In the ashes of Judgement Day

[Steven Snyder]

Watching T3 we saw the image of the downed H-K and the tattered American flag flying above it.

This got me to thinking...

Socially speaking what would happen if Judgement Day (or it's equivalent) came to pass and the world got nuked to that level?

Now what I mean by that is that would you try to rebuild your country the way it was before the war, or would you abandon that concept and try something new?

[DPDarkPrimus]

I have a feeling that Utsanomiko and Spanky's house would become a garrison.

[Xenophobe3691]

Really? I'd first start wondering about all the wildlife coming from behind my house to try and eat me. After that? No Clue.

[SyntaxVorlon]

Watch doctor strangelove.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

There would be much looting and squatting, followed by an era of laziness, followed by an era of space aliens.

At least, that's how I'd have it happen.

[RedImperator]

Depends on the state. A small, urbanized state like New Jersey probably will cease to exist as a unified political entity.

This picture forced a page format, so click on the link.

I believe you can see the problem here. Vineland, by the way, is the state's alternate capital last time I checked, so whatever was left of the state government would meet there and would exercise whatever political control it could over the southern part of the state. Most of what you see in the south untouched by the bombs is the Pine Barrens, which are barely inhabited. They would also be nearly impossible to control away from the main roads, and travelers would venture into there at their own peril (I wouldn't want to get lost in the Barrens NOW, let alone after a nuclear war). Depending on the time of year, there could be major population concentrations on the Atlantic coast or the shore could be mostly ghost towns (the second would be ideal, because the state would have virtually uninhabited, intact cities in which to shelter refugees). South Jersey would be separated from Philadelphia by the Delaware river (I'm assuming the Russians would attempt to destroy the bridges across it) and a band of ruined suburbs, so there wouldn't be as many refugees as you might first expect. A bigger problem would be the survivors coming south from the southern fringe of the New York metro area (I say the southern fringe because those further north are dead or trapped behind miles of ruins).

The untouched northwestern part of the state would be mostly cut off from the southeast. All the major highways and railroads run though the blast zones. The majority of surviving state law enforcement personnel would be county sheriffs in the south and the surviving municipal police forces, barely enough to control refugees and prevent the south from completely collapsing into warlordism--there'd be no way to project political power into the northwest from the southeast. Transporting supplies through the center of the state wiould be nearly impossible. That chunk of the state would also be flooded with refugees from the New York metro area. Hopefully, the state of New York would assume responsibility for that area, otherwise it's up to the locals.

The New York metro area would be a debris field. Besides being in general proximity to New York City, there are major industrial facilities there including much of the Northeast Corridor's oil refining capacity. If you've never been up there, it's pretty much wall-to-wall suburbs with dense pockets in Newark, Jersey City, etc. All of that would burn. Any survivors who stayed behind would be limited to small, isolated groups probably scratching out a living looting the ruins. The situation in the Philadelphia metro area would be nearly as bad, though there aren't as many industrial targets and the band of suburbs is narrower.

Central Jersey, mainly the Trenton area, is badly damaged but some towns make it. I presume their allegiance would be to the south, though they'd have a motherfucker of a refugee problem.

In short: the state of New Jersey would be effectively reduced to Cape May, Cumberland, and Atlantic Counties, along with the eastern halves of Gloucester, Salem, and Camden Counties, the southern half of Ocean County, and bits and pieces of Burlington County. The far northern counties would be cut off from the government and would depend on neighboring states for assistance or else they would fall back on their own resources. They might band together to form the state of North Jersey, they might call themselves part of New Jersey but operate independently of the state government in Vineland, they might operate as separate entities, or they might totally break under the weight of refugees fleeing New York and shatter into warring petty kingdoms. Morris, Essex, Hudson, Union, Middlesex, and Monmouth counties would fall into total anarchy, with Essex, Union, and Hudson depopulated entirely.

