, you are trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible is correct! That! Is! Circular! Logic! You need to get other documents to prove the Bible's validity!

i think i clearly said that humans was only able to define morality because of something outside their thoughts. and that's Bible.

The vast majority of the world has never even SEEN a Bible before, and they can define morality. Explain that.

no message gets across, so in turn you don't even get what i'm saying.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Here, he completely ignores my post, and decides to discuss another members post, which came after my own. Which I took to mean he wanted me to tear it apart.

Oh, before I start... just because I make this post, doesn't mean I don't want you to answer my previous one as well.

Originally posted by GuGuEaTeR anyway, there's a reason why there's the revised NIV version. all the stuff that is historically stupid to put in Bible is cut off; which some people like, some people don't like.

After which, you said...

i'm pretty certain people who'd be bothered enough to change the inside of the bible would be the ones who researched it enough to know that you'll be purnished severely by God if you change the contents. so it's safe to assume that majorily distributed bibles are translations, not interpretations.

Wait, so what about the people who did the NIV of the Bible? They changed the contents by deleting "historically stupid".

--- well im gods son too, so me and jesus make up 2/3 of the trinity

>> prove you are God's son. i won't believe you until you do.

Does it not say in the Bible that we are all God's children?

there's a difference between a son and children in Bible. but God loves them both the same anyways, and that's the similarity. but children don't have any power whatsoever.

Son= male childen. Since all of us (according to the Bible) are God's children, he is God's son.

-----the serpent of genesis is jewish, not xtain, thus it isnt satan.

think boy think, it isnt that hard

>> the snake was born from a jew? i don't get you

Let me explain it to you simply: Since there is no concept of Satan in the Jewish belief, and Genesis was originally as part of Jewish scripture, the serpent in the Garden of Eden is not Satan.

Lucifer is NOT part of the Christian belief. yeah, that Lucifer found in Issaiah(sp?) chapter.

So, the being mentioned in the New Testament of the Bible is not part of the Christian belief, never you mind that it is IN YOUR FREAKING HOLY BOOK?!? You idiot.

all Christians matter is relation between a person and God.

Not all Christians believe that.

as i said before, Christians are here because they don't really give a damn about the Old Testament.

If this is true, then why is the Old Testament still printed and included in the same book as the New Testament?

have fun with old testament. that part of bible means almost nothing to Christians, since there is no point in it for us.

Oh? No point in it? What about those Ten Commandments? Or the fact that you keep talking about Moses?

>> because that's the alternate way to go to heaven. being perfect. but since no human CAN be perfect... they all go to hell.

Wait a minute... ALL HUMANS GO TO HELL?? I thought that accepting Jesus as your savior would get you into heaven? Hmm... guess if I'm damned no matter what...

--- make belief

>> not good enough explanation, i'm afraid.

-- as above

>> not good enough explanation, i'm afraid.

Then please, explain them better. In scientific terms.

--- do you have any proof? have you been there yourself? or are you just towing the line used to manipulate people into beleiving outdated theories

>> it says in the bible, which i believe. false believers aren't true friends of Jesus. and Jesus will turn His back on them.

Stop using the Bible to prove points before I beat you over the head with one.

at least until now, no scientific theory has proven that God didn't create the universe.

LISTEN TO ME! THERE IS NO NEED TO PROVE THAT GOD DID NOT CREATE THE UNIVERSE! There is already a scientific theory that explains the universe, called the Big Bang. It has scientific evidence to support it. You have to provide scientific evidence that God DID create the universe. And let me just remind you: YOU CANNOT USE THE BIBLE AS SCIENTIFIC PROOF.

This is the full text of what transpired. I only included the last line in my actual post:

--- untill now no scientific theory has proven i didnt create the universe, or the moogles

a lot did. you are merely a human. how could you possibly have created the universe? and since i can talk to you directly, i can ask you how you did it. explain.

but moogles, now that's different. since that's another entity, and since you can make up whatever you want with them, i'm not discussing them. again, i'm going to forcefully change your concepts of yourself and your beliefs. thus, if you want, believe what you want with moogles.

and moogles of FF series really don't exist.

