Open Letter to Dr. Laura can still work when debating fundie

Sobbastchianno · Post by **Sobbastchianno** » 2003-07-14 03:11am

I know this is old, but I love it and I would love to hear response to it. This was a letter sent to the "beloved" Dr. Laura Schlessinger about three years back. I use it here only because the argument is revelent to use against fundies today as well.

Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses sex advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that as an observant Orthodox Jew homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance.
The following is an Open Letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your radio show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them
Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific Bible laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? She's 18 and starting University. Will the slave buyer continue to pay for her education by law ?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvement project?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact lenses help?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident that you can help. Thanks again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

What the premise of this open letter to Dr. Laura boils down to is, if you are going to use one of the laws in Leviticus to condemn a type of human behavior, why then is it ok to ignore all other aspects of laws in the SAME BOOK OF THE TORAH/BIBLE?

Any thought?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-07-14 03:55am

Quite old.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-07-14 04:52am

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Quite old.

That was stated in the introduction.

Darth Gojira · Post by **Darth Gojira** » 2003-07-14 08:08am

If it's serious I"m scared, but if it's sarcastic(It LOOKS like a parody) I'm amused to the the extreme

Ex: a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? She's 18 and starting University. Will the slave buyer continue to pay for her education by law ?
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvement project?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact lenses help?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2003-07-14 10:54am

In a couple of the examples: isn't God supposed to be the one doing the smiting? ie. Does the bible really require that you be put to death for cutting hair?

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2003-07-14 11:04am

Good points in that open letter -- are the Old Testament laws yet binding, despite the absence of the theocracy and later kingdom for whom they were intended? And if some of those laws are still binding, then are the punishments for breaking them intended only for Israel, or are they for the entire world?

Acts 15:1-11
1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved."
2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad.
4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
(NIV)

What do you think the above scripture says about the matter?

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-07-14 11:07am

the bigger question Jegs, is if homosexuality which is condemned in the same parts of levitican law as some of these other points is considered an "abomination" and something that is wrong and outlawed by certain religious people, then all the rest of these laws should be valid too in their minds. The entire point of this exercise is to show that all the crap in leviticus doesnt apply to us, and thus homosexuality isnt wrong/immoral thus the religious nuts who execute gay men should go fuck themselves.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2003-07-14 11:12am

jegs2 wrote:Good points in that open letter -- are the Old Testament laws yet binding, despite the absence of the theocracy and later kingdom for whom they were intended? And if some of those laws are still binding, then are the punishments for breaking them intended only for Israel, or are they for the entire world?

There's some holiday (which I forget the details) where God goes through some list of who's gonna die, and if you don't do this particular thing on this day you're going to get it.... so I asked him [edit: friend] why all the non-jews aren't dead. He said that Jews, as God's special people, are held to a higher standard and are required to do certain things that non-jews are not. So from the perspective of a judaism: for a non-jew its probably OK to eat a pig, etc... because you're not "special" anyway.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-07-14 11:14am

Zoink wrote:
jegs2 wrote:Good points in that open letter -- are the Old Testament laws yet binding, despite the absence of the theocracy and later kingdom for whom they were intended? And if some of those laws are still binding, then are the punishments for breaking them intended only for Israel, or are they for the entire world?

There's some holiday (which I forget the details) where God goes through some list of who's gonna die, and if you don't do this particular thing on this day you're going to get it.... so I asked him why all the non-jews aren't dead. He said that the Jews, as God's special people, are held to a higher standard and are required to do certain things that non-jews are not. So from the perspective of a judaism: for a non-jew its probably OK to eat a pig, etc... because you're not "special" anyway.

Which is basically racism. The Old Testament Jews are the original "Master Race" in history. Their conduct in the OT matches that of the later, German, one.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-14 12:00pm

Why can't I own a Canadian?!!!!!

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-07-14 03:49pm

Because Canada pwnz j00!

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-14 03:50pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:Because Canada pwnz j00!

Damn! Horrible truth! GRR

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-07-14 04:31pm

jegs2 wrote:Good points in that open letter -- are the Old Testament laws yet binding, despite the absence of the theocracy and later kingdom for whom they were intended? And if some of those laws are still binding, then are the punishments for breaking them intended only for Israel, or are they for the entire world?

What do you think the above scripture says about the matter?

