genders

[Enforcer Talen]

are they completely unmixable, in that they think utterly differently, or is that just a culture thing, and genders dont really matter?

[Darth Wong]

are they completely unmixable, in that they think utterly differently, or is that just a culture thing, and genders dont really matter?

Genders think and act and are built differently, and that's why they exist. The entire evolutionary imperative for a multi-gender species is to increase the potential species variation in characteristics without causing speciation.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

are they completely unmixable, in that they think utterly differently, or is that just a culture thing, and genders dont really matter?

It's culture, almost entirely. There are obviously some inherent physical differences--but the effects of these have been greatly exagerrated by societal organization in favour of the segregation of gender roles. The simple reality of it is that given the chance, men and women will behave exactly the same in the same situations, and this progression is only retarded by the remnants of the old societal organization--the only differences are the physical ones and they don't provide much hindrance at all to this, since some at least balance out and others can be overcome.

[Joe]

Well, gender does matter, but that doesn't mean they are unmixable. There are some areas where men and women are just fundamentally different; men are better at being violent jerks, for example, due to hormones and such.

[kojikun]

Sex is between the legs, gender is between the ears.

Sex is an absolute, you have a dick you're male, you have a pussy you're female. But gender is fluid. Gender tends to be culturally defined. In America, only women wear skirts, but in old Scotland, Rome, and Greece, the kilt was for men.

[Stormbringer]

Sex is between the legs, gender is between the ears.

Sex is an absolute, you have a dick you're male, you have a pussy you're female. But gender is fluid. Gender tends to be culturally defined. In America, only women wear skirts, but in old Scotland, Rome, and Greece, the kilt was for men.

You're talking about gender roles. That's different from sex/gender (which are one and the same thing) and it does differ from culture to culture.


Men and women do think and act differently. Even taking into account gender roles there's a difference. Sex requires a difference between them, it's just a fact. The biological roles gaurentee that.

[kojikun]

Men and women do think and act differently. Even taking into account gender roles there's a difference. Sex requires a difference between them, it's just a fact. The biological roles gaurentee that.

Thats also between the ears tho. How you think is based on a great many things more then jut sex. Biology is a very small part of gender, but is a very large part of sex.

[Darth Wong]

If gender is entirely a cultural construct, try flooding your body with either testosterone or estrogen and see what happens to your behaviour.

Your brain is a biological organ, just like every other organ in your body, and the ratios of testosterone and estrogen which are characteristic of males and females do affect behaviour. All of the politically correct axioms in the world won't change that fact, which has been experimentally verified.

[kojikun]

If gender is entirely a cultural construct, try flooding your body with either testosterone or estrogen and see what happens to your behaviour.

Your brain is a biological organ, just like every other organ in your body, and the ratios of testosterone and estrogen which are characteristic of males and females do affect behaviour. All of the politically correct axioms in the world won't change that fact, which has been experimentally verified.

True, but gender is more then just that. Gender is also what is associated with those things. A woman may think differently, but theres an entire assortment of things that are added on because of socialities. but regardless, gender IS in your brain, sex IS between your legs.

[Dark Hellion]

Gender is all in how you think, women think with their brains.
Us men think with our penises, and unforunately for you women, the penis ain't too bright.

[Frank Hipper]

Twin boys in Canada, circa 1966, recieved circumscisions.

One twin's penis was destroyed in the operation.

Recent "insight" into the Nature vs Nurture argument by a prominant Psychologist led to that boy having surgical alterations giving him a vagina, and a lifetime of hormone therapy.

He was raised as a she.

Despite claims to the contrary by the responible psychologist, this was NOT a success. The PBS Frontline special I saw on it featured interviews with his mother, a grief stricken wreck, and the guy this was done to. He's had an extremely unhappy life, he KNEW he wasn't a girl.
Today, he's had recunstructive surgery to give him a penis, is married, and much happier living as a man.

