Shoot To Wound?

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-07-22 09:42pm

Why don't cops shoot to wound? I've read several news reportd of cops putting 16 bullets in someone threatening them with a screwdriver. Come on...pop someone in the kneecap, they'll drop the weapon.

Surely, cops are TRAINED in the proper use of the firearm. Shooting someone in a non-vital area would seem to ME much more preferable than killing someone. And what the hell are those batons for?

I worked graveyard at an all night convenience store, and one cop used to come in during his rounds to shoot the bull. He told me that anyone confronting him in a boxing stance, or martial arts stance, is considered to be threatening the life of a police officer with a deadly weapon. He can shoot them dead if he feels his life is threatened. Yow.

TheFeniX · Post by **TheFeniX** » 2003-07-22 09:47pm

Cops sometimes will if they feel they have a clean shot. But most police shoot outs are spur of the moment and both the cop and criminal are moving. Personally if a guy was attacking me at close range with a screwdriver, I'd put every round into his chest. I'm not risking my life to save some scumbag who shouldn't be attacking a cop (or anyone for that matter) in the first place.

Legs and arms are smaller targets than the nice big torso and in combat it's much easier to hit.

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-07-22 09:53pm

If a guy is dumb enough to attack a cop with a knife or anything,he deserve to be shot,but if a cop is a trigger happy nutcase he should be expelled from the police force,like that idiot in the 1980s who shot a black kid in the back while he was running away,his excuse was he fired a warning shot...........in the direction of the kid.

cop name Alan Gosset kid name Anthony Griffin.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-07-22 10:07pm

If a gun is used, it must be for the officer's own life, or the life of someone else. If you can shoot to wound, then there was not a sufficient threat to justify using the weapon.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-07-22 10:17pm

Shooting to wound if for the movies. It can get a cop killed or a bystander killed. If you want to stop people with knives its okay to develop less than lethal alternatives, but once the decision has been made to use a gun it must be to kill.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-07-22 10:25pm

TrailerParkJawa wrote:Shooting to wound if for the movies. It can get a cop killed or a bystander killed. If you want to stop people with knives its okay to develop less than lethal alternatives, but once the decision has been made to use a gun it must be to kill.

Metal Storm's O'Dwyer Law Enforcement Handgun prototype...

4 barrels, 2 lethal stacks, 2 "bean-bag" stacks.

Oh yes, firing beanbag rounds at a rate of more than 100,000 rounds per minute per barrel?

Well, its non-lethal, but my god is the dickhead on the receiving end isn't going to be a happy person.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-07-22 10:27pm

weemadando wrote:
TrailerParkJawa wrote:Shooting to wound if for the movies. It can get a cop killed or a bystander killed. If you want to stop people with knives its okay to develop less than lethal alternatives, but once the decision has been made to use a gun it must be to kill.
Metal Storm's O'Dwyer Law Enforcement Handgun prototype...

4 barrels, 2 lethal stacks, 2 "bean-bag" stacks.

Oh yes, firing beanbag rounds at a rate of more than 100,000 rounds per minute per barrel?

Well, its non-lethal, but my god is the dickhead on the receiving end isn't going to be a happy person.

One of the police agencies down in the Los Angeles area developed a paintball that is filled with a liquid that is so foul smelling most people double over and retch. Giving the cops time to wrestle them down.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-07-22 10:40pm

TrailerParkJawa wrote:
One of the police agencies down in the Los Angeles area developed a paintball that is filled with a liquid that is so foul smelling most people double over and retch. Giving the cops time to wrestle them down.

IIRC they wanted to make a 40mm variant of that for riot control and crowd dispersal. Nothing like a mexican wave of technicolour yawning to break up an angry mob.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-07-22 10:41pm

Lord Poe wrote:Why don't cops shoot to wound? I've read several news reportd of cops putting 16 bullets in someone threatening them with a screwdriver. Come on...pop someone in the kneecap, they'll drop the weapon.

Because shooting to wound is the single dumbest idea ever when it really matters. You can't reliably hit some one in a non-lethal manner under anything approaching realistic conditions. Trying to just invites a disasterous fuck up. The idea when a cop fires is there's an immediate, deadly threat so fucking it up means people will die.

And I'm not going to argue what the appropriate level of force is. But with a semi automatic pistol and a couple of cops it's easy to get 16 bullets or more in. Bullets rarely drop some one immediately.

Lord Poe wrote:Surely, cops are TRAINED in the proper use of the firearm. Shooting someone in a non-vital area would seem to ME much more preferable than killing someone. And what the hell are those batons for?

