Moscow- not nerve agent. Reasonable explanation

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-29 09:00am

Two German survivors of the recent Moscow terrorist incident were apparently not affected by nerve agents, according to Professor Zilker, Toxicologist at the Munich Klinikum Rechts Derisar, who examined them at a Munich hospital today.

Professor Zilker further commented that large quantities of any gas used in the confines of the Moscow cinema may have had the effect of displacing oxygen and could explain some of the deaths among hostages, simply through suffocation.

Evidence from tissue samples of the German survivors apparently implicated some kind of narcotic gas comprising chlorinated hydrocarbons, including the possibility of an opiate-based narcotic anaesthetic such as trimethyl fentanyl.

Fentanyls are not specifically banned by the Chemical Weapons Convention, but their use may have been a sensitive enough issue for the Russian authorities to keep silent on their true nature.

Nerve agent involvement now seems increasingly unlikely. There are well-known antidotes to nerve agent poisoning but these may not have been available within the timescale of this incident.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2002-10-29 09:20am

Interesting information...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-29 09:24am

according to the news i heard today it was an opium based gas. Sounds like a cop-out to me

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-29 09:31am

Muad'Dib wrote:according to the news i heard today it was an opium based gas. Sounds like a cop-out to me

And just how would it be a cop out?

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-10-29 10:44am

Stormbringer wrote:
Muad'Dib wrote:according to the news i heard today it was an opium based gas. Sounds like a cop-out to me
And just how would it be a cop out?

If it were a nerve agent, there likely would have been no survivors. I seriously doubt that the Russian government's intent was to murder everyone in the theater. Unlike Stalin's Russia, that no longer escapes the international press, and Putin and company know it. Simply put, the concentration of gas was too high, since likely the gas was designed to be used on crowds in the open.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-29 06:12pm

it's obvious the military fucked up and are making excuses.

ElBlanco · Post by **ElBlanco** » 2002-10-29 06:33pm

I read on Jane's that it looks like an old riot gas and they used too much of it.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-10-29 07:49pm

An opiate would make a LOT of sense. Too much exposure leads to very bad side effects and the hostages consequently dropping like flies. Seeing as it was almost certainly heavier than air, it would have settled in the 'stalls' of the theatre where the hostages were. The terrorists guarding them on the stage etc would have caught enough of a dose to disorientate/KO them, the hostages however would have been over-exposed severely.

Cpt. Marko Ramius · Post by **Cpt. Marko Ramius** » 2002-10-29 08:02pm

Yeah, that kind of gas was perfect for this. Knock out everyone, and then do simple seperation. But things went wrong. And you know why? Because they ignored Murphy. Bad things happen when you ignore Murphy.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-10-29 08:33pm

I usually spend my summer working at what I believe is the worlds largest legitimate Opiate refinary. Working 12 hour shifts in the factory there I've been in a hangar size shed full of poppy stalks etc with VERY fine opiate rich "dust" in the air. You get marginally high and VERY ill if you stay in those sheds too long. I was stuck in the goddamn Thebane (read lethal to humans in an unprocessed state) shed with a friend fixing a connection for about one and a half hours, in other words about one hour fifteen longer that you should be in one. We came out and spent the rest of the shift feeling like we were about to throw up and staggering about like drunken monkeys. If thats what unrefined stuff does to you when you are in protective gear (basic mask and filters) then I'd hate to think what a refined aerosol dispersal would do.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-29 08:37pm

Muad'Dib wrote:it's obvious the military fucked up and are making excuses.

And how would you have done it?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-10-29 10:15pm

I think I know why those Germans weren't harmed!! They were junkies!! They just sat back and said "oh ja.. never thought zis would free und government endorsed.."

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-10-29 10:21pm

kojikun wrote:I think I know why those Germans weren't harmed!! They were junkies!! They just sat back and said "oh ja.. never thought zis would free und government endorsed.."

Whatever happened with the dosage, it was very uneven. Some hostages managed to run or at least stumble out of the building while others where dead in their seats. However many died from the side effects of being knocked out, such as choking on vomit or swallowing there own toughs, so the variance may be less then the number indicate.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-10-29 11:01pm

Vympel wrote:
Muad'Dib wrote:it's obvious the military fucked up and are making excuses.
And how would you have done it?

Quite right, the Russians did as well as can be expected under the circumstances.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2002-10-30 01:04am

Muad'Dib wrote:it's obvious the military fucked up and are making excuses.

It's obvious you're a dumbass who cannot accept anything but 0% civilian casualties in any military action whatsoever.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-10-30 01:53am

Do you know how many people died as a result of the gas? More than 100. The theatre had more than 700 hostages. Thats like a 1/7 casualty rate. Not exactly a stunning success.

