Schoolyard fights

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-11-20 03:53pm

Is it really, a good idea to discourage 100% schoolyard fights? Now I think that whenever a fight occurs, that both combatons should be punished. But what pisses me off is that teachers, and school officials preach foolishly idealistic concepts to kids. You know that whole ideal that if you get hit in by a student or challenged you tell a teacher. For the former, it's rediculous, if you can't fight, it's better to rty and defend yourself (and maybe hold your own) and take an ass whooping, than be called a pussy and be branded one for the rest of the year. As for the latter, if someone challenges you to a fight afterschool, I just ignore them, and avoid them, Few people know about the fight and you won't be branded a coward.

My mom also believes that You should tell an official if some hits, I've argued with her on it. But her reasons are somewhat different. Listening to her in my early years actually got me and my Brother punched in the stomach when we were both quite young (which was the worst thing to happen when you are that young). Afterward, I became a troublemaker.

I actually had some experience with being challenged by someone, I ignored and avoided him for the rest of the day, and was fine until I ran into him at lunch time the next day and I beat him up pretty bad. So I'd say evasion is the best tactic for avoiding a fight, but if all else fails, give your best, if your lucky you have some hidden fighting talent and you can win the day. And Again never follow that foolish ideal of telling a teacher!!

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2002-11-20 04:04pm

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:Is it really, a good idea to discourage 100% schoolyard fights? Now I think that whenever a fight occurs, that both combatons should be punished. But what pisses me off is that teachers, and school officials preach foolishly idealistic concepts to kids. You know that whole ideal that if you get hit in by a student or challenged you tell a teacher. For the former, it's rediculous, if you can't fight, it's better to rty and defend yourself (and maybe hold your own) and take an ass whooping, than be called a pussy and be branded one for the rest of the year. As for the latter, if someone challenges you to a fight afterschool, I just ignore them, and avoid them, Few people know about the fight and you won't be branded a coward.

My mom also believes that You should tell an official if some hits, I've argued with her on it. But her reasons are somewhat different. Actuallt listening to her in my early years actually me and my Brother punched in the stomach when we were both quite young (which was the worst thing to happen when you are that young). Afterward, I became a troublemaker.

I actually had some experience with being challenged ny someone, I ignored and avoided him for the rest of the day, and was fine until I ran into him at lunch time the next day and I beat him up pretty bad. So I'd say evasion is the best tactic for avoiding a fight, but if all else fails, give your best, if your lucky you have some hidden fighting talent and you can win the day. And Again never follow that foolish ideal of telling a teacher!!

You can try to discourage it, but unless you've got armed stormtroopers with blasters set to stun watching every kid on the playground at recess, there is going to be the occasional fight. The problem with doing nothing about them is it teaches kids several lessons which do them no good in adult society.

a) Violence solves most problems.
b) Bullies always win and one should do what they say, which leads to:
c) Violence puts you on top.

And the best thing is to go to a teacher when there is a fight. Sure both combatants end up in detention, but it's a good way to discover who may have excessively violent tendencies later on (i.e. who winds up in detention most frequently.)

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-11-20 04:22pm

Also may I point out its just plain DANGERIOUS?

I was skilled/idoit enough in the Third Grade to break somebodys arm and some kids have been BEAT to death before, its rare but it happens

(I know of a boy who was stoned to death in Hickvile USA, Aka Raligh(sp? its been awhile) North Carolina, home to some of the Fortunion Five Hundred Companys and a boy was stone to death by two of his fellow classmates in 89(They realy cracked down on school violence after that)

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-11-20 04:30pm

Now I don't mean, that schools shouldn't discourage fighting, btu they should stop indoctrinating kids with idealistic concepts which to many degrees are conterproductive. Backing down from a fight by ignoring the aggressor (and teaching kids that) is fine, and I would encourage that. But getting an authoritive figure to intervene is a poorly concieved notion. Based on what I've seen:

1. It's a futile attempt at Stopping an Aggressor from encroaching on the subject, it actually can lead to further hostilties from the aggressor.

2. It very often leads to being labeled pussy/coward/etc. by not only by the aggressor, but by your peers. Labeling suchas that, even if you are a confident person wears most people down, and is probably a strong factor in school shootings (revenge).

While I don't like fighting, combating the aggressor, I've seen, seems to lead to somewhat better conclusions, not all the time. If you don't get your ass kicked totally (or even if you beat up the aggressor). The mediation afterwards sometimes leads to a better rapport with your opponent. On the many occasions I've fought someone, afterwards I actually get along or even befriend some of my opponents.

