Does God exist?

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2002-09-24 09:00am

Is it possible for us to logically conclude the existence/non-existence of God? Is there any evidence that shows that God exist or not exist?

I'm particularly interested to hear other's view on God's existence.

Azeron · Post by **Azeron** » 2002-09-24 09:04am

It depends. There are many events that have remained unexplained tht have been attributerd to god. There was that incident in I beleive Portugal (1960's) when the sun appeared to have left its position in the sky, and hurled towards earth, after a vision of 3 children.

I asked my mom what she saw happen that day, and said the skys went odd shades for the middle of the day.

who knows......

Rathark · Post by **Rathark** » 2002-09-24 09:08am

A good place to start would be to determine whether infinity exists. Anything less than infinity would not be God, however powerful.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-24 09:09am

*Waits for Priesto Brillant respones

Anyway while we are waiting for Fundy boy, God* at least in the Judo/Chrisitan/Islam form does not exist, that much can be asured by the complete and utter lack of *fire and brimstone the Biblical lord is fond of doing, The mear fact that people are running around doing henious acts where traditonaly God would *get biblical on them so *that his wonders would multiply is a good reasion for disproving that particular case

Also the ooooh 300+ times God contradicts himself and the over 10k people he PERSONALY kills through fire at his hands, and thats just in exdous,

To disprove the exitance of any sort of Super Mythical Being is improbable(Not impossible just improbable) however to disprove the existance of a SPEFIC mythical being is rather easy

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-09-24 12:44pm

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Is it possible for us to logically conclude the existence/non-existence of God?

Yes. See the logical principle of parsimony (not the butchered version used by people like Darkstar; the real thing, where extra phenomena are discarded if they lack concrete and necessary predictive power).

Is there any evidence that shows that God exist or not exist?

The only "evidence" for God's existence is unsolved mysteries, and it is a non sequitur fallacy to interpret that as evidence for God's existence (there are myriad other possible explanations for a mystery other than "it's a miracle; an invisible man in the sky must have caused it to happen by violating the laws of nature for our benefit"). As for evidence for God's nonexistence, it is impossible to prove the nonexistence of any entity or concept. However, the fact that the concept has no predictive usefulness prohibits its inclusion in any rational model of the universe.

I'm particularly interested to hear other's view on God's existence.

God is an irrational idea concocted by primitive, simple-minded cultures. The idea is pleasing to most people for a variety of reasons, so they desire their particular conception of God to be valid.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-24 12:59pm

Azeron wrote:It depends. There are many events that have remained unexplained tht have been attributerd to god. There was that incident in I beleive Portugal (1960's) when the sun appeared to have left its position in the sky, and hurled towards earth, after a vision of 3 children.

Ever heard of mass hysteria?

I asked my mom what she saw happen that day, and said the skys went odd shades for the middle of the day.

who knows......

Mein gott! Ye have discovered the phenomenon of cloud cover!
Run for the hills!

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-09-24 01:01pm

Azeron wrote:It depends. There are many events that have remained unexplained tht have been attributerd to god. There was that incident in I beleive Portugal (1960's) when the sun appeared to have left its position in the sky, and hurled towards earth, after a vision of 3 children.

I asked my mom what she saw happen that day, and said the skys went odd shades for the middle of the day.

who knows......

Fatima.. Once a day every year there's a HUGE peregrination headed there. It's kind of a tradition. There are people who travel 200 km barefoot or in their knees..
Well, I suppose they're harmless enough..
And it's really good for the national economy, because of the great number of foreigners fool.. tourists who go there also and by all sorts of expensive souvenirs.

But you've got the dates wrong.. It was in 1917 and they were in fact three little children (sheppards). A bit to early for your mother to remember

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2002-09-24 01:41pm

(G)od does not exist.

(G)od is defined in the bible. The scientific method has shown that many events of the bible are incorrect (ie. Adam+Eve, Earth is 6000 years old, world-covering flood, uniform language until tower of babyl, etc, etc).

The possibility that some powerfull being might exist somewhere doesn't change this. (G)od of the bible does not exist.

Ignoring this, the bible itself shows that (G)od is:

Not omnipotent
"In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. [Ex 31:17]"

Not omnipresent
"But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that men were building." [Gen 11:5]

Nor perfect
"The Lord was grieved that he had made man on earth, and his heart was filled with pain." [Gen 6:6]

Conclusion: At most, Christians are worshipping a really powerfull, ill-tempered, jealous alien.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2002-09-24 01:55pm

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Is it possible for us to logically conclude the existence/non-existence of God? Is there any evidence that shows that God exist or not exist?

I'm particularly interested to hear other's view on God's existence.

This thread hasn't been moved yet? But anyways, the existence of the God described in certain religious texts *cough*The Bible*cough* is at best illogical and irrational. Here's why:

Claim A:) God is Omniscient
Counter: Wrong . . . God thinks the Earth is flat and that there are "storehouses of hail" in the sky. Modern man knows better. Thus, God is not omniscient.

