God as an Imperfect Creator

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

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Queeb Salaron
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God as an Imperfect Creator

Post by Queeb Salaron »

(Posted this on SW vs ST by mistake, and no one moved it. So I moved it myself)

I just found an older journal entry that I'd written. Seemed like some of you might like to read it.

If you don't want to read it all, here's the sparknotes: the concept of God as a creator is flawed because God has failed to provide key elements to human survival. He has also fundamentally failed to provide a concrete moral compass. These facts indicate that God is imperfect. (The conclusion that can be drawn from this is that, if God is imperfect, he does not exist in the way that the Christians say he does, though this entry doesn't go that far.)
Old Journal Entry wrote: I believe that life was created not by chance, but by some fatalistic intervention on the behalf of some otherworldly force. I am neither confirming nor denying the existence of God here; in fact, in my introspective ramblings I have yet to do so. Rather, I am simply hinting at the possibility of a greater cosmic force, the answer to the eternal “so what?” (This question will be the subject of future ramblings, I am sure.)

If we accept the postulate that life is a creation, though the nature of the creator is seen foggily at best, an interesting question may be posed. If we are creations, why were we given the ability to create? We are the only creatures in the world with such a developed sense of creativity. No other animal in the world is capable of devising strategies and devices, never mind synthesize materials necessary to build complex structures and tools.

If God created man, then his creation was necessarily imperfect. This is not a value judgment; I do not intend to say that God is imperfect and therefore does not exist. But God did fail to provide man with everything necessary for survival. Man had to create things with which to build shelter and weapons more efficiently, using natural objects for unnatural purposes, creating social constructs, etc. None of these were apparently intended by God. Nowhere in the bible does it mention God’s desire for man to go forth and be technologically adept creatures.

(Jeff brought up an interesting point today. He asked if I thought God was to blame for creating the temptation by which Adam and Eve were booted from Eden. I considered it, and decided that it was the snake’s fault for presenting temptation, and God’s fault for creating the snake. Why he created the snake, I don’t know. Nor can I fathom this: if after Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and they saw that they were naked and knew that it was bad, does that mean that God created man in a state of objective evil, and that the only reason Adam and Eve were unaware of this fact was that they were purely innocent? By eating the fruit, didn’t Adam and Eve escape the greater sin of ignorance to their own inherent evil?)

Man, therefore, is a creative creature by nature (perhaps because he has set himself apart from the Creator and needs to fill a certain void). But assuming that man does not exist apart from God (and the Christians say this is the case) we must take into account the idea that we are ourselves creations. The larger question here is that if we are creations, do our creations amount to nothing more than the creations of God vicariously through us? Are the great works of art and engineering nothing more than God’s hand manifest in our works?

If so, consider the implications. From churches to brothels, the Vatican to Vegas, all was created by God. Better than that, both Gregorian chant and death metal are attributable to God. Communism, Capitalism, McCarthyism, Nazism, Taoism… all of these things are intellectual creations, and are therefore the creation of God’s finest creation (or so we like to think), and perhaps therefore attributable to God.

Of course, if this is not so, if the creations of man are not attributable to God, is this an indication that God cannot be manifest in quotidian life? Every decision that we make is arguably part of a creative thought process, weighing carefully the costs and benefits of all possible outcomes before acting. The logical thought process is itself a creation of man. If this creation is attributable only to man, then God does not directly (only ideologically) influence our thought processes. Furthermore, so-called “revelations” are nothing more than the product of the creative process, which necessarily excludes divine intervention.

The idea of revelation is only made possible under the circumstances that God takes credit for man’s creations (producing the conundrums of the paragraph before last), or that He takes credit for some of man’s creations. This latter is most troublesome, considering it would be practically impossible to tell which creations of man were and were not conceived of by God. For instance, we might all agree that God took part in creating hunting weapons, as they would have been necessary for the survival of mankind. But I doubt very much if the evolution of these weapons into high explosives and high-velocity projectiles would largely be attributed to God. But the line gets fuzzy when one considers the use of these weapons for police use. Is the 9mm handgun the creation of God, and if so, what of the children being killed by drug dealers wielding the same weapon? The invention of certain medical treatments could have been divinely inspired, but the medicine that provides for abortions or corporal enhancement probably is not the work of God. It is easy to see where the line may be less clear, however, in the case of Euthanasia.

I am of the opinion that man creates independently of God, and that man’s creations are man’s alone. The concept of God – more specifically the individualized moral construction formed around this concept – functions only to help us determine how to properly and morally use these creations for good rather than evil. Of course, considering that we were created in a state of evil, perhaps it is God who needs a lesson in the ethics of creation.
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Post by The Third Man »

Maybe we are not a finished product yet. And biological evolution and our own technological creativity are tools that God is using as part of the on-going creation process.
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Post by Franc28 »

If a god created everything, then he also created Rick Berman. Enough said !
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Post by Franc28 »

But more seriously, anyone who does not see that the "design" in the universe can only be charitably described as "piss-poor design" is living a very sheltered life.
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Post by Terr Fangbite »

Meh. Maybe he knows something that we don't. I just think its stupid to assume the perfect world must be perfect in our views. Also, assuming a perfect world means that god put us here to live happy lives and be perfect. According to some Christian (and possibly non-christian) sects, this is not the case. God put us here to improve ourselves. You couldn't really improve yourself without strif in your life.
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Post by Melchior »