Now personally Schools seriously, need to revamp how they handle fighting situations. Peer mediation is a start, but they need a hell of a lot more.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-11-20 04:39pm

There's nothing wrong with being a coward.

Walk away.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-11-20 04:54pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:There's nothing wrong with being a coward.

Walk away.

Which is my point exactly, At best avoid the aggressor at all costs, sometimes they just give up and forget about bothering you. But If they are persistent, you may have to fight them, telling a teacher or other authorative figure ain't gonna do a damn thing. Fighting is the last resort, as unfortunate as it seem. My advice for that is to (a) fight as hard as possible (throw coherent punches) and still get a beating (have someone there to break it up) (b) Get only maginally beaten up or tie it, and get some repsect from your aggressor. (c) Kick his/her ass!! Maybe you have a lucky streak, or you have some hidden fighting talent. Humbling your opponent to defeat will keep him/her away for good. Best case scenario for all of those occassions could lead to a friendship with the aggressor. Worst case, you are beaten to a pulp. Sorry, this sound s so bleak, but I'm a realist.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-11-20 04:56pm

Ever thought about the threat of legal action?

I was able to get a guy in HS to leave me alone with that.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-11-20 05:02pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Ever thought about the threat of legal action?

I was able to get a guy in HS to leave me alone with that.

Really?? damn. That's funny. Oh I think my parents did that when Some senior were calling me a Faggot when I was in 7th grade. I know I couldn't fight them, but once that happened they stopped. Now I think I could kick there asses though.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-11-20 06:20pm

Punishing BOTH combatents is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard. You are saying that is Person A just randomly attacked Person B that B will aslo be punished just for defending themselves.

As far as I am concerned, the Defender should not be punished. And when I say defender, I mean more then what you think.

When I was in school people tried treating me like shit. They constantly harrased, teased, and insulted me. I finally snapped at my old school when one dumbass was harrasing me that I grabbed the little fuck by his collar and slammed him into a locker as hard as I could. Scared the hell out of him and everyone left me alone from that point forward. In this case, I am the defender because I was defending myself from his shit.

Another example is when I came to a new school and again people were treating me like shit. In health class one idiot started spitting on me so I took my pencil and stabbed him in the leg. Another dipshit in Earth Science wouldn't stop harrasing me and stealing my things so I grabbed him by the collar and dragged him over the desk. I did this infront of the teacher. To make the idiot look stupid I said "Please give me my pencil back". The teacher did nothing to stop this.

Some times violence is the only way to solve problems. I am a rather quiet person and didn't talk much. Its not like I had an attitude that people didn't like and were retaliating. These idiots were just complete fucking pricks who were picking on someone they thought would react meekly. I proved them wrong.

This reminds me of an all Kenny Rogers song.

Ev'ryone considered him the coward of the county.
He'd never stood one single time to prove the county wrong.
His mama named him Tommy, the folks just called him yellow,
But something always told me they were reading Tommy wrong.

He was only ten years old when his daddy died in prison.
I looked after Tommy 'cause he was my brother's son.
I still recall the final words my brother said to Tommy:
"Son, my life is over, but yours is just begun.

Promise me, son, not to do the things I've done.
Walk away from trouble if you can.
It won't mean you're weak if you turn the other cheek.
I hope you're old enough to understand:
Son, you don't have to fight to be a man."

There's someone for ev'ryone and Tommy's love was Becky.
In her arms he didn't have to prove he was a man.
One day while he was workin' the Gatlin boys came callin'.
They took turns at Becky.... There was three of them!

Tommy opened up the door and saw his Becky cryin'.
The torn dress, the shattered look was more than he could stand.
He reached above the fireplace and took down his daddy's picture.
As his tears fell on his daddy's face, he heard these words again:

"Promise me, son, not to do the things I've done.
Walk away from trouble if you can.
It won't mean you're weak if you turn the other cheek.
I hope you're old enough to understand:
Son, you don't have to fight to be a man."

The Gatlin boys just laughed at him when he walked into the barroom.
One of them got up and met him halfway 'cross the floor.
When Tommy turned around they said, "Hey look! ol' yellow's leavin'."
But you coulda heard a pin drop when Tommy stopped and blocked the door.

Twenty years of crawlin' was bottled up inside him.
He wasn't holdin' nothin' back; he let 'em have it all.
When Tommy left the barroom not a Gatlin boy was standin'.
He said, "This one's for Becky," as he watched the last one fall.
And I heard him say,

"I promised you, Dad, not to do the things you done.
I walk away from trouble when I can.
Now please don't think I'm weak, I didn't turn the other cheek,
and Papa, I sure hope you understand:
Sometimes you gotta fight when you're a man."

