Lies and the crumbling of society

[Uraniun235]

Today in English class we had a debate regarding whether it was Good or Bad(tm) for Marlow (in Heart of Darkness) to lie to Kurtz' Intended about his last words.

One of the people arguing that it was Bad said that "if people start lying the foundations of society will crumble".

I retorted "People lie all the time, hell our culture seems to promote lies (or at least carefully constructed facades) and I don't see it crumbling apart."

She said "But it is crumbling, else why would we need to lock our doors? Why don't I feel safe at night?"

"What do lies have to do with murders, robbery and other such crimes?"

"People lie to themselves that it is alright to do that."

That's when the bell rang and I couldn't press on.

I contend that self-deceit is not the same as decieving others; I've managed to convince myself of something that didn't really make sense, and I didn't even realize it until after I'd made a dumbass of myself. Plus, there are people that know it is wrong and do it anyway.

I also contend that lying to someone, as long as the benefits (i.e. they are happy, not sad and heartbroken) outweigh the costs (which in the context are insignificant) is acceptable and the alternative is worse.

What is your opinion?

[The Dark]

I believe your co-student's argument was flawed. Since lying has occured since the beginning of civilization (either way you interpret religion and mythology, there are lies), civilization, by her argument, has been in decline since, oh, roughly the beginning of civilization.

Nobody has ever truly felt safe at night. Look at Roman fortresses or medieval castles. Did they feel safe leaving their doors unlocked at night? I think not!

However, I feel lies should be limited. While there is an acceptable level of facade, pathological lying leads to more trouble than it is worth. My personal opinion is that self-deception is more dangerous than little white lies. They lead to irrational actions such as the people who were laying down on highways a few years back because they saw a movie stunt. Little white lies, such as Marlowe's in Conrad's Heart of Darkness, are generally not important, and as such do not lead to a breakdown of societal boundaries UNLESS such actions become the norm instead of the exception.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Lying, in my mind, is neutral. Lies can be used for good as well as evil, but mostly they're used to avoid unecessary arguments (No, you don't look fat in that dress.)

[haas mark]

Today in English class we had a debate regarding whether it was Good or Bad(tm) for Marlow (in Heart of Darkness) to lie to Kurtz' Intended about his last words.

One of the people arguing that it was Bad said that "if people start lying the foundations of society will crumble".

I retorted "People lie all the time, hell our culture seems to promote lies (or at least carefully constructed facades) and I don't see it crumbling apart."

She said "But it is crumbling, else why would we need to lock our doors? Why don't I feel safe at night?"

"What do lies have to do with murders, robbery and other such crimes?"

"People lie to themselves that it is alright to do that."

That's when the bell rang and I couldn't press on.

I contend that self-deceit is not the same as decieving others; I've managed to convince myself of something that didn't really make sense, and I didn't even realize it until after I'd made a dumbass of myself. Plus, there are people that know it is wrong and do it anyway.

I also contend that lying to someone, as long as the benefits (i.e. they are happy, not sad and heartbroken) outweigh the costs (which in the context are insignificant) is acceptable and the alternative is worse.

What is your opinion?

Another reason I can't stand my English teacher--this book. Anyways, we had several arguments on this topic...and the majority of the class thought it was okay to lie to the Intended. I however, was one of the few realists and thought it was a bad idea to lie to the Intended; everyone needs to be opened up to reality at some point.

[Darth Wong]

Today in English class we had a debate regarding whether it was Good or Bad(tm) for Marlow (in Heart of Darkness) to lie to Kurtz' Intended about his last words.

One of the people arguing that it was Bad said that "if people start lying the foundations of society will crumble".

I retorted "People lie all the time, hell our culture seems to promote lies (or at least carefully constructed facades) and I don't see it crumbling apart."

She said "But it is crumbling, else why would we need to lock our doors? Why don't I feel safe at night?"

Two fallacies in her "logic":

1) False cause fallacy: assuming that A causes B because B exists.
2) "Good old days" fallacy: assuming that B is a new phenomenon.

Lying is bad because it erodes trust in communication, which in turn erodes trust in general, and wastes an enormous amount of societal effort (the entire legal system exists and is as convoluted as it is because of dishonesty) because people have to develop all sorts of convoluted schemes for concealing and/or detecting and/or protecting themselves from lies. In short, it is a parasitic drag on the functioning of a society.

Having said that, society is not "crumbling" (I suggest your classmate study some history), and lies are but one of many problems. But to say that they are harmless is a pretty questionable argument at best.

[Utsanomiko]

sounds like some little girl is under the impression that the 1960's a jolly-good time of trendy music, overturning of the old established intolerances, and fun group protests of the Man, rather than the cultural dark age of peak murder rates it truly was. God, at my highschool the kids practically worshipped it as the Silver Millenium.

[Nick]

Diplomacy is a waste of time.

It may sometimes be a necessary waste of time, but it's still a waste of time.

The most effective communication occurs between two people who have no self-esteem issues, who are able to present their points clearly, who are able to pay attention to the points the other person makes, and are able to adjust their views immediately in response to reasoned arguments.

If you ever meet these two people, could you introduce me? I think they'd be fun to meet. . .

In real life, we aren't perfectly rational - so we need diplomacy to keep those annoying irrational, defensive reactions from getting in the way of communication. Ever notice how many heated discussions turn into "hmm, we don't actually disagree on anything substantial" once the parties have a chance to cool down?

So, like many things, lying per se isn't wrong. However, the default setting should be to be honest and to tell the truth - lying (directly or by omission) is only appropriate if telling the truth would cause undue harm to innocent parties.