Chuck Glasgow

[Darth Wong]

After chuckg came here in an effort to look for excuses to accuse me of hating "Christians in general", I tried to find some of the E-mail correspondence that he referred to. I didn't keep all of it, but here's a quote from his last message:

I can, without straining, tolerate virtually anything this side of explicit Satanism -- even Wiccans

Wow, he can tolerate "even Wiccans"? Let's all give him a big hand. I suppose he's basically admitting there that he won't tolerate Satanists ...

In case you're curious, he E-mailed me to argue that Nazis weren't Christian. His basic rationale was that Christians are good people, and the Nazis weren't, so the Nazis weren't Christian, hence they cannot disprove the notion that all Christians are good (like I haven't heard that nice little bit of circular logic before).

BTW, in case you're curious, he's Catholic. That's probably why he takes offense to fundie-bashing; while Catholics are not fundies (strictly speaking), the hierarchy of the church is not exactly moderate either. And the Catholic church's history is steeped in blood, hence it has taken considerable flak on this board (probably another reason for him to be upset at the board and me).

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I can, without straining, tolerate virtually anything this side of explicit Christianity-- even Catholics




Tell him that. See how he responds.

[Frank Hipper]

Ask him why the Vatican were so anxious to appease the nazis.




[edit] Totally re-wrote post. It made no sense. Sorry.

[Frank Hipper]

BTW, in case you're curious, he's Catholic. That's probably why he takes offense to fundie-bashing; while Catholics are not fundies (strictly speaking), the hierarchy of the church is not exactly moderate either. And the Catholic church's history is steeped in blood, hence it has taken considerable flak on this board (probably another reason for him to be upset at the board and me).

The crusades thing has been beaten to death. Ask him who the Albigensians were and what happened to them.

[Nova Andromeda]

--Well we knew he was an EVIL BASTARD from the other thread. This does help to detail the nature of this EVIL BASTARD though.

[weemadando]

After chuckg came here in an effort to look for excuses to accuse me of hating "Christians in general", I tried to find some of the E-mail correspondence that he referred to. I didn't keep all of it, but here's a quote from his last message:

I can, without straining, tolerate virtually anything this side of explicit Satanism -- even Wiccans

Wow, he can tolerate "even Wiccans"? Let's all give him a big hand. I suppose he's basically admitting there that he won't tolerate Satanists ...

Gah. Wiccans aren't even closely related to Satanists. Why oh why can't people pull their heads out of their arses for about 30 seconds.

[Darth Wong]

Interesting that you should mention the Albigensians. He mentioned them. I mentioned that anyone who believes in Christ is a Christian by definition (in response to his claim that one must be a good person to be Christian). His response:

IIRC, so did the Albigensian heretics. Didn't make *them* Christian. They were bleeping Mithrans, as I recall.

This was really too much. I responded to him thusly:

And what was it about the Albigensians which made them heretics, apart from the fact that they defied the Catholic church, so they were targeted for a
good old-fashioned Christian extermination? Does it occur to you that since the Albigensians were mostly killed, we know about their beliefs almost entirely from the writings of their opponents? The victor gets to write history, but that doesn't mean we have to be so foolish as to take the resulting history at face value.

We know very little about them, unless you have a mysterious authoritative source which has escaped everyone's notice. Even their enemies' accounts are hardly damning; they supposedly lived in poverty, praised the New Testament, and dismissed the Old Testament because of the incredible cruelty of the God portrayed therein. But their most important "heresy" was in criticizing the Catholic church and declaring all of its particular rituals and practices (eg. holy water) to be false.

For this, they were butchered. You call them "heretics". You call their murderers Christians. Interesting standard.

[weemadando]

Oh, bring up the cathar heretics.

Here's an EXCELLENT source for all things medieval. http://150.108.2.20/halsall/sbook.html

Big sections on the Crusades and the Medieval church. And its nearly all primary source documents. As such they are of the highest academic accepted standard.[/url]

[Connor MacLeod]

After chuckg came here in an effort to look for excuses to accuse me of hating "Christians in general", I tried to find some of the E-mail correspondence that he referred to. I didn't keep all of it, but here's a quote from his last message:

I can, without straining, tolerate virtually anything this side of explicit Satanism -- even Wiccans

Wow, he can tolerate "even Wiccans"? Let's all give him a big hand. I suppose he's basically admitting there that he won't tolerate Satanists ...

