A stupid question
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- Smalleyjedi
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A stupid question
For those who say there is no god, please answer this. Where did everything come from? The big bang is the theory. Ok, where did that speck of energy that created the universe come from? Is it just there? If so, how is believeing that the universe has always been or that God has any different?
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This universe was created from the collision of two Universes in the 11th dimensional membrane. (The best way I could describe their motion would be something akin to the waves in the sea.) As for what created the beginning of everything......the fact that science does not yet explain that is a red herring. It doesn't mean that "God" must have started things, it means that our knowledge of science thusfar is not sufficient to describe it.
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two universes 11th membrane? Ill assume you know what your talking about cus i dont. All I am saying is, if you can blieve that the universe is timeless, then that is a step toward God. GOing all the way back, there had to be something that didnt come from something else. Why can't that original thing be God? And no this isnt a flame war. Im not going to flame anyone, and i hope everyone reciprocates.
BTW I will post my reply in the Morning but I feel Wong is best suited to hand this right off the Bat though I know pretty much what he will say
However its 10:35PM and I'm not up to writing another 2 page post this late
In the Morning however
However its 10:35PM and I'm not up to writing another 2 page post this late
In the Morning however
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Your answer
The difference is that "God" is a wholly arbitrary and subjective assumption, unsupported by testable evidence or measurable observation of any sort. The Big Bang was a reasonable hypothesis (which competed with the Steady State model) by analogy to the creation of stars and galaxies, and since the COBE observations of 1996, we now have evidence for the event fifteen billion years back in time.Smalleyjedi wrote:For those who say there is no god, please answer this. Where did everything come from? The big bang is the theory. Ok, where did that speck of energy that created the universe come from? Is it just there? If so, how is believeing that the universe has always been or that God has any different?
Even if the exact origin of the universe remains unknown to us, simply plugging in a myth to fill the gap in knowledge does not make it fact. That same logical process can also support the idea that the universe hatched from an egg laid by the Great Cosmic Turtle.
However, we have no subsequent objective evidence for the existence of the GCT or of the Great Cosmic Eggshell fragments. Without these, the GCT Theory has no valid support beyond that of mere belief.
Similarly, we have no objective evidence or measurable observation supporting the existence of a creator god either in aeons past or contemporaneously with the universe in its present state. We have no traces of this being's passage through the material world at any point in its history. The only support for the idea of the creator god is human cultural belief in such an entity, but that does not substitute for valid physical, testable evidence.
Supposedly, God exists and created the universe according to Belief. However, we can find no evidence of this that we can measure with any instrumentation of any sort. If your claim is that there is no difference between a universe without a god and one with a god, then logic favours the disposal of the God Theory, since it makes no measurable impact upon our understanding of the universe and certainly makes no measurable impact upon the reality we do observe and test on a daily basis.
God is supported by Belief. The Universe is supported by Evidence. Occam's Razor favours the latter.
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ok.......can you prove that everything has always been, or that everything came from something before it? There is no proof. IT seems just as logical that some initial catalyst (God) started the whole process moving than that it is just there and it just happened, with no exxplanation as to how anything came to be. If things can just be, without time, meaning they always were, how do you explain? That seems equally unexplainable as God.
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Actually, the universe isn't infinte. Maybe on a human's scale, but not on a cosmic scale. Either the black holes will suck it up eventually otherwise known as the Big Cool down. Or the time will go in reverse known as the Big Crunch. Either way we're fucked, but I don't know besides the Big Bang Main Theoroy. and thats limited.
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"To myself I am only a child playing on the beach, while vast oceans of truth lie undiscovered before me." - Sir Isaac Newton
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The Universe isn't timeless. We know when it started, in the big bang. As for what happened before that, I won't attempt to explain M theory to you (You *do* know that in science, "theories" are much more than "just theories", right?). Needless to say, you're posing a false dilemma. Because our knowledge is not yet sufficient to describe the events of back then does not mean we have to fill in the gaps with a fictional character.Smalleyjedi wrote:two universes 11th membrane? Ill assume you know what your talking about cus i dont. All I am saying is, if you can blieve that the universe is timeless, then that is a step toward God. GOing all the way back, there had to be something that didnt come from something else. Why can't that original thing be God? And no this isnt a flame war. Im not going to flame anyone, and i hope everyone reciprocates.
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Not my problem
That is not where the burden of proof lies. The burden is to demonstrate that a creator god existed, provided your catalyst, and left traces of its existence in the past or continues to exist presently. All that any God Theory does is to add an extraneous and untestable factor onto the general explanation for the universe. That we do not know 100% of existence does not loan validity to mythology rooted in mystery and superstition.Smalleyjedi wrote:ok.......can you prove that everything has always been, or that everything came from something before it? There is no proof. IT seems just as logical that some initial catalyst (God) started the whole process moving than that it is just there and it just happened, with no exxplanation as to how anything came to be. If things can just be, without time, meaning they always were, how do you explain? That seems equally unexplainable as God.
