Is the Roman Catholic Church to blame for African AIDS?

[Stormbringer]

I while ago, Mike and I engaged in a debate over whether the Catholic Church was to blame for helping AIDS spread so far. Basically, have the abstinence only programs done more harm than good?

I think, they've been a harm but there are things that have done far more to spread AIDS. The culture of promicuity, the general ignorance of the people, and the non-existant health care infastructure.

[Master of Ossus]

I think that the African cultural problems are primarily responsible for their tremendous difficulties with AIDS. The fact that so many African groups have been sex-positive societies for so long has severely hampered the early attempts to put a stop to the problem, and it soon grew so out of control I'm not sure anything can stop it, anymore. It's too bad, really. I don't know what's going to happen to their societies and their people. I'm not sure that any society has ever survived such a huge hit to their labor force, and the mortality rate that is going to be appearing soon will absolutely devastate their populations.

[Mr Bean]

Right or Wrong, fourty years ago they had less than .1% of the Popluas with AIDS, now they have in some places over 25% of the Popluas with AIDS

Is the Church completly to blaim?

No one ever is completly to blaim but when a Church says *Go forth and have as many kids as possible but stay don't have Sex till Marrage, what do you think will happen?

[haas mark]

30+% in South Africa

[Durandal]

For causing it? No. For helping it endure? Yes.

[Master of Ossus]

30+% in South Africa

It's even worse than that, though. Most of the new infections are of either children (who will all die before they turn 18), and among 16-23 year olds. Most of those people will die within five or ten years of infection, because they don't have the kinds of drugs we have in the Western world, and because there are lots of other opportunistic bugs going around in Africa at the same time. Africa will soon become an entire CONTINENT that has virtually NO working age people left. It will have large groups of infants, and a significant group of elderly, but it will have its labor force totally wiped out. I have no idea how a society can possibly survive, like that.

[Sea Skimmer]

In part yes. But HIV would have gotten fairly well established anyway.

[Howedar]

As far as I can tell, the RCC is only one of many causes of African AIDS, and a small one at that.

[lgot]

Laboratories who used the race for HIV medicine was excuse for profit or not are to blame also.
The "gay disease" label that our socieity used is too blame also.
Actually, until someone really famous like Rock Hudson got it, AIDS was marginal and an subject that governaments and media avoided. That was to blame also.
To be true, there is still those to blame, like USA Governament who just try to protect the profit of the laboratories to "own" the medicines (kind of clear and blatant abuse and stealing when they claim to be the owners of drugs and products from everywhere) and did not wanted to governament of thrid world countries (and all others) to freely give medicine to hiv sick people. Good thing, that at least this time, USA lost.
Our society is one to blame and for a just bit, our society have the trait of Catholic Church also...

[Knife]

Depends, how powerful is the Roman Cathlic Church in these countries?

[BigStevo]

I'm not sure that any society has ever survived such a huge hit to their labor force, and the mortality rate that is going to be appearing soon will absolutely devastate their populations.

Unfortunatly there are no global figures for the Black Plague, but in some areas populations fell off by 70 to 80 percent. Granted this usually happened in isolated towns and villages, but it still happened throughout Europe. If anything AIDS will give the African nations reasons to develop more efficient modes of production and manufacturing to account for the missing work force.

[Spoonist]

EVERYONE that preaches that it is wrong to use protection (condoms) are to blaim.

That goes for catholics, muslims and all other ignorant organazitions.

If you have a sexpositive culture then you have to educate people and start selling condoms to stop the spread of aids, it doesn't help preaching abstinence.

[Spoonist]

A continuation from the other thread:
The pope is the one ultimately responsible for catholic church.

This is how he feels on the matter:

http://www.newadvent.org/docs/jp02ev.htm
(My emphasis)

But despite their differences of nature and moral gravity, contraception and abortion are often closely connected, as fruits of the same tree. It is true that in many cases contraception and even abortion are practised under the pressure of real-life difficulties, which nonetheless can never exonerate from striving to observe God's law fully. Still, in very many other instances such practices are rooted in a hedonistic mentality unwilling to accept responsibility in matters of sexuality, and they imply a self-centered concept of freedom, which regards procreation as an obstacle to personal fulfilment. The life which could result from a sexual encounter thus becomes an enemy to be avoided at all costs, and abortion becomes the only possible decisive response to failed contraception.

The close connection which exists, in mentality, between the practice of contraception and that of abortion is becoming increasingly obvious. It is being demonstrated in an alarming way by the development of chemical products, intrauterine devices and vaccines which, distributed with the same ease as contraceptives, really act as abortifacients in the very early stages of the development of the life of the new human being.

http://www.newadvent.org/docs/jp02fc.htm
(My emphasis)

Scientific and technological progress, which contemporary man is continually expanding in his dominion over nature, not only offers the hope of creating a new and better humanity, but also causes ever greater anxiety regarding the future. Some ask themselves if it is a good thing to be alive or if it would be better never to have been born; they doubt therefore if it is right to bring others into life when perhaps they will curse their existence in a cruel world with unforeseeable terrors. Others consider themselves to be the only ones for whom the advantages of technology are intended and they exclude others by imposing on them contraceptives or even worse means. Still others imprisoned in a consumer mentality and whose sole concern is to bring about a continual growth of material goods, finish by ceasing to understand, and thus by refusing, the spiritual riches of a new human life. The ultimate reason for these mentalities is the absence in people's hearts of God, whose love alone is stronger than all the world's fears and can conquer them.

