How would one eliminate fundamentalism?

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2002-11-11 02:40pm

Im just curious if anyone has thought of a practical way of eliminating fundmentalism (and religon in general) from our soceity while at the same time respecting Individual Rights (meaning no mass killings or kidnapping children, for those on this site who would think of such things). Personally, the only method I have thought of for doing this is teaching children rationality at an early age and formal logic when they get older so that they are capable of thinking for themselves.

Public schooling seems like a good way to teach these things. Unfortunatly, the state of public schools, and the ideas taught in them, makes this all the more difficult. At least in my country, USA.

Ideas anyone?

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2002-11-11 02:43pm

Complete and total re-indoctrination into the world of logic.

And besides, what's wrong with mass destruction/holocaust? A few nice BDZ's would solve the problem real nicely. Chalk the rest up to collateral damage.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-11-11 02:44pm

Extreme increases in education funding and standards. Emphasis on logic, critical thinking, and science. Not only will this put the Falwells of the world out of a job, but it will also bring about the end of other dumbshit like UFOs, phone psycics, and the fire breathing dragon that lives in my garage.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2002-11-11 02:45pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:Extreme increases in education funding and standards. Emphasis on logic, critical thinking, and science. Not only will this put the Falwells of the world out of a job, but it will also bring about the end of other dumbshit like UFOs, phone psycics, and the fire breathing dragon that lives in my garage.

Going to have to agree with those methods there, wicked.

Post by **Coyote** » 2002-11-11 02:50pm

Well, again, I can understand the need to eliminate Fundamentalism in any religion, but all religion completely? If the Fundies are gone, I'd presume that the rest of the believers would quietly go about their business. If you want to keep Individual Freedom and Choice, you'll have to allow people to have access to this if they want it.

Say what you will, but there are people out there who are believers and their faith gives them a feeling of confidence and a source of personal strength. I'm not talking about the bible-thumpers and Pat Robertsons, I mean the quiet, unassuming people who enjoy the feeling of community and assurance but otherwise cause no harm to others. I see no harms from these people.

But radical, oppressive or violent fundamentalism of any sort should be eliminated somehow. Schools are a good start but not everyone goes to the schools (home schooling or private religious schools that preach violent dogmas).

Perhaps a new legal category should be considered, a sort of "Sectarian incitement, vandalism and violence" charge that is targeted only at crimes committed in the name of religious dogma. It would be a sort of 'quasi-terrorism' statute aimed at crushing bad behavior rooted in religious fervor. Any religious organization that sets up in the US would have to sign a compact stating that it is against sectarian violence and will actively discourage any attempt to interpret its teachings with violence. Failure to agree to the compact will result in loss of tax-exempt status; anyone from that church/mosque/whatever that commits sectarian violence resulting in loss of life will have the religious organization shut down.

That's a starter idea, anyway...

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2002-11-11 02:50pm

--In the war against fundamentalism and general idiocy I believe the vast majority of our resources should be put into the battle over our education system. I agree that classes in logic and reason are criticle, but we also need to teach the method of science instead of focusing on the results of that method. In addition, we need to demonstrat that logic and reason leads to the best solution to ANY problem (irrationality can lead to a better answer, but only by chance or instinct).
-If we win the education battle we will win the war.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-11-11 05:59pm

Eliminating fundies - well, how about engineering an incredibly lethal virus that only attacks fundies?

Oh wait - you said no genocide. Okay. Hmm - well I have a number of ideas.

Moderate solution: Radically increased funding to education. We can siphon funds from our military budget. After all, there's nothing wrong with having to have a bake sale to buy a bomber. Radically increased standards for education. Emphasis on science and logic. Hiring only of competent teachers. Removal of the idiots who think understanding the meaning of Shakespeare is a legitimate field of study. Also, there is no need to eliminate mainstream religion - it doesn't pose a threat.

Extreme solution: Most fundie indoctrination is accomplished by the parents. Obviously, we need to remove children from their parents in order to prevent fundamentalism and other idiocy from being transferred between genrations. Obviously, the state cannot be trusted to raise children either. Therefore, I recommend the immediate emancipation of children as soon as they are able to take care of themselves, read, write, speak, and listen appropriately. Funding for housing and other considerations will be provided by government programs as long as they continue their education up through high school, however it will NOT be mandatory (I find that children do not learn when they feel forced to do so.) Children will be allowed to enter the job market as soon as they are able (a working child isn't spreading fundie idiocy, and it allows those who do not wish to learn to be filtered out of our school system without being completely useless.) School systems will be completely revamped, with two concurrent tracks - one for job training, the other for higher learning. Again, this is to facilitate removing the deadwood. The pace of learning can then be increased dramatically, given that today's schools spend roughly 80% of each year reviewing stuff from the previous year (I have been in HS English classes where half the students didn't understand basic grammar, and as such time was being wasted teaching it to them). Emphasis will again be placed on science and logic. Only HS graduates (who under this system, will have achieved the equivalent of a college education) will be allowed to vote, thereby preventing idiots like G. W. Bush fromever getting into public office again.

