This is why history is important.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

I always here people saying that there is no logical, moral, or real reason to study history. THere is no use for it. It's a liberal arts, "fluff subject."

I would disagree. I think it's very important, and this is why:

I like communism, its just that it was hijack by fascist like Stalin

thats where it went wrong. The Lenin Communism was great though. Im probably going to join a communist club when i get into college

These are our future, and hardly anyone gives a shit about history anymore. WTF did he learn in school? Probably nothing, since kids don't give a shit about history.

It's very dismal.

[Gandalf]

Many just learn the rhetoric that comes along with their Che shirts/badges. It is a little sickening.

Another favourite of mine:

"Communism wasn't a fundamentally good idea, I just don't agree with Hitler and all that."

[Petrosjko]

Bizarre. I was thinking along exactly those lines today vis a vis the Soviets while talking to an old friend who used to express a disdain for history.

My favorite example would be the Dot Bomb, though. I went to a seminar at the start of the Dot Com boom, via free tickets from the employer of a friend. Standard fluff and bullshit, and at the end they offer a startup for 1800$, to include a domain, placement, and web design.

This was at the start of it all, of course, as the prices would escalate insanely as time went by.

First thing that came to mind for me? California gold rush. Who made money off of that? Certainly not the prospectors, who got raped by all the various service providers around them- hotels, laundry, brothels, etc.

As the Dot Com boom went on, and the stock market was overinflating, I was remembering '29, especially when everyone was getting into stocks. I once saw a documentary where a woman from that era discussed a party she was at, where somebody came by with shares for sale. Everyone bought shares, knowing nothing about the company. After the crash, she never even found out what became of the company, nor did she ever actually find out what it did. I was hearing too many similar statements.

Simple enough connections to make, if one has done a little study.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

It's just amazing that there are so many parallels, and how much one loses if one doesn't study history. It's like these people forget shit. I mean, what moron would say Lenin's Communism was great? Did he not hear of the famin that whiped out 10 million people that Lenin knew would happen if he instituted his communist polices?


I think it's frightening that these are the people who grow up to vote and join shit. It's fucking scary.

[Gandalf]

It's just amazing that there are so many parallels, and how much one loses if one doesn't study history. It's like these people forget shit. I mean, what moron would say Lenin's Communism was great? Did he not hear of the famin that whiped out 10 million people that Lenin knew would happen if he instituted his communist polices?

As before, most people go to Marxist sources to learn about Marxism. Probably because they fear ridicule anywhere else. A pro-Marxist historian is going to either spin* or just completely miss the millions of dead.

*By spin, I just mean "Blame on Stalin".

[Imperial Overlord]

TBF, Marxist when talking about historians often means that they consider economic factors the most important (like Marx did). It doesn't necessarily mean that they are in love with communism (although some of them certainly are).

Really, the ignorant garbage that pours out of some peoples' mouths is just appalling.

[JointStrikeFighter]

The reason to study history is simple enough;

"Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it"

I think the lesson here is study for your exam or you'll be held back a grade;)

[Seggybop]

If one wants to claim to be a commie, so be it. But acknowledge the reality of what's happened. Failing to do that is disgraceful to the cause.

Marx would be infinitely pissed off at these tools going around with their $39.99 Che t-shirts saying they act in the name of the people. It's so sad.

[JediToren]

Apparently there is a game show that is centered around interviewing people off the street about what should be common knowledge about history, science, etc. A friend explained it to me. Apparently the contestants have to guess what the dumbest answers will be, or something like that. Any way, apparently a bunch of teenagers were asked about what the Holocaust was, and many of them didn't know.

One of them thought it was a Jewish holiday.

Un-fucking-believable.

The problem is that they never read and never pay attention to anything, but they invent a bunch of pseudo-philosophical bullshit to justify being completely ignorant of everything.