Thus an anti-life mentality is born, as can be seen in many current issues: One thinks, for example of a certain panic deriving from the studies of ecologists and futurologists on population growth, which sometimes exaggerate the danger of demographic increase to the quality of life.

What I think is that the pope needs to get laid!

[Shaka[Zulu]]

actually... there might be a silver lining to this particular problem... evolution might just find a way, so to speak, that would effectively render HIV moot -- a form of natural immunity perhaps. In Nigeria (a nation in which I have travelled extensively), the oil industry has exposed much of the native populace to toxins to the extent that all one need to do to see evolution at work is drive along the highways for any distance. I have seen physical mutations there on a scale the likes of which most 1st worlders cannot imagine.

I hate to say it, but perhaps we rely on medicine too much, as the bugs we fight with them are much quicker to adapt than are we.

[salm]

the chrches can be blaimed partially. but there are other reasons like poverty, cultural crap, lack of education...

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

They're not responsible for starting it, or getting ot to become widespread at first, but for refusing to teach safe . Abstinence-only education doesn't seem to work, especially with Africans. I hope the Church decides to put the well being of others above Biblibcal quotes.

[Mr Bean]

the chrches can be blaimed partially. but there are other reasons like poverty, cultural crap, lack of education...

Indeed and who invested four times as much in Missonaries rather than teachers?

[Colonel Olrik]

the chrches can be blaimed partially. but there are other reasons like poverty, cultural crap, lack of education...

Indeed and who invested four times as much in Missonaries rather than teachers?

But then again they are actually investing in Africa.

You're forgetting one thing. The Church is doing a lousy job in Africa, I absolutelly agree with you. But it seems they're the only ones who care.

A small percentage of what the U.S spends with the military would pay for extensive campaigns in Africa, with proper information. The same goes for the E.U and all the rich countries.

The 1st world is letting Africa die. The pharmaceutic groups, for example, refuse to give out the formula for the antiviral drugs, because of financial concerns. And because of those millions of people die a death that could be avoided. Children lose parents, the countries lose working force.

Some african countries seem condemned to be at war and have corrupt regimes, also a good environment for diseases propagation and general lack of information.

[Mr Bean]

A small percentage of what the U.S spends with the military would pay for extensive campaigns in Africa, with proper information. The same goes for the E.U and all the rich countries.

Booohoo base the Military, you know what? A small amount of ANY Goverment Program these days can provided for half the third world countries out there


Say know what? 5% of Social Secruitys multi-billion doller budge could cover them to but does anyone want to cut that?

No its not a Red Herring its a Point, There are quite alot of things that have more than enough money in them to do

[Colonel Olrik]

Booohoo base the Military, you know what? A small amount of ANY Goverment Program these days can provided for half the third world countries out there


Say know what? 5% of Social Secruitys multi-billion doller budge could cover them to but does anyone want to cut that?

No its not a Red Herring its a Point, There are quite alot of things that have more than enough money in them to do

I know that. that's the point I made. I wasn't attacking the military budget. I was saying that the rich countries have more than rnough money to do comprehensive campaigns and teaching in Africa and choose not to do it.

The church actually spends money there. But it's not always harmful. They mount schools, for example.

That's more than the rich countries want to do. Shame on us.

[Rubberanvil]

A small percentage of what the U.S spends with the military would pay for extensive campaigns in Africa, with proper information. The same goes for the E.U and all the rich countries.

The U.S. Government is already spending a small percentage of the total budget on Africa. It is (mis)application of those funds is where the problems are at.[/quote]

[Colonel Olrik]

A small percentage of what the U.S spends with the military would pay for extensive campaigns in Africa, with proper information. The same goes for the E.U and all the rich countries.

The U.S. Government is already spending a small percentage of the total budget on Africa. It is (mis)application of those funds is where the problems are at.

That's other problem. The corrupt governments and the lack of democracy in several countries.

But one thing is to give out money, which will end up in the pockets of a few. The other is actually sending people there with enough support to really make a difference.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Just to post my opinion. No one is ever truly to blaime for the Aids epidemic. But when someones belief systems provide for the the spread of the epidemic....The catholic church despite the knowledge that education will prevent aids have refused to administer that education. They are responsible for the deatghs of millions, all for the sake of a few more bnames on thier rosters, a few more dollars in tithes per week.

[Raptor 597]

Depends, how powerful is the Roman Cathlic Church in these countries?

Very, in the Catholic Countries. With feeding them they do the abistence only programas, it surely can't help.

[Iceberg]

Depends, how powerful is the Roman Cathlic Church in these countries?

Very, in the Catholic Countries. With feeding them they do the abistence only programas, it surely can't help.

If they'd follow the damn rules, they wouldn't get sick, excepting the odd case where somebody gets nailed by a bad transfusion.

Sorry, but it's not like my heart exactly bleeds for somebody who hears, "Don't do this, it's dangerous," and does it anyway.