Surprise! NO link between MMR and autism

Mayabird · Post by **Mayabird** » 2005-03-03 09:11pm

New Scientist wrote:Autism rises despite MMR ban in Japan

* 05 March 2005
* Andy Coghlan

PARENTS need have no more fears about the triple vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella. A study of more than 30,000 children in Japan should put the final nail in the coffin of the claim that the MMR vaccine is responsible for the apparent rise in autism in recent years.

The study shows that in the city of Yokohama the number of children with autism continued to rise after the MMR vaccine was replaced with single vaccines. "The findings... are resoundingly negative," says Hideo Honda of the Yokohama Rehabilitation Center.

In the UK, parents panicked and vaccination rates plummeted after gastroenterologist Andrew Wakefield claimed in a 1998 study that MMR might trigger autism, although the study was based on just 12 children and later retracted by most of its co-authors. Soon the vaccine was being blamed for the apparent rise in autism, with Wakefield citing data from California (see Graph). In some parts of the UK, the proportion of children receiving both doses of the MMR vaccine has dropped to 60 per cent. This has led to a rise in measles outbreaks and fears of an epidemic.

Not one epidemiological study has revealed a link between the vaccine and autism. But until now they have all concentrated on what happened after MMR vaccination for children was introduced. Honda's is the first to look at the autism rate after the MMR vaccine has been withdrawn. Japan withdrew it in April 1993 following reports that the anti-mumps component was causing meningitis (it plans to introduce another version).

With his colleagues Yasuo Shimizu and Michael Rutter of the Institute of Psychiatry in London, Honda looked at the records of 31,426 children born in one district of Yokohama between 1988 and 1996. The team counted children diagnosed as autistic by the age of 7. They found the cases continued to multiply after the vaccine withdrawal, ranging from 48 to 86 cases per 10,000 children before withdrawal to 97 to 161 per 10,000 afterwards. The same pattern was seen with a particular form of autism in which children appear to develop normally and then suddenly regress - the form linked to MMR by Wakefield.

The study cannot rule out the possibility that MMR triggers autism in a tiny number of children, as some claim, but it does show there is no large-scale effect. The vaccine "cannot have caused autism in the many children with autism spectrum disorders in Japan who were born and grew up in the era when MMR was not available", Honda concludes. His team's findings appear in the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry (DOI: 10.1111.j.1469-7610.2005.01425.x).

So if the vaccine is not responsible for the rising rates of autism, what is? "Clearly some environmental factors are causing the increases," says Irva Hertz-Picciotto of the University of California at Davis. Other experts disagree, saying the apparent rise could be the result of changing diagnostic criteria and the rising profile of the disorder (New Scientist, 17 February 2001, p 17).
From issue 2489 of New Scientist magazine, 05 March 2005, page 16

Now that that's settled, STOP ENDANGERING YOUR KIDS LIVES WITH PREVENTABLE DISEASES YOU MORONS! GAH!

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/hea ... 524895.300

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-03-03 10:19pm

Here in Canada they have a simple and elegant way of making parents get vaccinations for their kids; they won't let your kid attend public school if he's not vaccinated. Of course, that won't stop the homeschooler crowd.

Veramocor · Post by **Veramocor** » 2005-03-03 10:59pm

Is the claim that the MMR vaccine causes Autism the same as the claims that mercury based preservative in all childhood vaccines cause autism?

If not then the follow up excuse will be that the children had other vaccines with mercurywhich caused their autism.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-03-03 11:13pm

THANK YOU Mayabird. My born again freind has been holding off on vacinnations for her baby because of this stupid ass fucking rumor. I swear I have never met an intellgent Vegan in my life. They believe anything that might discredit western medicine but will believe that vegetables and soy can cure the world.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-03-04 12:23am

Stravo wrote:THANK YOU Mayabird. My born again freind has been holding off on vacinnations for her baby because of this stupid ass fucking rumor. I swear I have never met an intellgent Vegan in my life. They believe anything that might discredit western medicine but will believe that vegetables and soy can cure the world.

Wait a second, she won't vaccinate her child? Stravo after everything I've heard from you in regards to her, I really have to say that the child would probably be better off in foster care.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-03-04 12:52am

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Stravo wrote:THANK YOU Mayabird. My born again freind has been holding off on vacinnations for her baby because of this stupid ass fucking rumor. I swear I have never met an intellgent Vegan in my life. They believe anything that might discredit western medicine but will believe that vegetables and soy can cure the world.
Wait a second, she won't vaccinate her child? Stravo after everything I've heard from you in regards to her, I really have to say that the child would probably be better off in foster care.