Claim B:) God is Omnipotent
Counter: Wrong . . . if he were omnipotent . . . could he create a stone so heavy that even he could not lift it? (Yeah, cliche, I know, but it works.) And our God of the Bible seems incapable of anything more than sending forth plagues and floods . . . both phenomena with easily explained natural causes.

Claim C:) God Must Have Created the Universe . . . I Mean, Look How Perfectly it is Suited for Life!
Counter: Wrong . . . go outside after it rains. See the puddles of mud left behind? From the puddle's point of view, the universe is perfectly suited to it . . . when really all it depended on was how bumpy the ground was at the time.

Claim D:) God is Responsible for (Insert miracle here.)
Counter: Most of these "miracles" are wishful thinking, optimistic interpretation of natural events. For example, the preservation of the bodies of some saints is considered to be a miracle of God. It is a miracle all right . . . just the miracle of mumification. Others are misinterpretations of natural phenomena, such as the brain undergoing random firing when severely traumatized. These random firings are later interpreted as Near-Death Experiences. They may have actually percieved nothing more than a 'tunnel of light,' their Christian indoctrination prompts them to fill in all the details from there.

Others have debunked the existence of God better than I can. These are the short arguments against God.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2002-09-24 01:59pm

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Is it possible for us to logically conclude the existence/non-existence of God? Is there any evidence that shows that God exist or not exist?

I'm particularly interested to hear other's view on God's existence.
This thread hasn't been moved yet? But anyways, the existence of the God described in certain religious texts *cough*The Bible*cough* is at best illogical and irrational. Here's why:

Claim A:) God is Omniscient
Counter: Wrong . . . God thinks the Earth is flat and that there are "storehouses of hail" in the sky. Modern man knows better. Thus, God is not omniscient.

Claim B:) God is Omnipotent
Counter: Wrong . . . if he were omnipotent . . . could he create a stone so heavy that even he could not lift it? (Yeah, cliche, I know, but it works.) And our God of the Bible seems incapable of anything more than sending forth plagues and floods . . . both phenomena with easily explained natural causes.

Claim C:) God Must Have Created the Universe . . . I Mean, Look How Perfectly it is Suited for Life!
Counter: Wrong . . . go outside after it rains. See the puddles of mud left behind? From the puddle's point of view, the universe is perfectly suited to it . . . when really all it depended on was how bumpy the ground was at the time.

Claim D:) God is Responsible for (Insert miracle here.)
Counter: Most of these "miracles" are wishful thinking, optimistic interpretation of natural events. For example, the preservation of the bodies of some saints is considered to be a miracle of God. It is a miracle all right . . . just the miracle of mumification. Others are misinterpretations of natural phenomena, such as the brain undergoing random firing when severely traumatized. These random firings are later interpreted as Near-Death Experiences. They may have actually percieved nothing more than a 'tunnel of light,' their Christian indoctrination prompts them to fill in all the details from there.

Others have debunked the existence of God better than I can. These are the short arguments against God.

Weird . . . I could've sworn I was in Off-Topic when I was replying to this . . . I need food, damnit!

salm · Post by **salm** » 2002-09-24 02:09pm

it really depends on how you see god. if you think of somthing like a creature or in this kind a uebercreature then i believe you can not prove it´s existance or prove that it´s non existant.

if you consider god to be state of mind, well it´s obvious. he exists. loads of people believe in him, and it gives them some sort of security. that means he helps them. it seems to be good thing for them to have a god.

i (and probably the majority on this board) dont have/need a got. i can get through life without a super shepheard. i dont need a being that gives me hope in an afterlife or something like that.

eventhough i dont believe that there´s a god i still dont know it. and i really hope that there is one. and i´m talking about a cool one with whom i can drink and have fun. not an evil asshole god who enjoys throwing me into a big pot with a bunch of other people then cooks us and makes a nice human flesh dinner stew.

Justforfun000 · Post by **Justforfun000** » 2002-09-24 03:14pm

I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here and just put some personal musings.

I still don't think logic in and of itself is a useful concept in determining whether there is a God.

Logic is only as good as the parameters you have to work with when it comes to facts and concepts. If there are things you are unaware of that are ultimately real, such as laws of the universe we have not "discovered", or states of matter we cannot measure, etc., then you are using false logic to draw conclusions from theories with limited information known.

So as someone in this thread said, you can certainly test and refute SPECIFIC ideas of God as being Real or not, ie: the Bible taken literally. But other than that, I don't see how the logical principle of parsimony could be considered 100% accurate as to it proving or disproving the existence of God. I would be interested in hearing the arguments presented for this idea.

The other thing that has me unconvinced that there is no likelihood of a "spiritual" dimension, is (to my mind) unsufficiently debunked unsolved mysteries of the world. I don't have any immediate specific ones to present properly and honestly, to do so would take far too much time on my end to even present a reasonable and thorough argument for possible validity with the time I have.