Ev'ryone considered him the coward of the county.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-11-20 06:42pm

The biggest problem, IMO, is the morons who allow kids to be harassed to no end but one punch in return and it's your ass in detention while the offending bully gets off scott free. This essentially gives bullies free reign to do whatever the hell they want without retaliation. Going to the teacher doesn't work, because the bullies by that time are so used to it that being lectured by the principal and/or detention doesn't scare them in the slightest, and the school can't kick them out unless they are actually physically endangering other students (very hard to prove if the other students aren't allowed to fight back). Personally, if the teachers aren't willing or able to keep a close eye out for trouble (they never are) then punishing people for fighting is just fucking stupid. Obviously people need to intervene before someone gets hurt, but unless that becomes a real possibility, then they should leave them the fuck alone and make sure that the real offender (the bully) is punished at the end, instead of these stupid "no-fighting" rules.

This actually parallels the political issue about gun ownership - police are usually unable to intervene before criminals are able to do harm, and so taking away the ability of the citizens to defend themselves just gives the criminals an easier time. MKSheppard will probably be able to do a better job of arguing this than I, however.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-11-20 06:47pm

We have a lot in common, What I mean is that when both combatons get punished the aggressor should get a stricter punishment. I've beaten up a few aggressor and the one thing that pissed me off is that even though we both got equal punishment, I was treated like the aggressor b/c I kicked his ass. The reason I think a defender should get punished b/c both the aggressor and the defender are both creating an unsafe enviroment by stiring up emotions. But of course, the aggressor sould get the more severe punishment for creating the compromise in safety in the first place. Besides what the hell can you do to fight off someone you know can kick your ass, I avoid as often as possible, fortunately I never had to fight ppl like that, I might have tried to fight dirty though (kick in the nuts, sand in the eyes, a blunt object). Otherwise, I don't like fighting and avoid heated conflicts, but if someone hits me in the face, it's on!!

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2002-11-20 06:48pm

I favor putting both in a ring with boxing gloves and letting them go at it. Seems to stop a lot of issues right there.

My personal experience.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-11-20 06:50pm

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:We have a lot in common, What I mean is that when both combatons get punished the aggressor should get a stricter punishment. I've beaten up a few aggressor and the one thing that pissed me off is that even though we both got equal punishment, I was treated like the aggressor b/c I kicked his ass. The reason I think a defender should get punished b/c both the aggressor and the defender are both creating an unsafe enviroment by stiring up emotions. But of course, the aggressor sould get the more severe punishment for creating the compromise in safety in the first place. Besides what the hell can you do to fight off someone you know can kick your ass, I avoid as often as possible, fortunately I never had to fight ppl like that, I might have tried to fight dirty though (kick in the nuts, sand in the eyes, a blunt object). Otherwise, I don't like fighting and avoid heated conflicts, but if someone hits me in the face, it's on!!

And your punishing defenders who had no choice in the mater. They could not avoid the fight, were merely defending themselves, and now are getting shafted because of it.

Thats REALLY stupid.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-11-20 07:12pm

In fifth grade, some guy got pissed off at me for some reason and attacked me. He knocked me down, kneeled over my chest, and proceeded to beat me in the face. I got a harsher punishment than he did.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-11-20 07:16pm

XaLEv wrote:In fifth grade, some guy got pissed off at me for some reason and attacked me. He knocked me down, kneeled over my chest, and proceeded to beat me in the face. I got a harsher punishment than he did.

Let me guess... your school is run by morons, right?

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-11-20 07:24pm

data_link wrote:
XaLEv wrote:In fifth grade, some guy got pissed off at me for some reason and attacked me. He knocked me down, kneeled over my chest, and proceeded to beat me in the face. I got a harsher punishment than he did.
Let me guess... your school is run by morons, right?

