Nova Effects

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-08-12 12:22am

For a story I've been thinking about in my head:

Would the effects of a sun going nova be felt instantly on a planet in its system. For the sake of example we will rely on Earth and the sun as the prime examples. If the sun went Nova would we feel it somehow right away or would the blast, shockwave, light effects all take 8 minutes to reach Earth?

In essence would Earth get to live an additonal eight minutes when a sun goes nova?

Also related to this is the effects on gravity in the immediate system. In the story the FTL drive relies on very complex calculations in order to intiate a jump, including very precise measurements of gravity wells, etc. If the sun goes Nova are the effects on the local gravity well instantaenous or localized around the blast. I guess is there a gravity shockwave also limited to light speed?

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-08-12 12:23am

Im no expert, but I think it would be 8 minutes before we notice anything.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-12 12:28am

Stravo wrote:For a story I've been thinking about in my head:

Would the effects of a sun going nova be felt instantly on a planet in its system. For the sake of example we will rely on Earth and the sun as the prime examples. If the sun went Nova would we feel it somehow right away or would the blast, shockwave, light effects all take 8 minutes to reach Earth?

We'd have a few million years while the Sun collapses against internal pressure from residual heat before it compresses to the point where it can ignite a higher-energy fusion reaction and hurl off its outer shell.

In essence would Earth get to live an additonal eight minutes when a sun goes nova?

If we're talking about a freakish nova that starts at the surface for no conceivable reason and hurls out material, we'd have minutes or hours for various effects to reach us. You could be looking right at the Sun (through welding goggles, of course) and not notice anything for at least 8 minutes.

Also related to this is the effects on gravity in the immediate system. In the story the FTL drive relies on very complex calculations in order to intiate a jump, including very precise measurements of gravity wells, etc. If the sun goes Nova are the effects on the local gravity well instantaenous or localized around the blast. I guess is there a gravity shockwave also limited to light speed?

Everything is theoretically limited to lightspeed.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-08-12 12:30am

Wouldn't the sun undergo some radical changes before going nova?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-08-12 12:32am

I'm thinking of a Nova bomb type situation like in Andromeda, essentially a weapon or reaction that just causes a sun to explode instantly, not a natural nova, sorry for the confusion on that issue.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-12 12:35am

Stravo wrote:I'm thinking of a Nova bomb type situation like in Andromeda, essentially a weapon or reaction that just causes a sun to explode instantly, not a natural nova, sorry for the confusion on that issue.

In most of these sci-fi "supernova" situations, a huge coronal mass ejection is identical to a nova for all practical intents and purposes. But it begs the question of why they would bother using a Sun at all, since the energy requirement for a weapon which would hurl off a huge chunk of the photosphere is vastly larger than the amount of energy that would impact upon the target (due to dispersion), so it would make more sense to simply fire the weapon itself at the target.

All sci-fi supernova weapons rely on an artificially induced natural supernova, but the writers are too fucking ignorant to realize that it just doesn't work that way.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-08-12 12:44am

I was thinking of it as a trap set by an ancient race so that when their enemies entered the system to plunder the resources of their world, poof up goes the primary and the enemy cannot make a jump because sudden shifts in the gravity well won't allow them to jump. Maybe just makng the planet blow up would be a better idea.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-12 12:48am

Stravo wrote:I was thinking of it as a trap set by an ancient race so that when their enemies entered the system to plunder the resources of their world, poof up goes the primary and the enemy cannot make a jump because sudden shifts in the gravity well won't allow them to jump. Maybe just makng the planet blow up would be a better idea.

A planetary explosion wouldn't do much to the gravity well in the area.

Perhaps, for extra perversity, you could have some kind of hideously powerful spacetime distortion generators which begins slowly compressing the planet to the size of a pinhead, at which point it will become a black hole. The massive spacetime distortion produced by these generators would keep them in-system, and the peril of falling into the gravity well would be a good plot device for them to require a change of underwear.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-08-12 12:55am

Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:I was thinking of it as a trap set by an ancient race so that when their enemies entered the system to plunder the resources of their world, poof up goes the primary and the enemy cannot make a jump because sudden shifts in the gravity well won't allow them to jump. Maybe just makng the planet blow up would be a better idea.
A planetary explosion wouldn't do much to the gravity well in the area.

Perhaps, for extra perversity, you could have some kind of hideously powerful spacetime distortion generators which begins slowly compressing the planet to the size of a pinhead, at which point it will become a black hole. The massive spacetime distortion produced by these generators would keep them in-system, and the peril of falling into the gravity well would be a good plot device for them to require a change of underwear.