In case you're curious, he E-mailed me to argue that Nazis weren't Christian. His basic rationale was that Christians are good people, and the Nazis weren't, so the Nazis weren't Christian, hence they cannot disprove the notion that all Christians are good (like I haven't heard that nice little bit of circular logic before).

BTW, in case you're curious, he's Catholic. That's probably why he takes offense to fundie-bashing; while Catholics are not fundies (strictly speaking), the hierarchy of the church is not exactly moderate either. And the Catholic church's history is steeped in blood, hence it has taken considerable flak on this board (probably another reason for him to be upset at the board and me).

Wow Mike. Never knew you hated me so badly :p

And I hate Canadians, so I guess we're even

[The Dark]

Theologically, the Nazis were at best (for the "Nazis were Christians" side)Christian heretics or apostates. They participated in neo-pagan nature worship, and searched for artifacts of any religion, something that would be considered at least idolatry within Christianity. I'll agree that the Pope was all too quick to bend under Hitler's will. Since I'm not Catholic, I consider the Papacy to be quite fallible. According to all reports, Hitler was quite charismatic, and proved very good at persuading people. He convinced Hindenburg that he would be a good Chancellor, he convinced Chamberlain he wasn't interested in all of Europe, he convinced von Braun the rockets were for peaceful purposes. I see no reason why the Pope shouldn't be equally as fallible as them and be persuaded that the popular view that Jews were evil was correct. It is a false view, but most people (if not all) seem to hold at least some false views as true.

[Wicked Pilot]

Ask this guy why the Catholics think it's OK for a priest to rape a young boy once but not twice?

[Durandal]

Theologically, the Nazis were at best (for the "Nazis were Christians" side)Christian heretics or apostates. They participated in neo-pagan nature worship, and searched for artifacts of any religion, something that would be considered at least idolatry within Christianity. I'll agree that the Pope was all too quick to bend under Hitler's will. Since I'm not Catholic, I consider the Papacy to be quite fallible. According to all reports, Hitler was quite charismatic, and proved very good at persuading people. He convinced Hindenburg that he would be a good Chancellor, he convinced Chamberlain he wasn't interested in all of Europe, he convinced von Braun the rockets were for peaceful purposes. I see no reason why the Pope shouldn't be equally as fallible as them and be persuaded that the popular view that Jews were evil was correct. It is a false view, but most people (if not all) seem to hold at least some false views as true.

The soldiers may have participated in neo-pagan rituals, but the state was Christian (Hitler enacted mandatory school prayer), and the big ideas (i.e. "Exterminate the Jews") were born out of Christian writings.

[Darth Wong]

"The Dark", I suggest you read "Mein Kampf". Do not allow yourself to be taken in by the misinformation campaign waged by postwar (Christian) historians with an agenda.

[The Dark]

"The Dark", I suggest you read "Mein Kampf". Do not allow yourself to be taken in by the misinformation campaign waged by postwar (Christian) historians with an agenda.

Hitler may have considered himself a Christian, but the rituals and beliefs were that of what is called mesopaganism. It did include Christian dualism and the anti-semitism of the time, but it was not Christianity any more than Satanism. Both admit the existence of the Christian God, but neither follows it. I'm not pulling this from some "postwar (Christian) historians with an agenda," but rather from http://www.neopagan.net/PaganDefs.html.

When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the unions and industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned.
Then, Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church -- and there was nobody left to be concerned.

So it's not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the churches. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advance of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that's left is to prove that in nature there's no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds - perhaps inhabited worlds like ours - then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.

[Darth Wong]

That second quote is a fabrication, "The Dark". Hitler never said it. It came from one of the two well-known fraudulent hearsay sources that were PAID by American historians with an agenda to produce such quotes after the war. Look it up.

[Slartibartfast]

--Well we knew he was an EVIL BASTARD from the other thread. This does help to detail the nature of this EVIL BASTARD though.

You could at least put the damn TM after Evil Bastard. Have you no respect for intellectual property?

[The Dark]

That second quote is a fabrication, "The Dark". Hitler never said it. It came from one of the two well-known fraudulent hearsay sources that were PAID by American historians with an agenda to produce such quotes after the war. Look it up.