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You're looking at things the wrong way. Time as a construct was created with the creation of the universe. There simply was no time before the universe started and there will be no time when it ends. The universe is in a sense timeless--albiet with a known starting point--because outside of the universe there is no concept of time at all.Smalleyjedi wrote:All I am saying is, if you can blieve that the universe is timeless, then that is a step toward God.
It's not my place in life to make people happy. Don't talk to me unless you're prepared to watch me slaughter cows you hold sacred. Don't talk to me unless you're prepared to have your basic assumptions challenged. If you want bunnies in light, talk to someone else.
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In a way, you have stumbled across part of the answer yourself, with this post. I don't know if you followed the posts with myself, Mike Wong and Durandal in the "Is there a God" thread, but what Durandal explained to me made sense (here it is, overly-simplified and in case of confusion, best refer to them before me): Our conception of time is based on the activity of the known universe; namely, the movements, gravitic forces (mass/density) of the planets and the like. Without these forces acting upon reality, there'd be no time. Cool?Smalleyjedi wrote:ok.......can you prove that everything has always been, or that everything came from something before it? ...If things can just be, without time, meaning they always were, how do you explain? That seems equally unexplainable as God.
Okay.... so back in the period when the universe was compacted, these forces didn't exist-- thus time didn't really exist either. So saying that a thing was 'always' there assumes that 'always' can be applied in the way that we know and love it today. It just was, and time had no bearing on the equation. The same could be true for God, if you want to believe in such a being-- God would have been a timeless entity.
Just to set the record straight with you, I do believe in God but I say that probably 95% of the Bible is allegory (an arbitrary number on m part, I haven't done an actual word-ratio analysis). My belief is that God caused the expansion of the universe and then observed as the gas & dust expanded and eddied and swirled, formed energy, etc. Biblical stories are metaphorical explanations for things that ancient tribes would not have been able to comprehend.
Oddly enough, this supports a statement in Jewish commentary regarding the formation of the Universe-- that time existed at a different rate; that there was an alternate method of understanding a 'Divine year' as opposed to our own 365-day year, and that when in Genesis it says that God created the world in six "days" these were time-distorted days that stretched into what we would consider untold numbers of years. This is a simple way to explain to a Bronze Age tribal culture something that modern cosmology presents to us through direct observation.
But while I say that this is my belief the validity of my belief is rested on faith, which is to say that I don't know the answer but the God answer is the one I chose because it suits me. Others disagree. The way I apply God, he is not an 'invisible man in the sky' but a divine force without applicable human forms (again, a halakhic [Jewish religious law] point of view).
Many on this bbs are of the opinion that God is a first-rate asshole and given the way God is presented to many people -- as a being condoning and encouraging acts of violence and intolerance-- I can understand that pov. Hence the references to possible flame attacks. Just to let you know...
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Re: A simple question
We can envision the multiverse as being a sudsy froth of n-dimensional branes all interconnected. Just like what happens when you pour some soap in a pot, and then fill it with hot water. This is the base condition. Even this multiverse is plagued with random spikes of vacuum energy peturbing these embryo universes. Every so often, one of them gets nudged just the right way, and one of these bubbles gets really big. Doesn't need any divine being. This is just dictated by basic probability.Smalleyjedi wrote:For those who say there is no god, please answer this. Where did everything come from? The big bang is the theory. Ok, where did that speck of energy that created the universe come from? Is it just there? If so, how is believeing that the universe has always been or that God has any different?
Tales of the Known Worlds:
2070s - The Seventy-Niners ... 3500s - Fair as Death ... 4900s - Against Improbable Odds V 1.0
2070s - The Seventy-Niners ... 3500s - Fair as Death ... 4900s - Against Improbable Odds V 1.0
Coyote wrote:In a way, you have stumbled across part of the answer yourself, with this post. I don't know if you followed the posts with myself, Mike Wong and Durandal in the "Is there a God" thread, but what Durandal explained to me made sense (here it is, overly-simplified and in case of confusion, best refer to them before me): Our conception of time is based on the activity of the known universe; namely, the movements, gravitic forces (mass/density) of the planets and the like. Without these forces acting upon reality, there'd be no time. Cool?Smalleyjedi wrote:ok.......can you prove that everything has always been, or that everything came from something before it? ...If things can just be, without time, meaning they always were, how do you explain? That seems equally unexplainable as God.