He's got his vaccinations BUT the MMR because of these dumb ass rumors about this autism thing. Even after reading the article over the phone to her she's skittish about it.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-03-04 12:56am

Stravo wrote:
He's got his vaccinations BUT the MMR because of these dumb ass rumors about this autism thing. Even after reading the article over the phone to her she's skittish about it.

Jesus Christ on a pogostick. This woman needs help, probably more than you can provide. Is the Church feeding her this nonsense or does she arrive at it on her own?

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2005-03-04 03:48am

The whole not vaccinating because of MMR was stupid in the first place.

From what I heard the risk from the disease was greater than the alleged risk of autism. Not to mention that if not enough people get vaccinated we lose our "herd immunity".

Post by **Broomstick** » 2005-03-04 06:34am

[cynical mode]Part of the problem is doting parents horrified at the notion that their little darling is less than perfect, and if so, there must be a reason for such an imperfection. If it's a vaccine (or whatever) then it's someone else's fault and they can blame that person/corporation/whatever and even sue them for a shitload of money. If it's not someone/thing's fault then - oh horrors! - it might be something the parents did. Or maybe it's no one's fault, it just happened, but NOOOOOOOO! That's an intolerable thought, it has to be someone's fault their perfect, perfect baby is now broken. And who's going to pay to care for Precious? All this extra care costs money, where's it going to come from?[/cynical mode]

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-03-04 07:44am

It won't change a thing probably. When parents play doctor like they did over here and likely still do (I haven't checked vaccination rates lately), then no amount of professional knowledge will tell them different to their motherly intuition.

It's a soccer mom scenario really and because of it, the UK is actually having measles and mumps incidence increase to say nothing of other diseases we thought we'd eradicated. It got so bad at one primary school last year because of this that a couple of kids died who would probably still be alive now had vaccination rates not falled belore something like 85% (the minimum herd rate immunity level is 95% otherwise you may as well dump the vaccine in the ocean).

El Moose Monstero · Post by **El Moose Monstero** » 2005-03-04 08:32am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:It won't change a thing probably. When parents play doctor like they did over here and likely still do (I haven't checked vaccination rates lately), then no amount of professional knowledge will tell them different to their motherly intuition.

It's a soccer mom scenario really and because of it, the UK is actually having measles and mumps incidence increase to say nothing of other diseases we thought we'd eradicated. It got so bad at one primary school last year because of this that a couple of kids died who would probably still be alive now had vaccination rates not falled belore something like 85% (the minimum herd rate immunity level is 95% otherwise you may as well dump the vaccine in the ocean).

I seriously think we need one of those programs that actually represents the arguments how they're genuinely believed by the science world - get a roomfull of scientists, and then divide them up into panels, with the vast majority on one side, and 1 on the other. It's probably got more chance of reaching more people than a single article would.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-03-04 11:24am

Wow - vaccination rates are so low in the UK, it essentially invalidates the defence? I'm not sure I've ever met anyone who wasn't immunised...

The thought processes of these people apall me. Does anyone remember the 'it'll make my boodiful baby CRY!' crowd last decade?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-03-04 11:33am

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Stravo wrote:
He's got his vaccinations BUT the MMR because of these dumb ass rumors about this autism thing. Even after reading the article over the phone to her she's skittish about it.
Jesus Christ on a pogostick. This woman needs help, probably more than you can provide. Is the Church feeding her this nonsense or does she arrive at it on her own?

She's one of these Vegans that believes in everything needs to be natural and good. (Partly because she's allergic to ALOT of food, a wonderful trait she has passed onto her offspring, you wanna talk about a happy childhood? No milk, bread, chocolate and those are the allergins so far.) so she buys into ALOT of this bullshit regarding additives to foods - including the godawful view that genetically engineered foods can hurt you. She's a prime candidate to join a cult - oh wait I forgot she's a born again Christian, Jesus beat me to it.

BTW I read her the article and she's like "But thats just one city." "I think I need to hear more testing results before I believe it." to which I reply "You were willing to believe rumors that MMR caused autism without any scientific evidence but refuse to believe scientific evidence to the contrary?!" I then proceeded to list what MMR CAN do to a child if not vaccinated.