[/color]

and moogles of FF series really don't exist.

I believe they exist. I have proof they exist. *Points at Final Fantasy games* There is proof they exist. Therefore, they do exist.

question is, CAN anyone read the hewbrew version? maybe for serious archeological people who wants to read it badly.

Or, maybe, PEOPLE WHO CAN READ HEBREW! It's not like Hebrew is a dead language or anything.

>> people around middle east areas can. but since most of them believe in muslim, they don't even bother with new testaments bible. and mind you, i only care about the new testament.

1) One does not believe in Musilm, they ARE of the Islamic faith, or ARE Muslim.

2) There is a good percentage of people in the Middle East who are of the Jewish religon.

i can safely assume he's a false believer, considering he does break one of the christian rules purposely, which btw is Love your neighbours like yourself.

Do not all humans sin? You must have broken a Christian rule purposely sometime in your life. You must be a false believer, then.

i don't think i have ever seen a real Christian suicide. not even one.

A kid who goes to the church I frequent committed suicide last month. He was highly religious. Explain that.

God doesn't help humans. He never said he will, at least not in this 'world'.

But he's done plenty to harm humans. See Genesis, Exodus, and most of the other books of the Old Testament.

That is all that has happened so far. I am awaiting his next reply...

[DPDarkPrimus]

Hey, wait, no, he just replied! I am getting a headache from his Wall of Ignorance.

[ quote="GuGuEaTeR"]http:// www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t003.html

it isn't too long.

No, it isn't. I read all of it. And it all uses the Bible for proof. When I specifically told you NOT to use the Bible for proof.

is God human? no. it makes sense.

Moses is also the author simply, in english, he wrote it. you know, get a pen or anything like that and start writing...

Mere semantics. You have said time and time again that Moses was the author of Genesis. Don't start debating the meaning of "author" now.

you're not God. how can you know the logic behind God? you don't even know Him well. then how are you supposed to base logic around him?

You have already admitted that the Bible is illogical. No logic=illogical. God is illogical. So it is illogical that God exists.

i'm no different; i haven't 'physically' seen him, nor did i ever 'hear' from him, like, him saying to my ears. i only know by conscience what to do. and that's not logical.

Indeed it isn't. It's called morals. Morals not given to one by the Bible, but rather, by those who have major part in raising the child. Those around a child are those who shape the child's moral values.

then you expect the Bible to state out the exact Pi, as in, every single decimal?

Of course not. The first few decimal places would have sufficed. Even 3.14 would have been good.

also, it doesn't SAY the pi, only a measuring that rim or something.

That is pi.

What did I tell you about burden of proof? I don't have to prove anything, because there is no proof that god exists. THEREFORE, the burden of proof is on you to prove that he DOES exist.

thus, it cancles out that it's impossible to decide who is right NOR wrong. thus, why don't you stop calling me a stupid or an idiot, and just stick with your beliefs instead of trying to prove that Christianity is wrong since it'll never be known until either me or you die anyway?

No, it doesn't. I don't have to prove that Christianity is incorrect, because there is no evidence to the contrary. (Evidence to the contrary means that there is no evidence that proves Christianity is correct.) THEREFORE, it is you who must prove that Christianity is correct.

That is how the burden of proof goes. Quit trying to weasel out of it and provide me with some proof. If you can.

here's how laws and theories are made;

1st stage => observation
2nd stage => hypothesis
3rd stage => experiment
4th stage => if it's works, then it becomes a theory, if not, repeat 2nd stage
5th stage => if it proves to be quite repeatable, then it becomes acknowledged as a law
6th stage => laws can sometimes be found when a new observation comes into play. thus, demolish this law and repeat 2nd stage.

that's how science works.

and since _you_ can't even do 1st stage of it, what is there for you to argue?

How can I not get past the stage of observation? I have observed evolution.