It should be noted that the principles of social engineering outlined in the extreme solution are completely untested and therefore their use in any RW society of significant size is NOT recommended.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2002-11-11 07:11pm

Your views of the world seem as narow as the people you villify.

Education in the ways of logic is all very well, but it doesn't approach the kind of thing that people turn to religion for in the first place, spiritual education and enlightenement. Logic alone can't guide you through lfe (unless you think Vulcans are, like, REALLY cool)

I reccomend including such guidance in the form of Zen, a manner of approaching thought about the self that is devoid of any religious connection and connotation. It would help people, especially fundamentalists, to realise things about themselves and their interaction with the world, things that would inherently lessen the tendency to cling to simplistic truths 'handed down' from a higher authority. Zen teaches you to reach your own conclusions about your life.

Removal of the idiots who think understanding the meaning of Shakespeare is a legitimate field of study.

It's not legitemate to study an incredibly skilful manner of conveying meaning above and beyond actual words? I refute that.

Literature is vastly important, not just for the vast increase in vocabulary you undergo by being exposed to it, it teaches you how to express yourself, how to convey meaning on multiple levels, and how to FIND meaning in what others say.

It also teaches you that literature is there to be enjoyed, if it's taught right.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-11-11 07:19pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:Extreme increases in education funding and standards. Emphasis on logic, critical thinking, and science. Not only will this put the Falwells of the world out of a job, but it will also bring about the end of other dumbshit like UFOs, phone psycics, and the fire breathing dragon that lives in my garage.

Actually I happen to believe in the UFO phenomenon. I just don't think that theyy're aliens. Just the classic Unidentified Flying Object. Whatever the fuck it is.

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2002-11-11 07:27pm

Vendetta wrote:Education in the ways of logic is all very well, but it doesn't approach the kind of thing that people turn to religion for in the first place, spiritual education and enlightenement.

--People turn to "spiritual education and enlightenment" because they aren't mature enough to accept not understanding certain things or are too stupid, too close minded, too lazy, or too ignorant to critically analyze reality.

Vendetta wrote: Logic alone can't guide you through lfe ...

--This is a fine example of ignorance and/or stupiditiy. Logic guides me through life just fine. It does require a goal (my goal(s)) and data (what I observe) to opperate on though which you may or may not have figured out....

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-11 07:33pm

[quote="Nova Andromeda"]
--People turn to "spiritual education and enlightenment" because they aren't mature enough to accept not understanding certain things or are too stupid, too close minded, too lazy, or too ignorant to critically analyze reality.

[quote]

But he has a point yopu are being the very same monster by going my way or no way.

Educating people is one thing, a productive thing, but calling everyone who disagrees with you and callng all spiritual enlightment is for buffons and morons...how is this different than the fundies morons who call you heathens?

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-11-11 07:52pm

We call the fundies morons because the consistently refuse to obey logic and reason. They call us heathens because we refuse to obey their invisible man in the sky. We support independent thought and reaching your own conclusions based on the evidence. They support suppression of independent thought and reacing the same conclusions as everyone else based on faith. We are advocating a productive lifestyle. They are advocating a lifestyle that makes good sheep for politicians. We have produced nearly every modern device that you enjoy the comforts of today. They have consistently tried to stop us from doing research because it offends their invisible man. We are useful members of society, they are a drain on society. We can back up our opinions logically, they cannot. The fact that there exists a group of people who think 2+2=22 does not change the fact that 2+2=4.

BTW, I don't think vulcans are logical, because they deliberately supress pleasant emotions and follow their old traditions as dogmatically as any fundamentalist. Really, they are just more propaganda from idiots who need assurances that a lifestyle without logic is supeior to one with logic when in fact, it is not.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-11 08:02pm

And this gives us the unequivical right to believe they are unworthy?

Honestly education is the way to do things but if one believes that anything that is not explained 100% logical and reasonable will be greatly disappointed by people in general when no person is ever 100% logical...ever.

Fundies are annoying and ignorant because they believe in something so profoundly that it blinds them to everything else because they don't want to believe that life is hard, but to say anything spiritually enlightening is uneeded and in fact useless in the perfect world...is no better than going up into heaven and singing hymns to being who does not deserve it.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2002-11-11 08:14pm

Why do you assume that education/logic and belief in the supernatural/religion are incompatible? As a scientist i have never seen a conflict. Science teaches us the way the heavens go, Christianity tells us the way to get there, or so i believe. I would certainly encourage people to think logically and would be in favour of putting a lot more money into education, a position that a lot of Christians would hold, from St. Paul to C.S. Lewis.