Gender is something you're born with, the person I'm talking about recieved his medical alterations in early infancy, yet somehow knew he wasn't a girl, despite being raised as one, and recieving reinforcement of a feminine identity from his earliest development.

[Darth Wong]

Twin boys in Canada, circa 1966, recieved circumscisions.

One twin's penis was destroyed in the operation.

It's surprising that doesn't happen more often, given the small size of an infant's penis and the fact that a large portion of it is chopped off in the procedure. Yet another testimony to the health benefits of circumcision

[kojikun]

i wish i werent circumcised

[Howedar]

I wasn't. My parents were asked if I was to be circumcised. They asked the doctors if there was any medical reason to do so. There wasn't, so I wasn't.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

If gender is entirely a cultural construct, try flooding your body with either testosterone or estrogen and see what happens to your behaviour.

Your brain is a biological organ, just like every other organ in your body, and the ratios of testosterone and estrogen which are characteristic of males and females do affect behaviour. All of the politically correct axioms in the world won't change that fact, which has been experimentally verified.

Yes, for instance, that testosterone must be converted into estrogen to work? Or that at some points of emotional duress, levels of testosterone are lower in the male body than in the female body? The research has indicated a far more complex subject than some reductionists try to claim.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Twin boys in Canada, circa 1966, recieved circumscisions.

One twin's penis was destroyed in the operation.

Recent "insight" into the Nature vs Nurture argument by a prominant Psychologist led to that boy having surgical alterations giving him a vagina, and a lifetime of hormone therapy.

He was raised as a she.

Despite claims to the contrary by the responible psychologist, this was NOT a success. The PBS Frontline special I saw on it featured interviews with his mother, a grief stricken wreck, and the guy this was done to. He's had an extremely unhappy life, he KNEW he wasn't a girl.
Today, he's had recunstructive surgery to give him a penis, is married, and much happier living as a man.

Gender is something you're born with, the person I'm talking about recieved his medical alterations in early infancy, yet somehow knew he wasn't a girl, despite being raised as one, and recieving reinforcement of a feminine identity from his earliest development.

Interestingly, this very case was brought up in a book I have on the subject of gender as a primarily cultural identity; I'll dredge through it and post the counter-argument that is made.

[Darth Wong]

Yes, for instance, that testosterone must be converted into estrogen to work?

Could you please explain, then, why testosterone produces immediate behavioural and physical changes which are completely different from those of estrogen?

Or that at some points of emotional duress, levels of testosterone are lower in the male body than in the female body?

Points of emotional duress are not normal conditions by definition. The natural state of men is to have much higher testosterone levels than women under normal conditions, and normal conditions are what govern the majority of a person's conduct.

The research has indicated a far more complex subject than some reductionists try to claim.

Complex, yes. But in such a manner as to lead to a conclusion diameterically opposed to the conclusions of the aforementioned experiments, no.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Essentially, my argument is based around the idea that the majority of behavioural differences in the genders is caused by long-defined socio-cultural roles which were originally created with the onset of agrarian civilization as a stratified Societal Organization. This is only now being upset in the last two centuries and will still take a long time to die and be overthrown into something else.

Naturally, an analysis of Hunter-Gatherer Societal Organization--that which preceded Agrarian Societal Organization--is heavily anecdotal, but we do have observed examples of some Hunter-Gatherer Societies in which equality of the genders existed. Besides this, we know of situations and certain facts which suggest ideas of a nurture-based behavioural response for females is a bias of agrarian modes of thinking and not accurate for the actual programming of the female mind; or, more precisely, that very little such programming exists for either the male or the female and much is really cultural overlay.

I will be quite pleased to go into all of this in detail.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Could you please explain, then, why testosterone produces immediate behavioural and physical changes which are completely different from those of estrogen?

Testosterone/Estrogen Conversion and nature of Estrogen

There's the first article I can find which seems to explain the process decently.

[Darth Wong]

Could you please explain, then, why testosterone produces immediate behavioural and physical changes which are completely different from those of estrogen?

Testosterone/Estrogen Conversion and nature of Estrogen

There's the first article I can find which seems to explain the process decently.