Have you observed evidence of God? No? Then what is there to argue?

at least the Bible is a theory, since people tested it, and it worked. thus, it's a theory.

THE BIBLE IS A PIECE OF RELIGOUS TEXT. IT IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC DOCUMENT.

all the prophecies that described in the bible except one came true. thus, it's almost probable that it should be a law. just that one didn't come yet, so it's not yet.

You keep ignoring my point that the Bible cannot prove it's own validity. Get me some other historical proof that the miracles in the Bible happened.

and for the theory of evolution, as i said, i have nothing against it. did you read that? i have nothing against that. why it isn't a law, i don't know, since i don't study in biology. one thing for sure, it's still a theory.

It isn't a law because there is not enough known about how evolution works. If you knew anything about science past the 5th grade, you would know that scientific theories can be accepted, more or less, as fact.

fact 1) all prophecies in the Bible came true except one; Revelations

Fact: You cannot use the Bible to prove the Bible.

Stop fucking ignoring me and start using a different source to prove the Bible as true.

fact 2) not even the most well studied Christians or theologists can figure out the meaning of Revelations. and they know that Revelations is 100% figurative.

Fact: No shit. What is your point?

fact 3) revelations itself is 1 prophecy. it's a big one, and that's why it's got a whole book for it self.

Fact: So what? Why are you telling me this?

The vast majority of the world has never even SEEN a Bible before, and they can define morality. Explain that.

because they have the 'animal' morality. like monkeys.

Bullshit. The Native Americans had a highly developed moral code before colonists ever came to America.

but it still is anarchy. if someone does something wrong or good, they'll only react by how much they feel.

That is what morality is.

complex human thoughts come into play. will they just kill the offender/give the good person stuff, or will they react otherwise?

Nice black-and-white fallacy. There is much more to it.

just like monkeys. you may think that humans are more than monkeys, which is somewhat true considering we do know the difference between 'good and evil', but it still means that we'd live like them if not for the Bible or any religion for that matter of fact.

As a matter of fact, you're wrong. I have covered why before in this post.

but then again, gorillas seems to know the good and evil too. thus, evolution does make sense.

How does it seeming that gorillas have a moral code prove evolution?

then that means Adam and Eve were nothing but...

i won't go so far. not like i have proof anyways.

No, Adam and Eve weren't gorillas. Otherwise, they wouldn't have been the first humans. (Oh, and I use "Adam" and "Eve" as a generic term for the first human male and female, not as example from the Bible.)

And that's damn right, it's not like you have proof anyways. Just like you don't have proof anyways for your religon being true.

EDIT: Feel free to give me any tips/advice.

[Tosho]

most medicines work that way; they don't do anything in terms of 'curing', but it does psychologically.

What kind of moron says that seriously?

How was your luck with ::BarryWhitevoice::the ladys::BarryWhitevoice:: in Nihon?

[A Big Flying Fish]

most medicines work that way; they don't do anything in terms of 'curing', but it does psychologically.

Reminds of an episode of the Dilbert cartoon
Evil pointed haired boss "Try these brand new pills, Place-bos, cured my stomach ache in seconds."

[Darth Gojira]

My my my, how one sided this debate is. I am surprised he hasn't conceeded defeat. Ah well, religion is a serious subject.....

[Enforcer Talen]

-adds dp to his msn-

we need a new gunmen in aiif. =^_^=

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

have fun with old testament. that part of bible means almost nothing to Christians, since there is no point in it for us.

This guy is a low-class fundie debater, some Christians at least would try to use an alternative explanation of "Jesus came to fulfill the law".

question is, CAN anyone read the hewbrew version? maybe for serious archeological people who wants to read it badly.

Proof that this is a low-class fundie debater again: At least most of the better ones have read the Hebrew version or at least read about the explanations of the translation, and begin to brag about skeptics "not understanding the true meaning of the Bible..yadda yadda yadda".

This guy has a Wall of Ignorance, built from paper.