Its a never ending struggle with some people. And you wonder why I have slowly come around to believing that people need to prove why they should reproduce.

Jalinth · Post by **Jalinth** » 2005-03-04 12:08pm

Stark wrote:Wow - vaccination rates are so low in the UK, it essentially invalidates the defence? I'm not sure I've ever met anyone who wasn't immunised...

The thought processes of these people apall me. Does anyone remember the 'it'll make my boodiful baby CRY!' crowd last decade?

These parents really need to talk to their grandparents. They will remember (either as children or as young parents) dealing with mass outbreaks of measles, chickenpox, etc... (you name it) and the fact that PEOPLE DIE of these diseases. So you give your kid (at most) a supremely small risk of autism or a much higher risk of catching a disease. And a measurable percentage of people catching measles will die or suffer very serious side effects.

Pick · Post by **Pick** » 2005-03-04 12:50pm

My mother once had a full-time job pretty much trying to get this rumor to fucking go away so kids wouldn'd end up sick and/or fucked up. Thank god, perhaps now this rumor can die.

Stupid people...

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-03-04 02:06pm

Stravo wrote:
She's one of these Vegans that believes in everything needs to be natural and good. (Partly because she's allergic to ALOT of food, a wonderful trait she has passed onto her offspring, you wanna talk about a happy childhood? No milk, bread, chocolate and those are the allergins so far.) so she buys into ALOT of this bullshit regarding additives to foods - including the godawful view that genetically engineered foods can hurt you. She's a prime candidate to join a cult - oh wait I forgot she's a born again Christian, Jesus beat me to it.

BTW I read her the article and she's like "But thats just one city." "I think I need to hear more testing results before I believe it." to which I reply "You were willing to believe rumors that MMR caused autism without any scientific evidence but refuse to believe scientific evidence to the contrary?!" I then proceeded to list what MMR CAN do to a child if not vaccinated.

Its a never ending struggle with some people. And you wonder why I have slowly come around to believing that people need to prove why they should reproduce.

She's not going to force a veagan diet on her son is she? That can have severe consequences for a baby, like malnutrition.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-03-04 02:22pm

Cpl Kendall wrote: She's not going to force a veagan diet on her son is she? That can have severe consequences for a baby, like malnutrition.

No, she's at least smart enough to realize that. Its just that she will be limited in what she can feed him due to his severe food allergies. For instance he can barely stomach soy milk (no way he can have cow milk). The only milk he has no issues with is breast milk. He can't eat certain wheats, etc. So she will have to give him a specialized diet nonetheless.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-03-04 02:51pm

Stravo wrote:
No, she's at least smart enough to realize that. Its just that she will be limited in what she can feed him due to his severe food allergies. For instance he can barely stomach soy milk (no way he can have cow milk). The only milk he has no issues with is breast milk. He can't eat certain wheats, etc. So she will have to give him a specialized diet nonetheless.

It sounds kinda stupid to say this, but make sure she knows that she can pump her breast milk and put it in the food. If nothing else it'll relieve the stress of having to breast feed constantly.

Sounds like she needs to see both an alergy specialist and a dieticition for the little guy.

I'm sure that you know that feeding a kid food he's allergic too can make for a very cranky, very poopy kid.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-03-04 02:54pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:I'm sure that you know that feeding a kid food he's allergic too can make for a very cranky, very poopy kid.

Sort of sums him up in a nutshell if you ask me. For her own mental health she really needs to peg down just what he's allergic to because I have a feeling there's more than she knows. Depsite all that he's fucking HUGE. Over 25 pounds at 6 months.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-03-04 02:59pm

Stravo wrote: Sort of sums him up in a nutshell if you ask me. For her own mental health she really needs to peg down just what he's allergic to because I have a feeling there's more than she knows. Depsite all that he's fucking HUGE. Over 25 pounds at 6 months.

25 pounds at 6 months? Does he feed constantly?

She needs to take him for an alergy test. Are those free down there?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-03-04 03:03pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Stravo wrote: Sort of sums him up in a nutshell if you ask me. For her own mental health she really needs to peg down just what he's allergic to because I have a feeling there's more than she knows. Depsite all that he's fucking HUGE. Over 25 pounds at 6 months.
25 pounds at 6 months? Does he feed constantly?