It is but you can't do it. The easiest places to hit also happen to be the lethal areas. And batons/night sticks are useful in subduing a resisting arrestee, not ending a standoff. They're more for controlling those that are in custody but still resisting.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2003-07-22 10:46pm

Lord Poe wrote:Why don't cops shoot to wound? I've read several news reportd of cops putting 16 bullets in someone threatening them with a screwdriver. Come on...pop someone in the kneecap, they'll drop the weapon.

Surely, cops are TRAINED in the proper use of the firearm. Shooting someone in a non-vital area would seem to ME much more preferable than killing someone. And what the hell are those batons for?

Because cops aren't Navy SEALS or Delta Force commandos. Cops don't have the time to train 10 hours a day every day of the week. Cops don't fire 2000+ rounds of handgun ammo every week training to hit stationary and moving index card sized targets at any range. Cops aren't trained much in hand to hand and baton combat. And because shooting to wound can fail for many reasons, a perp on PCP's can have his leg shot off and still kill you before he drops. Unless the cops are as good and well trained as say, SEAL Team 6, shooting to wound just ain't a feasibly option.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-07-23 12:51am

Psychologically, once you start opening fire on a target, it can be fairly difficult to stop firing. Adrenaline and a host of other physiological responses triggered by FoF tend to make the automatic response to keep shooting. That's part of why people have to train for so long before learning to count their rounds during a fire-fight, and in all honesty if someone was coming after me I wouldn't sit there and wait for him to start swinging before I unloaded into him. That's just me.

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2003-07-23 12:57am

aerius wrote: Unless the cops are as good and well trained as say, SEAL Team 6, shooting to wound just ain't a feasibly option.

SEAL Team 6 doesnt exist. <shrugs> They exist only in the world of Counter-Strike.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-07-23 01:06am

SolidSnake wrote:
aerius wrote: Unless the cops are as good and well trained as say, SEAL Team 6, shooting to wound just ain't a feasibly option.
SEAL Team 6 doesnt exist. <shrugs> They exist only in the world of Counter-Strike.

Really? Then what was Richard Marcinko doing?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-07-23 01:14am

I believe a quote from "Reno 911!" is in order:

"People ask me, 'Do you shoot to kill or do you shoot to maim?' and I think that's missing the point that you get to shoot somebody."

Couldn't resist.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-07-23 01:23am

weemadando wrote:
TrailerParkJawa wrote:
One of the police agencies down in the Los Angeles area developed a paintball that is filled with a liquid that is so foul smelling most people double over and retch. Giving the cops time to wrestle them down.
IIRC they wanted to make a 40mm variant of that for riot control and crowd dispersal. Nothing like a mexican wave of technicolour yawning to break up an angry mob.

Oh, that sounds like hella phun! I'll bet it consists of Hydrogen Sulfide and Mercaptans.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-07-23 01:26am

Hmmm...after reading all your responses, I must assume most of you would have sympathy for L.A. cops who are demonized for shooting a homeless woman who lunged at a cop with a screwdriver, or the young woman in a car who was woken up, and her immediate response was to grab the gun sitting beside her?

What about the guy that reached for his wallet (allegedly) in New York, while surrounded by cops, who continually ordered him to show his hands? Bruce Springsteen wrote a song about it ("American Skin - 41 Shots")

I can tell you, in L.A, according to the L.A. Times and the local news, the people that are continually on these programs disagree with you, and call the cops killers and racists. Thoughts?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-23 01:43am

Lord Poe wrote:Hmmm...after reading all your responses, I must assume most of you would have sympathy for L.A. cops who are demonized for shooting a homeless woman who lunged at a cop with a screwdriver, or the young woman in a car who was woken up, and her immediate response was to grab the gun sitting beside her?

I would. No one in this world is under the obligation to risk his own life unnecessarily. And the notion of "shooting to wound" is highly questionable; it is extremely difficult to stop a truly aggressive person, and there is no such thing as a surefire manstopper. Even a bullet which mortally wounds someone may not slow him down long enough to stop him from killing or injuring you before he expires from his injuries. Perinquus has written about this on numerous occasions, as an active-duty police officer, and he has given real-life examples to support his assertions.

What about the guy that reached for his wallet (allegedly) in New York, while surrounded by cops, who continually ordered him to show his hands? Bruce Springsteen wrote a song about it ("American Skin - 41 Shots")

Maybe he shouldn't have been so fucking stupid as to reach into his coat while surrounded by cops who told him to put his hands in the air. In that case, stupidity was a summary death penalty offense

I can tell you, in L.A, according to the L.A. Times and the local news, the people that are continually on these programs disagree with you, and call the cops killers and racists. Thoughts?