Okay.... so back in the period when the universe was compacted, these forces didn't exist-- thus time didn't really exist either. So saying that a thing was 'always' there assumes that 'always' can be applied in the way that we know and love it today. It just was, and time had no bearing on the equation. The same could be true for God, if you want to believe in such a being-- God would have been a timeless entity.
Just to set the record straight with you, I do believe in God but I say that probably 95% of the Bible is allegory (an arbitrary number on m part, I haven't done an actual word-ratio analysis). My belief is that God caused the expansion of the universe and then observed as the gas & dust expanded and eddied and swirled, formed energy, etc. Biblical stories are metaphorical explanations for things that ancient tribes would not have been able to comprehend.
Oddly enough, this supports a statement in Jewish commentary regarding the formation of the Universe-- that time existed at a different rate; that there was an alternate method of understanding a 'Divine year' as opposed to our own 365-day year, and that when in Genesis it says that God created the world in six "days" these were time-distorted days that stretched into what we would consider untold numbers of years. This is a simple way to explain to a Bronze Age tribal culture something that modern cosmology presents to us through direct observation.
But while I say that this is my belief the validity of my belief is rested on faith, which is to say that I don't know the answer but the God answer is the one I chose because it suits me. Others disagree. The way I apply God, he is not an 'invisible man in the sky' but a divine force without applicable human forms (again, a halakhic [Jewish religious law] point of view).
Many on this bbs are of the opinion that God is a first-rate asshole and given the way God is presented to many people -- as a being condoning and encouraging acts of violence and intolerance-- I can understand that pov. Hence the references to possible flame attacks. Just to let you know...
I get rather tired of people who want to have it both ways. They want to believe in God and the Big Bang/ Evolution. They justify their belief by saying that the seven days weren't literal days but thusands or millions of years. The original Old Testament Bible was written in Hebrew, which I believe is a far more accurate language than English. The word "day" to us is a crude measurement of time, but in Hebrew it actually means a twenty-four hour period. You can't have it both ways folks, either God created the world in seven literal days and the Bible is accurate, or he is a figment of millions of people's imaginations.
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Well, I'm afraid that's the way it was explained to me when I questioned the rabbi I studied with in Beer-Sheva. Another rabbi, a native English speaker living in Jerusalem, said much the same thing, and they came from different halakhic backgrounds (Ashkenazi Carlebachist & Mizrachi modern Orthodox). Another, rabbi Lawrence Kelemen, further explained that in the proper observance of the daily rituals and prayers, the hours are converted into 'halakhic hours' that are longer in the summer (around 67 minutes at maximum) and shorter in the winter (54 minutes or so). Naturally, this is only for particular rituals that are adhered to by the Orthodox followers, in truth everyone goes off standard, watch-kept time.David wrote:I get rather tired of people who want to have it both ways. They want to believe in God and the Big Bang/ Evolution. They justify their belief by saying that the seven days weren't literal days but thusands or millions of years.
The "six days" theory is adhered to by Biblical literalists, which I expected a lot of in Israel. I found it not to be the case. The compressed-time explanation is the standard view of the orthodox rabbis I met and it fits well with modern cosmology. Miracle? Clever? Luck? Most on the bbs will say luck; I lean more towards the inspired insight myself, but neither side is trying to convert the other, so there's 'ayn bayah' ('no problem').
This really was addressed by those rabbis; there were questions posed to them such as, "how can the Bible start with 'in the Beginning' if time had not yet been created?" and the same questions surrounded 'on the first day'...
Hebrew also has some inaccuracies and in the Torah there are mispellings that seem to be deliberate and rabbinical scholars have puzzled over them literally for millenia and offered various explanations for them. In Hebrew, "yom" is "day" and does generally mean a 24-hour period, but the "day" ends when you can see three stars in the night sky-- and it is now officially the next day. Still, at sunrise the daylight is 'officially' daylight for the purpose of morning prayers ("ha'sh'ma Yisrael" and the "Shmone-essrei") when there is adequate light 'to recognize a casual acquaintance at 30 paces'. It meant more when there were no clocks.The original Old Testament Bible was written in Hebrew, which I believe is a far more accurate language than English. The word "day" to us is a crude measurement of time, but in Hebrew it actually means a twenty-four hour period.
Christian theology went in a different direction and by the Fourth Lateran Council had seperated itself completely from its Hebrew roots and declared the Pope (from the Roman 'pontifex maximus', the high priest of Jupiter that ran the temple at the Capitoline hill) and Church to be infallible. It also took a very literal pov on the Bible whereas it is more open to interpretation in the Hebrew tradition. A plethora of Protestant denominations have added or detracted to the Bible's 'literality' over the years.You can't have it both ways folks, either God created the world in seven literal days and the Bible is accurate, or he is a figment of millions of people's imaginations.