She needs to take him for an alergy test. Are those free down there?

At this point it seems almost every other hour. She began supplementing his diet with cereal which she says he now cries hysterically for more when she stops feeding him his allotted amount for the day. Doctor told her once a day one teablespoon of cereal for a week so that his stomach gets accustomed then she adds another feeding the following week but he absolutely had to keep breastfeeding because of his milk allergies.

I thought it was a bit odd that on breast milk alone he's gotten that huge. It was almost scary when I saw him after a two month hiatus. He constantly wants to eat and complains of hunger throughout the night.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-03-04 03:07pm

Stravo wrote:
At this point it seems almost every other hour. She began supplementing his diet with cereal which she says he now cries hysterically for more when she stops feeding him his allotted amount for the day. Doctor told her once a day one teablespoon of cereal for a week so that his stomach gets accustomed then she adds another feeding the following week but he absolutely had to keep breastfeeding because of his milk allergies.

From my experiance with our kids thats indictive of not being full. However if the cereal and the breast milk isn't filling him up, I have to wonder if his body is processing the food properly. How much does he poop and is it solid?

I thought it was a bit odd that on breast milk alone he's gotten that huge. It was almost scary when I saw him after a two month hiatus. He constantly wants to eat and complains of hunger throughout the night.

The fact that he wants to breastfeed every hour or so, seems like it might be strictly for comfort. Our son and daughter both did this.

We solved it by, as bad as it sounds, by letting them cry it out. We went to the doctor and made sure they were properly nurioushed before hand though.

Has she tried a pacifier?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-03-04 03:13pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:From my experiance with our kids thats indictive of not being full. However if the cereal and the breast milk isn't filling him up, I have to wonder if his body is processing the food properly. How much does he poop and is it solid?

I have to wonder whether he's just going to be a big kid. His dad was a semi pro boxer and was rather huge so maybe he's just going to be big and burly. She certainly has been getting positive signals from the Doctor that everything is cool so far.

Cpl Kendall wrote:The fact that he wants to breastfeed every hour or so, seems like it might be strictly for comfort. Our son and daughter both did this.

We solved it by, as bad as it sounds, by letting them cry it out. We went to the doctor and made sure they were properly nurioushed before hand though.

Has she tried a pacifier?

You know that would fit with his personality. He constantly wants her attention and wants her to hold him so why not feed. Plus her impulse is to stick him to her breats whenever he gets cranky which I've told her time and time again is a bad idea.

She like I was when I raised my daughter is opposed to pacifiers. I've seen too many hispanic kids at 4 and 5 with pacifiers in their mouths.

Frankly she just has to realize that if you live your life afraid of hearing your child cry things are going to get nasty for you as time goes on.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-03-04 03:20pm

Stravo wrote: I have to wonder whether he's just going to be a big kid. His dad was a semi pro boxer and was rather huge so maybe he's just going to be big and burly. She certainly has been getting positive signals from the Doctor that everything is cool so far.

Well if the Doc is happy with his weight than it's probably ok. I have a friend with a daughter thats 3 months younger than my son, but she out wieghs him by about 20 pounds, looks like a little tank!

You know that would fit with his personality. He constantly wants her attention and wants her to hold him so why not feed. Plus her impulse is to stick him to her breats whenever he gets cranky which I've told her time and time again is a bad idea.

She's conditioned him to be this way. Using your tit as a way to stop baby Johnny from crying just leads to what you are seeing with this kid.

She like I was when I raised my daughter is opposed to pacifiers. I've seen too many hispanic kids at 4 and 5 with pacifiers in their mouths.

I agree, my kids wouldn't take them anyways. But I thought it might be preferable to having the kid hanging off her all the time. Sometimes all they want is something to suck on. Might be a good time to transition to bottles.

I know he needs breast milk, but she can pump it and put it in bottles.

Frankly she just has to realize that if you live your life afraid of hearing your child cry things are going to get nasty for you as time goes on.

Exactly, it'll be hell breaking the attachment when it's time for school.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2005-03-04 03:21pm

Stravo wrote:She like I was when I raised my daughter is opposed to pacifiers. I've seen too many hispanic kids at 4 and 5 with pacifiers in their mouths.

There's no problem with pacifiers as long as you are prepared to be ruthless about getting rid of them when their teeth start to come in. Those 4-5 year olds with pacifiers are going to have some messed up front teeth.