Most are... Last time I got into a real fight was in the 5th grade... Some people were harrassing me, then one of them tried getting physical. I decked him in the stomach, and he just collapsed

They left me alone after that, and I even came to know a few of them on friendly terms.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-11-20 07:29pm

Alyeska wrote:
THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:We have a lot in common, What I mean is that when both combatons get punished the aggressor should get a stricter punishment. I've beaten up a few aggressor and the one thing that pissed me off is that even though we both got equal punishment, I was treated like the aggressor b/c I kicked his ass. The reason I think a defender should get punished b/c both the aggressor and the defender are both creating an unsafe enviroment by stiring up emotions. But of course, the aggressor sould get the more severe punishment for creating the compromise in safety in the first place. Besides what the hell can you do to fight off someone you know can kick your ass, I avoid as often as possible, fortunately I never had to fight ppl like that, I might have tried to fight dirty though (kick in the nuts, sand in the eyes, a blunt object). Otherwise, I don't like fighting and avoid heated conflicts, but if someone hits me in the face, it's on!!
And your punishing defenders who had no choice in the mater. They could not avoid the fight, were merely defending themselves, and now are getting shafted because of it.

Thats REALLY stupid.

Only a minor punishment man. Not everyone can get off the hook entirely. I don't like fighting, because there are always alternatives, or ways to get out of them. Fighting IMO is a last resort, and a necessary evil. While I'll agree that fighting is sometimes the only way, some people need to be knocked down, sometimes they can be avoided. If the defender can avoid it then he has some fault. Oh well our opinion differ on this one.

As for the occasions where you fought could have been dealt with a little better. You should have tried goading them into a fight by pissing them off. Insult their mom or sister, It worked for me when people were pissing me off, and I end Up kicking the shit out of them.

If someone insults verbally and you beat them up, then you are in the wrong for assaulting them, when you simply could have thrown an insult back isulting their mother or someone else and have them challenge you to a fight, thust putting them in the wrong. Simple manipualtion As for the douche bag that was spitting on you or the dickwad that was stealing your pencils, both occassions I would have responded in kind hoping that they would get angry enough to challenge me to a fight. Most douche bags can't stand when someone who they are trying to put down and bully is challenging them in the same way. Arbitrarily attacking someone who does that is funny to watch, but letting them think you are a pussy and kicking their ass is even more funny and humbling. Oh I forgot when they challenge you, avoid and duck them for a day at least, that'lll give them the hugest confidence boost (all the more to knock down). Kick there ass the next day and alls good.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-11-20 07:31pm

XaLEv wrote:In fifth grade, some guy got pissed off at me for some reason and attacked me. He knocked me down, kneeled over my chest, and proceeded to beat me in the face. I got a harsher punishment than he did.

What The Fuck!!! Damn, thats fucked up!! How!! In my school I was challenged by and aggresor, I kicked his ass btu we both got the same punishment, Detention for three days. This was 6th grade.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-11-20 07:36pm

data_link wrote:
XaLEv wrote:In fifth grade, some guy got pissed off at me for some reason and attacked me. He knocked me down, kneeled over my chest, and proceeded to beat me in the face. I got a harsher punishment than he did.
Let me guess... your school is run by morons, right?

That goes without saying. Dunno what it's like now. Haven't been there in years.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-11-20 07:56pm

Now, back to the point. Why the fuck do school officials tell student to tell the teacher if they are hit assaulted, it's foolishly idealistic and counterproductive. There has to be alternatives.

General Trelane (Retired) · Post by **General Trelane (Retired)** » 2002-11-20 07:57pm

It takes two to fight--so yeah, both parties should be punished. Best defense is the Nike defense (run like hell).

I've had my share of fights in grade school. Won some, lost some, but I never went looking for it. Then again, I didn't necessarily avoid it either (too much pride at stake), and in hindsight, that was stupidity.

Fortunately, that school was relatively tame. In rougher areas, kicking the aggressors ass is about the worst thing you can do because he'll get his no-good frieds together and jump you when you're not expecting it. That can get you killed. Much better to have run in the first place.

As for hitting some one that's harassing you, well, that's called escalation. And there could be legal ramifications to that because it makes you the aggressor in the eyes of the law.

Final point: schools are trying to stamp out fighting because that's one tangible way of trying to combat something that's gotten way out of hand--bullying. There have been too many school-yard shootings, and these psychologically disturbed shooters have often been the outcasts who are also routinely victimized by bullies. In my town, city council has passed a bylaw making bullying a fineable offense. It remains to be seen how effective this and other measures will be...

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2002-11-20 08:03pm

Alyeska wrote:Punishing BOTH combatents is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard. You are saying that is Person A just randomly attacked Person B that B will aslo be punished just for defending themselves.

As far as I am concerned, the Defender should not be punished. And when I say defender, I mean more then what you think.

Didn't someone once say that we should be more tolerant of other ideas and opinions? Just thought I'd put it on the table.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-11-20 08:51pm

Some amount of schoolyard violence is inevitable. And even good. But out and out bullying and brawling is bad.