They are unable to put themselves in the cops' shoes. I reiterate that people watch too many goddamned movies (perhaps this is a particular problem in LA) and they actually buy into the movies' bullshit depiction of how a cop should behave (you know, idiotic things like throwing his gun away if a criminal grabs a hostage and tells him to). Cops, by nature, put themselves at risk in order to protect the public. But despite the common movie image, they are not obligated to elevate a perp's personal safety above their own.

Hasler · Post by **Hasler** » 2003-07-23 02:05am

Shooting to wound is stupid there are to many factors that go into such as clothing will you strike your target our just hit pants and the fact that if they a hyped on adrenilin a mortal wound dosent always bring them down let alone a shot to arm or leg. To make a leg shot really affective you have to hit bone or tear through a vital tendon or ligament.

Now as for cops putting 16 into a person if you ask the cops they will swear they shot maybe 3 times. This is due to the parasympathetic nervous system. When you are suprised with a life threating situation it takes over and you act out of pure conditioning. Basically you pull aim and fire till your target goes down.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2003-07-23 02:56am

TrailerParkJawa wrote:Shooting to wound if for the movies. It can get a cop killed or a bystander killed. If you want to stop people with knives its okay to develop less than lethal alternatives, but once the decision has been made to use a gun it must be to kill.

And if they're black, it can also be a wallet, or a spatula, in front of the person's own house.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-23 02:59am

SyntaxVorlon wrote:
TrailerParkJawa wrote:Shooting to wound if for the movies. It can get a cop killed or a bystander killed. If you want to stop people with knives its okay to develop less than lethal alternatives, but once the decision has been made to use a gun it must be to kill.
And if they're black, it can also be a wallet, or a spatula, in front of the person's own house.

If the cops tell you to put your hands in the air and you reach into your jacket instead, then quite frankly, you deserve every bullet you get. While I do sympathize with stories of black harassment in the states, most of these "unwarranted police shooting" stories tend to fall into this category: people refusing to obey the cops even when the guns are drawn.

Hint: when a cop has his gun out, it's because he is in a highly agitated state and concerned for his own safety. Treat him as you would a live grenade.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-07-23 03:16am

Darth Wong wrote:If the cops tell you to put your hands in the air and you reach into your jacket instead, then quite frankly, you deserve every bullet you get. While I do sympathize with stories of black harassment in the states, most of these "unwarranted police shooting" stories tend to fall into this category: people refusing to obey the cops even when the guns are drawn.

Hint: when a cop has his gun out, it's because he is in a highly agitated state and concerned for his own safety. Treat him as you would a live grenade.

Absolutely. I've been stopped by the cops a few times. I've had friends in the car and told them to put their hands on their laps, and I put both of mine on the steering wheel. This immediately deflates the tension in the air. It also helps if you don't have an asshole with you that think's he'll give the cops an attitude. Don't be an idiot, do what they tell you to do until they lose interest.

I know its difficult to believe that cops only harass minorities, but its just not true. Unless you look like Hitler youth, with a short haircut and dressed appropriately, you're more likely to be stopped. You don't have to be black. I know, believe me. I've been stopped a few times, was very polite, kept my hands in plain view, wasn't a smartass. You've gotto be smart in these situations when someone with the authority to ruin your life one way or another wants to interact with you.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2003-07-23 03:23am

Darth Wong wrote:
SyntaxVorlon wrote:
TrailerParkJawa wrote:Shooting to wound if for the movies. It can get a cop killed or a bystander killed. If you want to stop people with knives its okay to develop less than lethal alternatives, but once the decision has been made to use a gun it must be to kill.
And if they're black, it can also be a wallet, or a spatula, in front of the person's own house.
If the cops tell you to put your hands in the air and you reach into your jacket instead, then quite frankly, you deserve every bullet you get. While I do sympathize with stories of black harassment in the states, most of these "unwarranted police shooting" stories tend to fall into this category: people refusing to obey the cops even when the guns are drawn.

Hint: when a cop has his gun out, it's because he is in a highly agitated state and concerned for his own safety. Treat him as you would a live grenade.

When a woman is crossing the street with a spatula and shot because a cop thought it was a gun there's a problem with the system.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-23 03:25am

SyntaxVorlon wrote:When a woman is crossing the street with a spatula and shot because a cop thought it was a gun there's a problem with the system.

Where did this take place? Details, please.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-07-23 03:26am

http://www.theonion.com/onion3516/nypd_apologizes.html

gravity · Post by **gravity** » 2003-07-23 08:38am

I don't think cops have the right to kill someone just because it looked like they might be reaching for a gun. Unless they obviously have a gun, or a gun-shaped object held pointing through their jacket, or whatever, they cops should be prosecuted.
If a cop is so jumpy they need to kill someone because of the shadow of a threat, they should quit.

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