The answer to your question does not change the basic hypocrisy of someone who uses one of the laws from Leviticus to persecute a group of people while ignoring all the other laws of Leviticus that apply to the hypocrite.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-07-14 09:03pm

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

You know this gives me an entirely new view on the weekend BBQ...

Ciuld we make an ad saying that and have a picture of a good sized charcole grill, with the captian "See even the good book says we should BBQ on weekends"

Sidious · Post by **Sidious** » 2003-07-14 10:03pm

Never seen that before....

Best...letter...ever

Please tell me Dr Laura responded to that.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-07-15 09:10am

Actually, while some Christians may get upset over this kind of letter, it is a very Christian letter to write. It argues that anyone who uses the Old Law against others is a hypocrite, since no one actually follows it to the letter.

Jesus himself made this exact same argument in Matthew 15:1-7 (mind you, he said earlier that "not one word" shall be stricken from the Old Law, leading one to question whether he is a hypocrite himself, but that's another issue).

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-07-15 02:03pm

great stuff

Sobbastchianno · Post by **Sobbastchianno** » 2003-07-16 11:37pm

Sidious wrote:Never seen that before....

Best...letter...ever

Please tell me Dr Laura responded to that.

Can't swear to this, but as far as I know, she has NOT answered this letter (written back in 1999?). I would be interested to see what her responses would have been.

As for whether the Old Testament laws still apply, that depends upon who you are. If you are an Hasidic or an Orthodox Jew, yes, they still do, though the punishments assigned are not carried out (interesting, hey?). If you are a Christian, they do and do not depending upon the issue (at the convenience of the Christian mind you). Yes, there is MUCH hypocracy involved in how "laws" are obeyed when it comes to religion.

As it was said earlier, and I fully agree, if you are not going to follow the entire code, then don't use any part of the code as justification to oppress ANYONE.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-07-18 04:30pm

There are people who take this seriously. They are called Christian Reconstructionists or Theonomists.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Darth Gojira · Post by **Darth Gojira** » 2003-07-19 07:51am

fgalkin wrote:There are people who take this seriously. They are called Christian Reconstructionists or Theonomists.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

How about "idiots"?

Baron Scarpia · Post by **Baron Scarpia** » 2003-07-19 02:37pm

Of course, if Dr. Laura and her ilk were really versed in Old Testament and ancient Jewish law, they'd have to know that Talmudic laws apply solely to the "chosen people," i.e. Jews. Non-Jews are not expected or required to abide by such laws. This is one of the reasons Jews do not seek out converts--gentiles are free of these laws and are better off!

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-07-19 05:14pm

Darth Gojira wrote:
fgalkin wrote:There are people who take this seriously. They are called Christian Reconstructionists or Theonomists.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
How about "idiots"?

That works, too.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Kintaro · Post by **Kintaro** » 2003-07-19 08:17pm

Sobbastchianno wrote:
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

Heheheheheheh, that's going into my sig.

NapoleonGH · Post by **NapoleonGH** » 2003-07-20 11:23pm

Baron Scarpia wrote:Of course, if Dr. Laura and her ilk were really versed in Old Testament and ancient Jewish law, they'd have to know that Talmudic laws apply solely to the "chosen people," i.e. Jews. Non-Jews are not expected or required to abide by such laws. This is one of the reasons Jews do not seek out converts--gentiles are free of these laws and are better off!

too bad we are talking about levitican law, talmudic laws are different and arent included in the bible or the torah but are a separate document all together/.

Sobbastchianno · Post by **Sobbastchianno** » 2003-07-20 11:24pm

fgalkin wrote:There are people who take this seriously. They are called Christian Reconstructionists or Theonomists.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Believe it or not, fgalkin, I also take this very seriously. I have yet to see anyone, Christian or Jew (and I was raised Orthodox) who doesn't ignore some of the laws of Leviticus because in our modern world, they truly are inconvenient. I find it interesting that we feel justified in stating some laws are archaic, but can state the a law in the next verse is still relevant.

I apologize to anyone who is offended by my next statement, but the ONLY thing I found from religion is hypocracy. I am not saying that hypocracy only exists in religion, but it seems to have more than it's fair share of it. I am SO tired of people telling me how to live my life and what I am doing wrong, but still do not live by the laws in the same book that contains the laws that I am supposedly breaking. I am tired of all these pots calling this kettle black.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Open Letter to Dr. Laura can still work when debating fundie

Open Letter to Dr. Laura can still work when debating fundie

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