I say every school should have an aikido academy attatched to it. It teaches kids self defense as well as a good moral code when it comes to fighting.

Or would this be viewed as indoctrination. And would people whinge saying that we are forcing them to do excercise?

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2002-11-20 10:57pm

weemadando wrote:Some amount of schoolyard violence is inevitable. And even good. But out and out bullying and brawling is bad.

I say every school should have an aikido academy attatched to it. It teaches kids self defense as well as a good moral code when it comes to fighting.

Or would this be viewed as indoctrination. And would people whinge saying that we are forcing them to do excercise?

They might complain about the violence, even though aikido is really one of the most peaceful martial arts (there is no conflict, merely education of one less knowledgable in the way). I just wish I understood masakatsu agastsu a bit better, so that I could provide a better meaning. Actually, this quote by Morihei Ueshiba is probably about as good a definition of Aikido as any other: "Aiki is the expression of Truth itself. It is the way of calling people together and reconciling them with love whenever they may attack us. When they angrily attack us, smilingly reconcile them. This is the true way of Aiki."

Post by **Edi** » 2002-11-21 02:46am

Schools seem to be much the same no matter where you are... When I was in elementary and high school (grades 1-6 and 7-9 respectively) I was constantly being harassed and bullied. I didn't ask for it, but I didn't back down either, and it got me into a fair few fights, and in some I was the one who threw the first punch after I'd been provoked enough. Got detention for some of them, for some only a talking to (especially when I'd been attacked), but it didn't matter. The teachers always said that fighting is bad, meaning any kind of fighting at all, which was complete bullshit. Self-defense is justified, and no amount of politically correct bullshit is going to change that fact. My dad told me when I was about five or six and still in kindergarten that one should stand up for oneself and not just take shit lying down, and that if somebody attacked me, I had every right to kick their ass and I always went by that maxim.

Funny thing is, the bullies all knew that I was not one to toy with lightly and never without considerable strength of numbers. Especially toward the end of high school they would talk tough but the instant they were actually confronted with possible physical consequences for mouthing off, I could often see them go white in the face. One of the most vocal never said anything to me again after I speared him hard with a hockey stick for intentionally crosschecking during a break in the game in PE. Scared him shitless that I'd actually be willing to do something that dangerous in retaliation. All I got was a penalty, because the teacher saw it from start to finish and knew I was often a target for certain people. Not that I didn't get my ass handed to me a few times, but I nearly always gave as good as I got.

If it's clear that you will retaliate ruthlessly every time someone attacks you, the bullies will eventually go elsewhere to look for easier prey. That's because if they want to continue to pick on you, they're going to need considerable strength of numbers, and that will eventually attract attention from teachers. It looks really bad for them if a teacher happens to come by when you're alone, surrounded by five or six bigger guys who are just starting to shove you around (in this particular instance for slamming one of them full strength and face first to the asphalt after a week of constant harassment). The expressions on their faces were priceless when they got yelled at.

I'll note that I actually made friends with that guy when he had to resit through 9th grade, and we talked about that incident. He said he'd never expected me to fly off the handle like that when he came to taunt me, one moment he was there spewing insults and the next thing he knew he had half his face covered with scratches from the pavement. Good thing he wasn't injured, the move I pulled on him could have ended with him having all of his teeth and nose broken if he'd landed really badly.

A friend of mine went to an American school when he lived in Nicaragua and one time the biggest bully in the school decided that my friend needed a beating, so he lifted my friend up against a wall and said he's in for it now. My friend was a rather skinny fellow despite his height, and not someone who looks like much of a threat. What he is, though, is ruthless, so he just clapped his hands hard over the bully's ears and ruptured his eardrums. Got suspended for it, but nobody in that school ever bothered him again.

Despite all of this I would never encourage fighting as a solution for problems unless all other means are exhausted. I was a lot more hotheaded when I was kid than I am now, so that was a part of why I got into so many scrapes. *shrug* But I will also say that if attacked, if forced to a confrontation, or if there is no other way to stop the bullying, then pulling out all the stops and giving the bullies more trouble than you're worth will, if not completely stop the problem, at least lessen it to an extent. This assumes the teachers are not complete morons, which is by no means guaranteed. The thing to remember, though, is that halfmeasures won't get you anywhere with bullies. It's important that the idiots realize that you'll be utterly ruthless if they force a confrontation. Bullies tend to be cowards at heart, and anyone willing to stand up to them, to really hurt them, and visibly unconcerned with the consequences of doing so scares the shit out of them.

I think I'll stop ranting now...

Edi

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

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