Being a Christian doesn't mean that you think science is wrong. It doesn't have any view on science other than God, being omnipotent, can break the laws of nature (hence the word supernatural). That doesn't mean they don't apply in everyday life and shouldn't be studied.

To Nova Andoromeda;

'People turn to "spiritual education and enlightenment" because they aren't mature enough to accept not understanding certain things or are too stupid, too close minded, too lazy, or too ignorant to critically analyze reality.'

I'm a Master of Physics student at Oxford. There are a great many Christian scientists.I'd hardly say we're immature, stupid, close-minded, lazy, ignorant or incapable of critical thinking. On the contrary, we're very curious about the universe around and want to find out more about it, but accept that science cannot tell us about anything outside of nature, such as spiritual matters. Science doesn't have all the answers, as anyone with a basic knowledge of quantum mechanics could tell you.

Please don't close off your mind into thinking that science does tell us everything.

And one last thing, if a Christian had jokingly suggested that a virus be engineered to wipe out atheists, would people here come down on them as Hitler-reborn, or laugh along with them? Walk a mile in the other person's shoes before you slag them off. Them feel free to indulge yourself

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-11 08:21pm

Jonathan wrote:Why do you assume that education/logic and belief in the supernatural/religion are incompatible? As a scientist i have never seen a conflict. Science teaches us the way the heavens go, Christianity tells us the way to get there, or so i believe. I would certainly encourage people to think logically and would be in favour of putting a lot more money into education, a position that a lot of Christians would hold, from St. Paul to C.S. Lewis.

logic and religon conflict because one is based upon belief without proof...None of us have proof Heaven exists...but the Bible tells one that it does. That alone is the conflict of religon and science.

Being a Christian doesn't mean that you think science is wrong. It doesn't have any view on science other than God, being omnipotent, can break the laws of nature (hence the word supernatural). That doesn't mean they don't apply in everyday life and shouldn't be studied.

prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

And one last thing, if a Christian had jokingly suggested that a virus be engineered to wipe out atheists, would people here come down on them as Hitler-reborn, or laugh along with them? Walk a mile in the other person's shoes before you slag them off. Them feel free to indulge yourself

genocide is sick regardless of use...stop making it seem that people don't care if it's for Fundies or athesit...genocide is never right.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-11-11 08:32pm

Jonathan wrote: Being a Christian doesn't mean that you think science is wrong. It doesn't have any view on science other than God, being omnipotent, can break the laws of nature (hence the word supernatural). That doesn't mean they don't apply in everyday life and shouldn't be studied.

You're right, but that's not the point. People here don't attack Christians. We dislike fundies. It's different. In other words, no matter your credentials, if you take the Bible literally and adhere to Creationism, you're still a moron.

If otherwise, welcome to the board.

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2002-11-11 08:38pm

Education, can only do so much aganist those currently being taught, we must imprison the Church Ladies. We must stop Fundies from mating, or take away they're kids, or it will take quite a long time for the madness too stop. Or we could just deport them too Canada? No, how about China, great job on atheism enforcement, no they're becoming Pussy, Vietnam? No, same. Any ideas on a good Communist State?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-11 09:22pm

Deport them to Antarctica

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2002-11-11 09:23pm

Jonathan wrote:Why do you assume that education/logic and belief in the supernatural/religion are incompatible?

Religion is an illogical belief. Therefore it is incompatible.

As a scientist I have never seen a conflict. Science teaches us the way the heavens go, Christianity tells us the way to get there, or so i believe.

You just quoted Galileo. Ironic isn't it?

Being a Christian doesn't mean that you think science is wrong.

You're obvisiousily not from the U.S. Besides, there are many flavors of Christianity. Liberal Christians embrace science while fundies say it is the work of Satan.

but (we) accept that science cannot tell us about anything outside of nature, such as spiritual matters. Science doesn't have all the answers, as anyone with a basic knowledge of quantum mechanics could tell you.

Of course science doesn't have all the answers. No one claims that it does. Those answers that it does have however are amazingly accurate. Science, not religion, is what produced the computer you're currently using. Religion has no answers. It is nothing but one big appeal to authority. Someone such as what you're claiming to be should recogonize that.

And one last thing, if a Christian had jokingly suggested that a virus be engineered to wipe out atheists, would people here come down on them as Hitler-reborn, or laugh along with them?

At least we don't worship a hateful mass murderer like you do. We don't spend our Sunday mornings praising him, singing him songs, and reading about how he smited all those infadels. The Inquisition, Crusades, witch trials, and Holocost are stains on your hands, not ours.

Walk a mile in the other person's shoes before you slag them off.