Hey, the Qur'an adds djinn in some places (genies), so there's a lot of interpretation going on. I have my natural bias but from my perspective the halakhic interpretations are the ones most likely to fit what we have observed. But again, whenever dealing with anyone's religion, someone has chosen an idea basically because it 'feels' right to them and in all honesty no other rationale can be given. I recognize that and also recognize that it seems irrational to others who don't believe. On the up side, I don't buy into the knife-wielding dogma...
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Re: A stupid question
Who says it had to come from somewhere? Why couldn't it simply exist?Smalleyjedi wrote:For those who say there is no god, please answer this. Where did everything come from?
Wrong, dumb-ass. The Big Bang simply tells us what happened to it. It doesn't tell us where it "came from", nor does it postulate that it had to "come from" anywhere at all.The big bang is the theory.
Yes. There is no need to generate unnecessary problems and then demand solutions for them.Ok, where did that speck of energy that created the universe come from? Is it just there?
We can observe that the universe exists. We cannot observe that God exists. Therefore, the conclusion that the universe has always existed is far more logical than the conclusion that God has always existed. Please try to look at an issue (particularly when this issue has been addressed countless times before in this forum) before spouting your ignorant and irrational bullshit about it.If so, how is believeing that the universe has always been or that God has any different?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
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http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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"Proof"? Prove that the universe exists, and that you are not a brain in a bottle, connected to a giant virtual-reality simulation.Smalleyjedi wrote:ok.......can you prove that everything has always been, or that everything came from something before it? There is no proof.
Then you obviously have no grasp of logic. See Occam's Razor. The addition of God to the equation does not change the prediction, therefore God is a redundant term.IT seems just as logical that some initial catalyst (God) started the whole process moving than that it is just there and it just happened, with no exxplanation as to how anything came to be.
Correct. But since we can observe that the universe exists, that puts it one-up on God, since we cannot observe that he exists.If things can just be, without time, meaning they always were, how do you explain? That seems equally unexplainable as God.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Re: A stupid question
OK, in order to believe that the Universe "just is", I have to accept the following:Smalleyjedi wrote:If so, how is believeing that the universe has always been or that God has any different?
1: The Universe exists (which is bleedingly obvious to anyone with senses)
2: The Universe is self-contained (which is supported by available cosmological evidence)
To believe that God 'just is', I have to accept:
1: The Universe exists (as above)
2: God exists (regardless of the lack of objective evidence)
3: God created the Universe (again, with no evidence)
4: God is self-contained (again, with no evidence)
There remains the question "Why does the universe go to all the bother of existing?", but this is basically metaphysical claptrap, of genuine interest only to theoretical physicists and philosophers.
Many religions CLAIM to address this question by introducing some transcendental realm, but they don't acually achieve anything useful by doing so. For example, I can phrase the 'God' argument above as:
1: The Universe exists
2: The Great Cosmological Turtle exists
3: The Universe is the egg of the GCT
4: The GCT is self-contained
EDIT: Just thought I should explain what I mean by 'self-contained' in this context - basically, it means that something does not require an external 'cause' in order for it to exist. Whether your choose to view this as not having a cause, or as being its own cause is entirely up to you (but don't think about it too much - it will make your head hurt, believe me).
"People should buy our toaster because it toasts bread the best, not because it has the only plug that fits in the outlet" - Robert Morris, Almaden Research Center (IBM)
"If you have any faith in the human race you have too much." - Enlightenment
"If you have any faith in the human race you have too much." - Enlightenment
At least, that's what Stephen Hawking and his ilk are trying to demonstrate - that the existence of the Universe is justified by probability and the fact that in order for us to ask the question 'Why does the Universe exist?", the Universe has to be able to support complex, intelligent life.Mr Bean wrote:As for why the unvierse exist?
Probability, its more likley to exist than not to
This is actually part of what "Unified Field Theory" is about - bringing everything together into one scheme which supports Mr Bean's point above.
"People should buy our toaster because it toasts bread the best, not because it has the only plug that fits in the outlet" - Robert Morris, Almaden Research Center (IBM)
"If you have any faith in the human race you have too much." - Enlightenment
"If you have any faith in the human race you have too much." - Enlightenment
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The universe does not exist.
I am alone. The only thing I know for a fact is that *I* exist, because I think, therefor I am. For all I know, you could all be fake, and this entire universe and it's history is some bizarre experiment, or dream, etc.
/end idiotic philsophy
I am alone. The only thing I know for a fact is that *I* exist, because I think, therefor I am. For all I know, you could all be fake, and this entire universe and it's history is some bizarre experiment, or dream, etc.
/end idiotic philsophy
The End of Suburbia
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.