Dargos · Post by **Dargos** » 2002-10-30 06:24am

Exonerate wrote:Do you know how many people died as a result of the gas? More than 100. The theatre had more than 700 hostages. Thats like a 1/7 casualty rate. Not exactly a stunning success.

OK...there were over 50....50!!!!!!!(for those not really experianced with military or paramilitary activities that is ALOT OF FRIGGEN people to attack, ) well armed terrorists in a very large building that was rigged to explode with 700 civilian hostages inside. Now, lets see what options the Russians had.

1. Storm the building useing only conventional means (at the lowest they would have lost several hundred hostages as explosives and bullets of the 50 terrorists rip into their bodys at close range or at worst the entire building is blown up with the loss of all hostages and perhaps the majority of the special forces team sent)

2. Give in to the terrorists(which would open the door to other extreamist groups to do simular attacks. YOU NEVER EVER EVER GIVE INTO TERRORISTS OR CRIMINALS...that is a cardnal rule! you can lie to them, trick them etc. but you never give into their demands at all costs.)

or
3. Use the gas hopeing for light casualties. If you think ALL the hostages would be freed unharmed you are not only naive you are dumb dumb dumb...

In all I think the Russians did a decent job for the impossible situation they where put in.

my only gripe is that this could all have been prevented if the damn Russian police/military manning check points all over Moscow would have noticed a CONVOY of Jeeps carrying 50+ armed men and women wearing Cammo uniforms. Now THAT is a failure that can not be forgiven!!!!!

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-10-30 08:39am

Exonerate wrote:Do you know how many people died as a result of the gas? More than 100. The theatre had more than 700 hostages. Thats like a 1/7 casualty rate. Not exactly a stunning success.

This isn't exactly Rainbow Six/Rogue Spear you know- I'd say they got off lightly. The gas prevented the detonation of the explosives. Including the massive bomb in the middle- which would've killed many more than 100.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-10-30 01:21pm

Dargos wrote: 2. Give in to the terrorists(which would open the door to other extreamist groups to do simular attacks. YOU NEVER EVER EVER GIVE INTO TERRORISTS OR CRIMINALS...that is a cardnal rule! you can lie to them, trick them etc. but you never give into their demands at all costs.)

*cough cough* Iran-Contra *cough-cough*

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2002-10-31 12:55pm

I agree with the people saying Russia did as well as they could have hoped to... but I wonder if the method used was for another purpose as well, a simple purpose to deter other terrorists. Think about it Russia has now sent a simple but effective message out to the world, if you try and use fear against us, you won't know HOW we will respond, but we are willing to go to lengths that perhaps other countries won't, simply put F**k with us and we'll screw you over so bad... well it isn't worth the effort.

Cpt. Marko Ramius · Post by **Cpt. Marko Ramius** » 2002-10-31 06:27pm

I would also like to side in with the Russians here. I mean, there were a lot of other ways to get the job done, but this was probably the cleanest, the fastest, and the most convienent. I mean, what would people have thought of a government that would have just sat there with their thumbs up their asses trying to find a better way to do this, while the terrorists continue to get more and more pissed off and ready to blow? They had to take some sort of action. I'm not saying that I'm not sorry for those who died. I'm not endorsing civilian casualties in the war on crime and terror. I'm simply trying to state the fact that these people were under the gun, in circumstances that most people hope they never have to face, and they made the best decision they could.

That brings up another thing... in my opinion, there was no way to get out of this without hostage casualties of some form. Somebody was going to die that shouldn't have. That was probably a foregone conclusion. The goal here was go put down the bad guys, and hurt as few of the innocents as necessary.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-10-31 10:01pm

Exonerate wrote:Do you know how many people died as a result of the gas? More than 100. The theatre had more than 700 hostages. Thats like a 1/7 casualty rate. Not exactly a stunning success.

The Chechens had some 250 pounds of explosives, and if even 30 pounds went off it would bring down a good part of the building with ease and kill many outright.

This is not a case for a precision special opts take down, a conventional storming would be a company sized infantry battle in a giant crowd with the defenders being able to blow the whole place on 40 seconds notice.

That is not a winning situation; Alfa had some 200 commandos for the assault, with the gas. They'd need at least that might to overwhelm 52 men and women, and they'd never get more then half before a bomb is set off.

The end result would be a body count of 800+, with most of Alfa's best personal killed along with all the hostages and terrorist

Ted · Post by **Ted** » 2002-10-31 10:36pm

One of the reasons I heard as the result of the high death count was of the conditions the hostages had been in, little no food, little no water, little sleep etc... Which would all contribute to the gas being much more potent and leathal.