One thing that has not impressed me is the works of people like Henry Gordon and Martin Gardner. They have been inaccurate, and sometimes blatantly wrong in some cases when reporting on phenomena that I personally had studied for years out of sheer interest. I say wrong in the sense that even when "debunking" biographies and written material, they obviously did not read the material very well, and in my opinion skimmed through it with no more true purpose than to deliberately find discrepancies or easily ridiculed statements or stories.

I'm all for testing and evaluating theories and stories with the scientific method when done properly, (providing it's possible), but when they are relaying completely different stories and anecdotes that anyone can personally read for themself in the original source materials, than I lose my respect for the people doing this so-called logical debunking. It's surprising to me they woud be so sloppy but I saw it at least 3 or 4 times on subjects I knew they were off base on, and I went back and verified it.

So I still have an open mind on the subject. I have no definitive ideas or beliefs on God or the spiritual realm, but I tend to believe there IS more than we can presently measure materially. As to what it is, God knows.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-24 03:18pm

If there is such a thing like an omnipotent being manipulating our fates then it does a damn good job at hiding from us.....

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-09-24 03:59pm

There is no God, and if there where he would be a pretty awful person.

Tosho · Post by **Tosho** » 2002-09-24 04:23pm

Depends on your definition of God, personly I beleive that God made the universe, and for some reason can't interfere.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-09-24 04:29pm

I have a fire breathing dragon living in my garage.

SWPIGWANG · Post by **SWPIGWANG** » 2002-09-24 05:43pm

w00t, a dragon, where did you get it.

God is unknowable.

Occam's Razor might be a great way to simplify the world, the conclusion reached by it is not proven, as the only thing proven is the existence of perception.

That, and uber connie scaled warp strafing technobabbling deflector-shield-beat-lasering trolling always beat 1.5c hyperdrive.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-09-24 05:48pm

SWPIGWANG wrote:w00t, a dragon, where did you get it.

It comes as a gift when you buy The Demon-Haunted World, by Carl Sagan.
I have one too. He's invisible and undetectable,so it comes really handy as a pet. I usually have it on lookout

salm · Post by **salm** » 2002-09-24 05:51pm

do you have to take him for a walk or to the vet?

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-09-24 05:55pm

I tried once but the vet couldn't find it [although it was right in front of him!] and called for the nurse to examine me. The fool!! But he'll see!! I ordered my dragon to eat him alive!!! BUAAHAAHAH!! I expect him to be no more!!!

salm · Post by **salm** » 2002-09-24 06:04pm

"it" is a bit impersonal. he or she?

Jesus Christ · Post by **Jesus Christ** » 2002-09-24 06:04pm

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Is it possible for us to logically conclude the existence/non-existence of God? Is there any evidence that shows that God exist or not exist?

I'm particularly interested to hear other's view on God's existence.

I post, there for I am, my son. Thy soul can be saved for the yearly sum of US$99.95 to our Cayman Islands Bank account, fully tax deductable.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-09-24 06:21pm

Justforfun000 wrote:I still don't think logic in and of itself is a useful concept in determining whether there is a God.

Logic doesn't determine anything except for the question of whether conclusions rightfully follow from data. In this case, our data is objective, ie- observation of the universe. No concept of God can logically follow from that data.

So as someone in this thread said, you can certainly test and refute SPECIFIC ideas of God as being Real or not, ie: the Bible taken literally. But other than that, I don't see how the logical principle of parsimony could be considered 100% accurate as to it proving or disproving the existence of God.

Nothing is 100% accurate. You cannot be 100% sure that the entire universe is not a figment of your imagination, and that you are not a disembodied "brain in a box", being fed a virtual reality simulation by evil scientists. Absolute proof is an excessive and ultimately meaningless criterion, since it leads to solipsism.

The other thing that has me unconvinced that there is no likelihood of a "spiritual" dimension, is (to my mind) unsufficiently debunked unsolved mysteries of the world.

Already covered: it's a non-sequitur. Why should an unsolved mystery necessarily lead to supernatural phenomena instead of fraud, inaccurate perception, or natural phenomena we simply haven't figured out yet?

So I still have an open mind on the subject. I have no definitive ideas or beliefs on God or the spiritual realm, but I tend to believe there IS more than we can presently measure materially. As to what it is, God knows.

You can believe it if you want. But if you're honest, you will admit that this belief is irrational.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-09-24 06:25pm

Darth Wong wrote: You can believe it if you want. But if you're honest, you will admit that this belief is irrational.

Whereas the existence of fire breathing dragons in one's garage is not

salm · Post by **salm** » 2002-09-24 06:26pm

You can believe it if you want. But if you're honest, you will admit that this belief is irrational

it might be irrational but it still is there in a lot of people who know that it is irrational. people are brought up with it and it sounds like a nice thing that there´s somebody watching over you and that you have an afterlife and so on. that´s the reason why i still have a last spark of hope that there is something similar to god with all the good sides.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

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