As time goes on, depending on the general recovery nationwide, one of several things might happen. First, the state eventually reunifies. It could remain part of the United States, it could join a smaller republic composed of other northeastern states, or it could strike out as an independent nation if things were bad enough. Second, it could never reunify. The rump state of New Jersey remains confined to the south, while the north either forms its own state or is absorbed into New York. The south might eventually elect to join (or be forced into) Pennsylvania. The scenarios listed for a reunified state would then apply to the new states, with the ruined borderlands likely disputed. The remains could join (or be conquered by) a totally new political entity which doesn't recognize the old state boundaries. This could happen independently between the two parts, or after they reunify. And finally, the tenuous government in the south evaporates as economic conditions decline to 18th century levels, and the whole things falls apart into independent towns and counties basically operating on their own. The ruins, of course, are never rebuilt and the relatively isolated southern portion of the state begins evolving its own culture and accent independently of the rest of the continent (the northern part fades into New York).

[phongn]

There's also the fallout issue to consider as well - NJ might well be blanketed in it.

[Galvatron]

Watching T3 we saw the image of the downed H-K and the tattered American flag flying above it.

I had issues with that. The brief glimpses of the future that we had in T1 and T2 gave me the feeling that the "worldwide resistance" was too pragmatic and preoccupied with merely surviving to give a shit about outmoded concepts like nationalism.

[Baron Mordo]

Nobody would bomb Canada.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Nobody would bomb Canada.

*The tiny bit of Skynet embedded in your computer makes a note of this, and plans a trajectory to your house*

[Zoink]

Nobody would bomb Canada.

What I read (a long time ago) was that every major city, every airport, and every military base is targeted.

If you just nuked the U.S., the U.S. could just move military assets North and use Canadian airports/bases as staging points. Its all part of the Norad agreements.

[Drooling Iguana]

Yes, Canada would likely become a major player. We have very few locations with a high enough population concentration to be worth nuking, so we'd be mostly untouched, with plenty of land still perfectly habitable.

[NapoleonGH]

Damnit Redimperator, that picture just proved what i have known for a while, in a nuclear war, i am toast (to note look at the pic of NJ then go to the north eastern (top right) corner, move about a centimeter to the west (left) and you got me

[Gil Hamilton]

Hrm... after looking at the PA map on the same site listed above, Pittsburgh is only halfway blown up, since the two outer areas of the bomb blasts hit northing Pittsburgh, but southern and downtown Pittsburgh are actually not hit by anything. Also, large areas of Pennsylvannia which are loosely, but significantly populated are going undestroyed. Pennsylvannia might make it, though it looks like Philedelphia, Scranton and Harrisburg wouldn't be part of the picture.

I've scene a different map though, that has Pittsburgh being hit with greater amounts of firepower, but hey.

[Embracer Of Darkness]

I live near a BNFL (British Nuclear Fuels Ltd.) in England, I'm fucking screwed.

[LadyTevar]

Well... I'd suspected at least one Nuke would be targetting WV.. but this many?
West Virginia

The three around Charleston (State Capital) has nothing to do with it having the Capitol, but rather the Chemical Valley. DuPont, FMC, and Union Carbide all have major plants along the Kanawha River.

The hits along the Western border are more plants: chemical, steel, electric, as well as various dams and locks on the Ohio River. Other than WVU, I'm not sure why Morgantown's being hit... other than the fact it's damn near a suburb of Pittsburg The ones hitting two counties below are probably hitting the FBI's Fingerprinting Unit and anything else there.

In the Northern Panhandle, it looks like Wheeling is getting hit hard.. it's one of WV's industrial centers, and close to Pittsburg as well. The hits to where the Northern Panhandle joins the main state seem to be right where water traffic from Pittsburg would hit the Ohio.

The hits to the Eastern Panhandle are prolly for Camp David and the Federal Armory at Harper's Ferry, as well as whatever's on the Virginia side of the border there. The hit East and slightly South of Charleston? More than likely it's the Greenbrier Resort, now publicly known as a Cold War retreat for Congress. The rest of the hits scattered about? I've no clue, other than possible government facilities.

What partly reassure me is the huge tracks of untouched land in the middle of the state. Twenty counties in the middle of the state, that happen to make up most of the farming lands, as well as delinate the path of the Appalachian Mountains. Fallout might be a problem, as winds are usually from the West, piling clouds and storms up against the mountains. Still, the chances of survival in those areas will be high, since those are traditionally areas known for Redneck Hillbilly hunter/farmers. In other worlds.. "A Country Boy can Survive!"

[Seggybop]

Side note:
Look at the North Dakota map. CARPET NUKING. The same for all the other places with missile silos. GG to anyone near there.

[RedImperator]

Nobody would bomb Canada.