You know everytime I have these discussions I always wonder whether I made a bad choice not majoring in science now that my passion in writing is sci fi I have such fucking gaps in my knowledge. Everytime I write something I have this vision of the folks on SD.Net sitting in judgement and having a ball with the science gaffes (No not a bad thing, I would laugh along)

Great idea, considering the tech level of this dead race that is completely possible...and nasty.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-08-12 01:00am

stravo, go pic up a few good science textbooks. you might be able to use them as references.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-08-12 02:36am

Darth Wong wrote:All sci-fi supernova weapons rely on an artificially induced natural supernova, but the writers are too fucking ignorant to realize that it just doesn't work that way.

Doesn't the nova-bombs work so that they turn the gravity thats keeping the sun intact into a repelling force instead?
Wouldn't that cause the star to blow apart, albeit not in a true nova, but... y'know

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-08-12 05:00am

Larry Niven wrote a short story somewhat along these lines back in 1968 or thereabouts: "Inconstant Moon". The characters in it first notice the preternatural brightness of the moon on a clear night. One of them figures out what's going on and what's coming their way, and he and his girlfriend have enough time to prepare for their own survival.

BTW, a lot of people, SF writers (mostly television hacks) included, confuse the terms "nova" and "supernova". The difference is technical but an important one. The latter is the accurate term for a supermassive star actually blowing itself apart. The former however more properly describes the flaring of variable stars —particularly irregular variables (Wolf-Rayet stars being the most extreme examples).

You could, like Niven, generate a fairly good and compelling story about the day it's discovered that our sun is just a bit more variable than anyone ever suspected, and without recourse to action by evil aliens or ancient superweapons from a long-ago interstellar war.

As for the science, some basic research would be sufficent to at least suspend disbelief in most readers. And the focus shouldn't be on the technobabble but the human drama.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-08-12 05:07am

His Divine Shadow wrote:Doesn't the nova-bombs work so that they turn the gravity thats keeping the sun intact into a repelling force instead?
Wouldn't that cause the star to blow apart, albeit not in a true nova, but... y'know

It's useless to try to work it out. The Andromeda nova bombs are just goofy-talk devices.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-08-12 05:26am

Patrick Degan wrote:It's useless to try to work it out. The Andromeda nova bombs are just goofy-talk devices.

Actually, I think it's said thats this is what they are, gravity inversers.
If I am right one can imagine it like a large thermonuclear explosion, kept in check by it's own gravity, when that turns to a repelling force, well then it just ought to blow apart like a big bomb.

ClaysGhost · Post by **ClaysGhost** » 2003-08-12 05:47am

Patrick Degan wrote: BTW, a lot of people, SF writers (mostly television hacks) included, confuse the terms "nova" and "supernova". The difference is technical but an important one. The latter is the accurate term for a supermassive star actually blowing itself apart. The former however more properly describes the flaring of variable stars —particularly irregular variables (Wolf-Rayet stars being the most extreme examples).

Wolf-Rayets, and most classes of variable star, are not novae. Novae are a type of interacting binary star, where mass from the larger companion accretes around the (typically very compact - a white dwarf) smaller companion.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2003-08-12 12:51pm

For arguments sake, let's say you have a star trek sun-inator 5000 (tm), if the sun were to dissappear, explode, move away really fast, turn off, etc... we wouldn't know about it for 8 minutes. For that time frame we'd be all smiling at the nice warm sun. Same light/warmth/gravity for 8 minutes.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-08-13 12:57am

ClaysGhost wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote: BTW, a lot of people, SF writers (mostly television hacks) included, confuse the terms "nova" and "supernova". The difference is technical but an important one. The latter is the accurate term for a supermassive star actually blowing itself apart. The former however more properly describes the flaring of variable stars —particularly irregular variables (Wolf-Rayet stars being the most extreme examples).
Wolf-Rayets, and most classes of variable star, are not novae. Novae are a type of interacting binary star, where mass from the larger companion accretes around the (typically very compact - a white dwarf) smaller companion.

I was going by a generalised definition. The phenomena you are referring to, I believe, is classified as a "dwarf nova". My inclusion of Wolf-Rayets as examples, however, was in error.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-08-13 03:50am

Don't worry about people picking apart your writing. Just get a few good science-types to run things by.

As long as you're not the guy who wrote "THE CORE" then you'll be ok.

Man, the guys at the geophysics department are STILL laughing about it.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-08-13 03:54am

"Inconsistant Moon" is a great short.

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