One of my former co-workers used to respond to this sort of thing by saying that history, science, etc. were all made up opinions anyway and you didn't need to learn it. She was the sort of person who believed that the Apollo landings were hoaxed, that JFK was assinated by a conspiracy, that our video store was haunted (as evidence she once claimed the malfunctioning toilet that was always running flushed by itself), the aliens were visiting the Earth all the time, believed in horoscopes, and claimed to be partially psychic (which she told to customers and even claimed she had helped in murder investigations), among other things.
She would frequently make up words the way Bush 2 does. My favorite was when she would claim that she had "alphabeticalized" the movies or when she had "wroten" something down.

"I see stupid people. Walking around like regular people. They don't see each other. They only see what they want to see. They don't know they're dumb."
"How often do you see them?"
"All the time."

[Medic]

"More to be feared than ignorance is the illusion of knowledge."
Who's sig did I see this in? Anyway, this brings up a point in my mind.

Teaching history (at least in American schools) while obviously not effective isn't even balanced. WWII history quite literally consists of a very brief summary of causes (tying in to WWI and Versailles and the 1930's), the fact that Pearl Harbor brought us in to the whole mess (insert movie here) and then the rest of it consists largely of American Japanese Internment Camps, Nazi Concentration Camps, the homefront inequities regarding women and blacks and the "controversy" about dropping "the Bomb."

Even if your average Joe did gleam something from high-school history class, it's definitely a version of history as seen through a filter, and a left-wing one in this case.

Videogames like Call of Duty and movies like Pearl Harbor do as much to teach your average American (male) about WWII than anything else. This is pitiful in itself but what's worse is when this material (take Pearl Harbor ) really skimps on every historically significant detail.

[Guardsman Bass]

That's actually my sig. But anyways, from my personal experience, I think part of the problem lies in the way it is taught. For example, two years ago, I took European History as a class in high school. The teacher is one of the better ones that I know of; he used primary sources, tried as much as possible to involve the class, and scared the shit out of everyone to the point that they were opened up.

I remember far more history from that class than from the American History class, where the teacher spent most of the time lecturing and preparing quizzes- basically, encouraging selective memory, or remembering things only long enough for quizzes and tests.

[Firefox]

Obviously American history's dealt with shittily in curricula, since there's an endless supply of "America = Christain nation" nuts. I was unfortunate enough to come close to a shouting match with my project supervisor when he brought out an old HS yearbook that showed a Bible club with the logo "inspiring Christian fellowship" above. I had to remind him that there are Bible clubs in schools across the country, and that religion hasn't been shut out.

And then, there was the aforementioned "but America was founded on Christian values, and people derive their morals from Christian ones!" Needless to say, I was disgusted, but relieved when I had to resume whatever errand I was running at the time.

[Crown]

History is a useful measuring stick to see how far you've progressed or, well regressed, from an arbitrary starting point on certain subjects.

[Kitsune]

The reason to study history is simple enough;

"Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it"

I think the lesson here is study for your exam or you'll be held back a grade;)

I have seen many people who totally disregard this. Talking to a co-worker about current evens and how something similar happened historically and she totally disregarded it.

[Petrosjko]

The reason to study history is simple enough;

"Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it"

I think the lesson here is study for your exam or you'll be held back a grade;)

I have seen many people who totally disregard this. Talking to a co-worker about current evens and how something similar happened historically and she totally disregarded it.

Such people are usually blithely ignorant of current events as well, beyond a most superficial and self-centered understanding of them.

[Jalinth]

Many just learn the rhetoric that comes along with their Che shirts/badges. It is a little sickening.

Another favourite of mine:

"Communism wasn't a fundamentally good idea, I just don't agree with Hitler and all that."

Scary. I think they need to realize that both systems brought massive amounts of death and destruction. Look back at the collectivization that took place in the USSR - how many peasants died either directly or as the result of famine

Although Hitler and Stalin both had fallen into the same cesspit of inhumanity as far as I'm concern. They had more similarities to each other than any of the Allied nations.

[Chmee]

The whole planet is headed to the 'Baldrick' level of historical awareness:

BALDRICK
I heard it started when some chap called Archie Duke
shot an ostrich because he was hungry.

BLACKADDER
I think you mean it started when the Arch-Duke
of Austro-Hungary got shot.