My mistake, DW. I didn't know it was fake, I haven't done a lot of research into this topic before. Is Hermann Rauschning's book also considered to be a fake, though it was published in 1939? Who are the two authors of the fake pieces, so I don't quote from them again in debates?

I still think Hitler showed far too much in the way of Druidic beliefs and required prayer to himself. German churches were told to say "Hitler is the voice of Jesus," which while it may sound Christian, violates doctrine.

[Durandal]

I still think Hitler showed far too much in the way of Druidic beliefs and required prayer to himself. German churches were told to say "Hitler is the voice of Jesus," which while it may sound Christian, violates doctrine.

Not really; it just means that Hitler speaks for Jesus, like the Pope is presumed to speak for God.

[Darth Wong]

My mistake, DW. I didn't know it was fake, I haven't done a lot of research into this topic before. Is Hermann Rauschning's book also considered to be a fake, though it was published in 1939? Who are the two authors of the fake pieces, so I don't quote from them again in debates?

Actually, Rauschning's "Voice of Destruction" is one of the most suspect sources (keep in mind that people had been trying to distance themselves from Hitler for quite some time before the war ended). The OSS dismissed it in 1945 as unreliable propaganda (and keep in mind, the OSS was one of the main proponents of the "Nazis were anti-Christian" claim, so they certainly had no reason to lie), and in May 1983, Swiss historian Wolfgang Haenel formally demolished it at the annual conference of the Ingolstadt Contemporary History Research Center (look it up). Among the main criticisms were his huge payments from American and French sources and the fact that in some cases, Hitler could not have been physically present at the times and places indicated for certain interviews. The other suspect source is Martin Bormann's "Hitler's Table Talk", a pure hearsay compilation which was never corroborated anywhere else and which suffered from a great many other problems as well.

I still think Hitler showed far too much in the way of Druidic beliefs and required prayer to himself.

Actually, Hitler openly mocked the animists. You are probably basing your conclusion upon the sources I mentioned; an entire mythology has sprung up based on those sources, and the (understandable) desire of Christians to distance themselves from Hitler.

German churches were told to say "Hitler is the voice of Jesus," which while it may sound Christian, violates doctrine.

Sorry, but Paul claimed to be the voice of God, the Mormon Quorum of Twelve claims to be the voice of God, and the Pope claims to be the voice of God. If we're going to use that kind of definition, then an awful lot of self-proclaimed Christians are no longer Christian.

[EDIT: not to oversimplify, but the fact that Hitler believed in Jesus Christ makes him Christian. End of story]

[Nova Andromeda]

--Well we knew he was an EVIL BASTARD from the other thread. This does help to detail the nature of this EVIL BASTARD though.

You could at least put the damn TM after Evil Bastard. Have you no respect for intellectual property?

--Yeah, I got a bit slopy. Won't happen again I promise. Who owns those rights anyhow?

[Slartibartfast]

--Well we knew he was an EVIL BASTARD from the other thread. This does help to detail the nature of this EVIL BASTARD though.

You could at least put the damn TM after Evil Bastard. Have you no respect for intellectual property?

--Yeah, I got a bit slopy. Won't happen again I promise. Who owns those rights anyhow?

Not sure, I think maybe the Mayor of Albuquerque...

[Vympel]

[EDIT: not to oversimplify, but the fact that Hitler believed in Jesus Christ makes him Christian. End of story]

I mentioned that on another forum when I got into a heated debate with a fucking moronic troll (who subscribes to the all communists are atheists therefore all atheists are communists fallacy of composition). Plenty of other morons jumped at my statement that Hitler was a Christian (made in response to the ridiculous assertion that Atheism/Darwinism is "essential" to a state controlling its people ....) and said "by your definition of Christianity, the Muslims were Christian!!!!" Except that they forgot that the Muslims think Jesus was a prohpet, not the son of God.

I don't bother with that board much... SD.net is far more stimulating.

[Chuckg]

My reply to all of this is in the other thread.

[Darth Wong]

No, your attempt to merge two separate issues into one conjoined issue for the purpose of amping up your personal attacks is in the other thread.

[Chuckg]

OK, just for the record I'll say it here, too -- Wong's quotes of me in this thread are all taken *massively* out of context, for the purpose of claiming that I've advocated certain positions and defended certain things when I've never actually gone near doing either.