That article does not claim that testosterone and estrogen have identical effects when present in the system; only that testosterone is a chemical precursor to other hormones. The point remains that testosterone has well-documented effects on human physiology and psychology which are much different than those of estrogen.

[Darth Wong]

Essentially, my argument is based around the idea that the majority of behavioural differences in the genders is caused by long-defined socio-cultural roles which were originally created with the onset of agrarian civilization as a stratified Societal Organization. This is only now being upset in the last two centuries and will still take a long time to die and be overthrown into something else.

That is a popular idea, but there are so many structural and behavioural differences between females even from birth that it is extremely difficult to support. People who believe in this "boys and girls only act that way because of socialization" nonsense have obviously never been parents. Even the rate at which fine motor skills develop is markedly different between boys and girls. Neurophysiological development rates are also different: an early history which will have obvious effects on behaviour even if none of the other factors come into play.

Naturally, an analysis of Hunter-Gatherer Societal Organization--that which preceded Agrarian Societal Organization--is heavily anecdotal, but we do have observed examples of some Hunter-Gatherer Societies in which equality of the genders existed.

Equal status does not indicate interchangeable nature.

Besides this, we know of situations and certain facts which suggest ideas of a nurture-based behavioural response for females is a bias of agrarian modes of thinking and not accurate for the actual programming of the female mind; or, more precisely, that very little such programming exists for either the male or the female and much is really cultural overlay.

The existence of your tits says otherwise. Females have adapted to nurture children.

I will be quite pleased to go into all of this in detail.

Naturally

[haas mark]

To answer the author's question, gender can be defined as a mental thing (as in transgenderedness), however, it is also defined biologically. Gender is not (IMO) a culture thing, because in any given culture, you can end up with someone that is of one gender, but may actually be a transgendered person. However, you also must think about androgyny and hermaphrodism, which are biological defects. In this case, gender can be defined by society and culture and upbringing, but with modern-day tech, the hermaphroditic's parents can choose at birth which sex the child will be, and for androgynous children, I am sure that they could choose to be whichever they wanted, but would more than likely follow the biological path that had been set for them.

~ver

[The Duchess of Zeon]

That article does not claim that testosterone and estrogen have identical effects when present in the system; only that testosterone is a chemical precursor to other hormones. The point remains that testosterone has well-documented effects on human physiology and psychology which are much different than those of estrogen.

It seemed to me it say it was a precursor to one of the estrogenics; which would support what the book said (I'll have to drag up the reference to that). Unfortunately I can't find anything more scientific on that so far. Google just drags up countless testosterone supplement drudge-sites of even less value. Well, a bit, then.

[Darth Wong]

It seemed to me it say it was a precursor to one of the estrogenics; which would support what the book said (I'll have to drag up the reference to that). Unfortunately I can't find anything more scientific on that so far. Google just drags up countless testosterone supplement drudge-sites of even less value. Well, a bit, then.

The following passage from that link is important:

So where does testosterone the "king" of the powerful hormones fit in to this schema. It is a "masculine" hormone of higher species that has specific receptors and effects. Testosterone can either activate androgen receptors, AR, or be converted to estradiol to activate estrogen receptors!

Note how it states clearly that testosterone has specific effects on human physiology; the fact that it can act as an estrogen precursor does not remove its unique attributes. Its ability to activate androgen receptors, for example, is not shared by estrogen, and androgen is important for muscle development.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The existence of your tits says otherwise. Females have adapted to nurture children.

There's a difference between a physical and a mental adaptation--and I'm arguing that this supposed nurture-oriented mental adaptation doesn't exist, or at least if it does it doesn't dictate behavioural roles. There's to much evidence for that. (Widespread child exposure during the Roman Empire would seem to be a heavy argument alone--why did this happen, quite willingly, at that, if women exist only to raise children? It was a large-scale cultural phenomenom that defies this so-called genetic predetermination towards childcare.. And there are, of course, many others I can cite.)