[Vympel]

Your replies got better with each post- there were a few things I would've phrased differently, and a few points where I can't believe you didn't tear him a new asshole (specifically his moron claim that the Bible is a theory), but all in all this is a fun read.

[Rye]

-adds dp to his msn-

we need a new gunmen in aiif. =^_^=

aiif?

And by the way, has anyone noticed how happy the ^_^ style of faces look?

Dp, very pleasing stuff to read, kudos!

[Xenophobe3691]

as i said before, Christians are here because they don't really give a damn about the Old Testament.

have fun with old testament. that part of bible means almost nothing to Christians, since there is no point in it for us.

Didn't Jesus say that he didn't come to change that law, not one bit?

question is, CAN anyone read the hewbrew version? maybe for serious archeological people who wants to read it badly.

LOL, that's fucking hilarious. That guy can come over to my house and meet my relatives, and tell me WHAT FUCKING LANGUAGE THEY SPEAK. That, and huge portions of the Bible were written in Aramaic!!!

>> people around middle east areas can. but since most of them believe in muslim, they don't even bother with new testaments bible. and mind you, i only care about the new testament.

Wow. You're an idiot. I hope you realize that all Jesus knew was the Old Testament. It was his life and livelihood, ya know, BEING A RABBI AND ALL! That, and I wonder what religion they worship in that little country along the Mediterranean...I forgot the name...Oh yeah, ISRAEL!

What an idiot. All he's doing is spouting shit he's learned, then again, that's all that they can do. I pity him.

[Enforcer Talen]

anti idiot invasion force. 8 or 9 fundy hunters on msn.

[Gil Hamilton]

Ooooh, he loves the sweet, sweet circular logic.

[DPDarkPrimus]

How was your luck with ::BarryWhitevoice::the ladys::BarryWhitevoice:: in Nihon?

Not nearly as lucky as Barry would have wanted.

Talen, I have my MSN contact listed here? I almost never get on MSN these days... Try me on AIM.

[Enforcer Talen]

I never go on aim

[DPDarkPrimus]

I never go on aim

IRC?

[Mitth`raw`nuruodo]

I never go on aim

IRC?

irc.wyldryde.net
#stardestroyer

/me goes back into the hidey-hole he came from

[lance]

So arguments against creationists can be summed up as

1. you can not use the bible to prove itself
2. you need to provide proof that the bible is true, not for me to provide proof that it is wrong.

[Master of Ossus]

So arguments against creationists can be summed up as

1. you can not use the bible to prove itself
2. you need to provide proof that the bible is true, not for me to provide proof that it is wrong.

The creationist must provide EVIDENCE that the Bible has more accurate predictive capabilities than scientific theories that contradict it.

Note the difference. It's actually quite substantial.

[DPDarkPrimus]

The message board the debate is on is currently down for upgrading, but when it gets back up...

I am planning on posting a count of the number of times GuGuEater has used the Bible as evidence for itself, and the number of times I have told him that one cannot do that.

Good idea, neh?

[Exonerate]

-adds dp to his msn-

we need a new gunmen in aiif. =^_^=

aiif?

And by the way, has anyone noticed how happy the ^_^ style of faces look?

Dp, very pleasing stuff to read, kudos!

Don't listen to Talen, the AIIF does not exist, and never has. It is merely a rumor.

*Levels electric cattle prod at Talen menacingly*

^_^ type smilies are enough to make anybody look Asian ^.~

If you're interested, contact Alyrium or me if you're looking for debates...

[Dark Hellion]

Just be ready for the big idiots, who no matter how soundly you beat them, keep coming for more. Some have darkstar or even (bum bum bum) Darkstar+ levels of ignorance. They make normal christians look like satanists, and think normal christians are as well. Against these people, subtly insulting them behind there back and ignorinng them seem to be the only things that work. Get them made enough and invariably they will get themselves banned. Try it, its a hoot.

[Tosho]

Since he thinks that hebrew is a dead language heres a phrase to teach this moron:

timtzotz lehahotcha - go blow your sister