I have walked in your shoes. The only difference between you and I is that I opened my eyes to the real world. Maybe some day you will do the same.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-11-11 10:07pm

Make teaching of evolution madatory in schools, even the religious ones, and focus more on science and logic. Anything worse, and we'd have people screaming "Unconstitutional!". Also, make the public less gullible. I think it should be enough.

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2002-11-11 10:07pm

Jonathan wrote:Why do you assume that education/logic and belief in the supernatural/religion are incompatible?

--I don't assume they are, I reasoned that they are from objective evidence. Supernatural = nonobjective. Therefore, logic dictates there is no objective reason to beleive in the supernatural. Therefore, science and the supernatural are not compatable unless you are willing to be irrational.

Jonathan wrote:I'd hardly say we're immature, stupid, close- minded, lazy, ignorant or incapable of critical thinking. On the contrary, we're very curious about the universe around and want to find out more about it, but accept that science cannot tell us about anything outside of nature, such as spiritual matters. Science doesn't have all the answers, as anyone with a basic knowledge of quantum mechanics could tell you.

--It doesn't matter one bit what you say unless you can back it up with objective evidence and logic. I never said science can or does tell us everything. The fact that you cannot accept some things are unexplained currently and leave it at that means you have not matured enough to deal with the unexplained. Instead you resort to childish wishful thinking and attribute those things to the supernatural.

Jonathan wrote:Walk a mile in the other person's shoes before you slag them off.

--The problem is not me being able to walk in your shoes (I have) it is you being unable to grasp my position or deal with reality logically.

Edit: Fixed the quotes to name their author.

Nova Andromeda · Post by **Nova Andromeda** » 2002-11-11 10:12pm

Ghost Rider wrote:But he has a point yopu are being the very same monster by going my way or no way.

Educating people is one thing, a productive thing, but calling everyone who disagrees with you and callng all spiritual enlightment is for buffons and morons...how is this different than the fundies morons who call you heathens?

--His point is invalid since I would change my position if it was demonstrated my position was illogical. The fundi morons who call me a heathen will not change there position regardless of how many times one crushes their agruements.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-11 10:16pm

Jonathan wrote:Why do you assume that education/logic and belief in the supernatural/religion are incompatible? As a scientist i have never seen a conflict. Science teaches us the way the heavens go, Christianity tells us the way to get there, or so i believe. I would certainly encourage people to think logically and would be in favour of putting a lot more money into education, a position that a lot of Christians would hold, from St. Paul to C.S. Lewis.

There is no conflict provided religion admits that it is irrational, subjective nonsense, and that for real answers about the real universe, you must defer to science.

Being a Christian doesn't mean that you think science is wrong.

It does if you're a fundie.

I'm a Master of Physics student at Oxford. There are a great many Christian scientists. I'd hardly say we're immature, stupid, close-minded, lazy, ignorant or incapable of critical thinking. On the contrary, we're very curious about the universe around and want to find out more about it, but accept that science cannot tell us about anything outside of nature, such as spiritual matters. Science doesn't have all the answers, as anyone with a basic knowledge of quantum mechanics could tell you.

Science has a lot better answers than religion, which basically answers nothing. After you strip away all of the bullshit, religion answers every imaginable question with "uhhh ... because God wanted it that way ... for some reason ... <shrug>".

Please don't close off your mind into thinking that science does tell us everything.

No one said that. However, it is true that science tells us things that are useful and accurate, while religion just makes up nonsense.

And one last thing, if a Christian had jokingly suggested that a virus be engineered to wipe out atheists, would people here come down on them as Hitler-reborn, or laugh along with them?

I dunno- why don't you ask your fellow Christians the next time you're all gathered around talking about the Second Coming and how God will mercilessly smite the heathens? We atheists hear you praising the one who will supposedly murder us all along with our families and torture us for all eternity. People preach about this EVERY GODDAMNED SUNDAY. So don't give us this fucking attitude about how we're all evil for even joking about this; you DREAM of genocide.

Walk a mile in the other person's shoes before you slag them off. Them feel free to indulge yourself

I've studied the Bible. I've been to hundreds of church services. My wife was a Christian when I married her. I know all about the belief system of Christianity and its inherent hatefulness. You throw stones from the flimsiest of glass houses, asshole. And stop assuming that anyone who says something bad about Christianity must not be familiar with it; there is no better way to turn someone against Christianity than to make him read the Bible, front to back.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-11-11 10:22pm

Is it just me, or have Christians twisted the meaning of the term "open-minded" to mean "Granting logical validity to logically invalid ideas"?

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2002-11-11 10:54pm

Durandal wrote:Is it just me, or have Christians twisted the meaning of the term "open-minded" to mean "Granting logical validity to logically invalid ideas"?

Either that, or "don't criticize my bullshit".