BALDRICK
Nah - there was definitely an ostrich involved.

Blackadder Goes Forth

[Lusankya]

Any way, apparently a bunch of teenagers were asked about what the Holocaust was, and many of them didn't know.

One of them thought it was a Jewish holiday.

Un-fucking-believable.

That reminds me of the CNNNN episode where they were going through the streets of america and asking people which countries were bad. Thing is, they'd labeled mainland Australia as "North Korea" and Tasmania as "South Korea", so they were all putting all their little tags on Australia.

One man even said, "Gee, North Korea's a hell of a lot bigger than South Korea. I never knew that before."

I think they were real Americans....

[Alyrium Denryle]

I love how history repeats itself... WHy? Because all history is is the sum of human events up until this point, and because human stupidity is a constant... the stupid shit people do will be repeated at regular intervals.

By studying history the best we can do is postpone the inevitable, but damn it we should postpone it so it doesnt happen in our lifetime.

[Darth Wong]

Who are these people running around saying that nobody should study any history whatsoever? I'd like to know who they are, because when someone triumphantly disproves their case, it would be nice to know that the case itself existed in the first place.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

When do I hate bad history? When some moron debates me over 200 posts claiming that Galileo and Copernicus were persecuted because of their views of round Earth. And when he cites the sources, it's all from Christian sites.

(That guy wanted to run the "true meaning of Bible was suppressed" trick. Looks like he's not the only one trying to do it.)

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Who are these people running around saying that nobody should study any history whatsoever? I'd like to know who they are, because when someone triumphantly disproves their case, it would be nice to know that the case itself existed in the first place.

It's a bunch of friends of mine, and basically all the kids I knew/know in highschool. None of them care. "why do I need to study dead people?" "they're dead!"

[Kitsune]

Such people are usually blithely ignorant of current events as well, beyond a most superficial and self-centered understanding of them.

Pretty close, I know that this board generaly does not like President Bush but she considered anything that came from his mouth to be a direct plot against her.

[kheegster]

Who are these people running around saying that nobody should study any history whatsoever? I'd like to know who they are, because when someone triumphantly disproves their case, it would be nice to know that the case itself existed in the first place.

It's a bunch of friends of mine, and basically all the kids I knew/know in highschool. None of them care. "why do I need to study dead people?" "they're dead!"

In that case, your friends are being idiots.

[Queeb Salaron]

What gets me is that if/when this guy in the OP decides to join up with a group in college, this kind of thought process will not only be encouraged, it will be reinforced with "legitimate" documentation, vis a vis uber-liberal college professors writing papers fellating Marx.

I go to a relatively conservative private school (not many liberal private schools in this country), which bothers me to some degree. I don't like having part of my tuition be given to Raetheon in gifts and grants, but that's me. But what bothers me more than the conservative-leaning academic policies of the school is the knee-jerk, speak-before-you-think leftist reactionaries who seem to be looking for reasons to make signs and burn bras.

It's one thing to protest unfair policies. It's another thing entirely to create a case based entirely on spin. I saw a flyer today at a bus station calling for the disarming of police because a stray bullet from an officer's handgun killed a young child. I did my research, and the officer was defending himself against two armed men who had been pulled over for speeding through a residential area, and the child was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Both men were arrested and charged with felonious murder, of course, but this fact was a travesty to the liberals (members of NUCAWR: Northeastern University Campus Against War and Racism, a branch of the Progressive Student Organization and the NU Socialists) who believed that the white officer was getting away with murdering a black child.

Never mind that the law clearly states that any death occurring during and as a result of the commission of a felony is murder, regardless of who killed whom. Never mind that had the police officer been unarmed, he would have been dead, and there would have been one less person to protect that child and children like him. Never mind that the killing was an accident. As far as these misled students were concerned, there are white cops killing black children for no reason at all, and this alone is reason enough to take away their guns.

Seriously, if this is the kind of behavior that the extreme left will exibit in the years to come, I may very well start to call myself a conservative in the future.