You're out of your mind. Canada is a NATO member. All your major cities, whatever army, navy, and air force bases you have, any airports capable of handling strategic bombers, and important industrial targets including the oil facilities in the north are nuked just as hard as the targets in the United Staes. Even if you weren't a NATO member, the Russians would probably nuke you just because you're on good terms with and in close proximity to us.

Hrm... after looking at the PA map on the same site listed above, Pittsburgh is only halfway blown up, since the two outer areas of the bomb blasts hit northing Pittsburgh, but southern and downtown Pittsburgh are actually not hit by anything. Also, large areas of Pennsylvannia which are loosely, but significantly populated are going undestroyed. Pennsylvannia might make it, though it looks like Philedelphia, Scranton and Harrisburg wouldn't be part of the picture.

I've scene a different map though, that has Pittsburgh being hit with greater amounts of firepower, but hey.

Those maps are supposedly based on FEMA projections of likely targets in an all-out nuclear war. I'm not really sure why downtown Pittsburgh isn't hit. I would assume, even if the map says otherwise, that a few warheads are coming down directly over the city. It's too big a target.

There's also the fallout issue to consider as well - NJ might well be blanketed in it.

The prevailing winds blow west to east, so all that shit you see in the New York metro area blows out to sea more than likely. The strikes on Philadelphia would be a bigger concern. Most targets on the east coast, however, are soft targets that could be destroyed more effectively with airbursts, which produce little fallout. A much, much bigger problem would be the stuff carried by the prevailing winds from the missile silos in the midwest--those would all be groundbursts and the fallout would carry to the east coast. The midwest is thoroughly fucked by the fallout, but if we get a lucky break we won't get much of it here.

[kojikun]

The prevailing winds blow west to east, so all that shit you see in the New York metro area blows out to sea more than likely.

It blows right over Long Island! Get out a map, the island is right east of the city. Ask anyone from the island.

[RedImperator]

The prevailing winds blow west to east, so all that shit you see in the New York metro area blows out to sea more than likely.

It blows right over Long Island! Get out a map, the island is right east of the city. Ask anyone from the island.

Projected targets in New York state

From what I can see, there will be very few people left on Long Island to worry about fallout.

[Gil Hamilton]

Those maps are supposedly based on FEMA projections of likely targets in an all-out nuclear war. I'm not really sure why downtown Pittsburgh isn't hit. I would assume, even if the map says otherwise, that a few warheads are coming down directly over the city. It's too big a target.

No kidding, considering how vital to our industry Pittsburgh was when those maps were drawn, not to mention it's strategic location at the three rivers. The estimate a saw had no less that seven warheads aimed at Pittsburgh itself, just to kill out steel industry.

[RedImperator]

No kidding, considering how vital to our industry Pittsburgh was when those maps were drawn, not to mention it's strategic location at the three rivers. The estimate a saw had no less that seven warheads aimed at Pittsburgh itself, just to kill out steel industry.

The projections I've seen for the Philadelphia area call for one 750kt warhead for each major oil refinery. Probably Pittsburgh would get one warhead targeted at each major mill, on top of what comes down over downtown just to kill people and break things.

[Mitth`raw`nuruodo]

http://www.ki4u.com/nuclearsurvival/states/fl.jpg

See that group of 'em to the right of orlando? I'm in the middle of those, with more all around me. I'd have pretty much no chance. I guess that's a consequence of living by an Air Force Base (Patrick), the Kennedy Space Center, and an airport (Merritt Island Airport, doesn't take many big planes, but it probably could, so it gets a bomb)

A lot of the areas (in Central FL) not getting bombed are inhabited, so not really any place for the survivors to go. I dunno about north or south FL.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The prevailing winds blow west to east, so all that shit you see in the New York metro area blows out to sea more than likely.

It blows right over Long Island! Get out a map, the island is right east of the city. Ask anyone from the island.

Projected targets in New York state

From what I can see, there will be very few people left on Long Island to worry about fallout.

Ouch, poor Buffalo got 4 nukes!

[RedImperator]

Ouch, poor Buffalo got 4 nukes!

One or two are undoubtedly for the hydro stations nearby, and one might have been for the big Bethlehem Steel complex (depends on if enough of it is left to restart production there). In its heyday, Buffalo would have gotten a lot more.