Terr Fangbite wrote:Meh. Maybe he knows something that we don't. I just think its stupid to assume the perfect world must be perfect in our views. Also, assuming a perfect world means that god put us here to live happy lives and be perfect. According to some Christian (and possibly non-christian) sects, this is not the case. God put us here to improve ourselves. You couldn't really improve yourself without strif in your life.
And why should we believe in His totallly unsupported by proof existence?
It is still redundant, since we still can't explain how he created everything.
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Post by Queeb Salaron »

The Third Man wrote:Maybe we are not a finished product yet. And biological evolution and our own technological creativity are tools that God is using as part of the on-going creation process.
This is a concept I hadn't considered. What makes us think that creation is finished? Well, the Christians tell us it is, for one. If this is true, either they're wrong (most likely) or the Catholics will claim it in a decade as what they believe to be true. Bloody Catholics.
Franc28 wrote:But more seriously, anyone who does not see that the "design" in the universe can only be charitably described as "piss-poor design" is living a very sheltered life.
At least one sheltered from science. Just because someone is not up on the complexities of the Universe does not make him or her "sheltered." Of course, I would hardly trust any scientific speculation made by such a person.
Terr Fangbite wrote:Meh. Maybe he knows something that we don't. I just think its stupid to assume the perfect world must be perfect in our views.
There is a point there, I'm sure. But the facts are that God (this word being used in place of "Otherworldly Force" for brevity) did not provide for us everything we need to survive. Through his own creative processes, man figured out how to survive and flourish. Perfect or not, the world that God gave us was in itself insufficient to sustain human life. We had to figure that part out on our own.
Terr wrote:Also, assuming a perfect world means that god put us here to live happy lives and be perfect. According to some Christian (and possibly non-christian) sects, this is not the case. God put us here to improve ourselves. You couldn't really improve yourself without strif in your life.
This is true, but no one is assuming a perfect world. Strife or no, man still had to create the means by which to survive on a basic level. They were not provided for him. And by using this intellect, man has improved himself in an evolutionary sense, but it does not seem as though we were created to do so. It seems as though we were created simply to fail, and in the face of these odds we succeeded. At least, that's the spin that the OP put on the concept.
melchior wrote:And why should we believe in His totallly unsupported by proof existence?
It is still redundant, since we still can't explain how he created everything.
Well, we can't explain how everything was created, this is true. But that shouldn't stop us from speculating. As for proof of God's existence, there isn't any, and there never will be any. Of this I am certain. The idea I'm playing with is that if there is a Creator, as the Christians claim, he set mankind up for failure, and we succeeded anyway. The only creator I can imagine who would do such a thing is not the compassionate God of the Christians, but an ambivalent Otherworldly Force.

And from that premise, we move on to the idea of human creation, and that Force's role in man's ideas.
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Post by Melchior »

Queeb Salaron wrote: Well, we can't explain how everything was created, this is true. But that shouldn't stop us from speculating. As for proof of God's existence, there isn't any, and there never will be any. Of this I am certain. The idea I'm playing with is that if there is a Creator, as the Christians claim, he set mankind up for failure, and we succeeded anyway. The only creator I can imagine who would do such a thing is not the compassionate God of the Christians, but an ambivalent Otherworldly Force.
.
Still, parsimony says that you are wrong.
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Post by Queeb Salaron »

Melchior wrote:Still, parsimony says that you are wrong.
Parsimony made a martyr of the Christians long before it targeted me. And my observations are far more parsimonious than the Christians', and more supported than you may think.

After all, when talking about an "Ambivalent Otherworldly Force," who's to say I'm not talking about, say, physics that have yet to be understood? Many of us would agree that there are things out there for which science has not completely accounted (namely galaxies of dark matter, etc.). I'd like to think that parsimony allows for the response, "we don't know... yet."
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Post by Rye »

How you can go from "we don't know" to "a sentient being organised it somehow" I don't quite grasp. Unknown undiscovered processes, like the ones that result in life, we have no reason to assume arethinknig entities.
Terr Fangbite wrote:I just think its stupid to assume the perfect world must be perfect in our views.
Of course, ifyou're going to say God is perfect on his own terms and not ours, you really have no business calling him perfect at all, since you'd be equivocating the term.

Yoiu might as well say God is morbidly obese, but not in man's terms, on his own terms.
Queeb Salaron wrote:What makes us think that creation is finished?
Mainly, because it doesn't look like anything intelligent is involved in designing anything. Therefore it's either finished or it requires maturation by being left alone to culture, like cheese.

Trying to second guess an unknown nonfactual entity with unknown possibly arbitrary motivations is an exercise in futility.

Humans aren't the only tool users, what we do is an outgrowth of a popular trait among apes and primates in general.
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Post by Queeb Salaron »

Rye wrote:How you can go from "we don't know" to "a sentient being organised it somehow" I don't quite grasp. Unknown undiscovered processes, like the ones that result in life, we have no reason to assume arethinknig entities.
That's funny, because I just got through explaining that I wasn't necessarily talking about a sentient being at all. :wink:
Mainly, because it doesn't look like anything intelligent is involved in designing anything. Therefore it's either finished or it requires maturation by being left alone to culture, like cheese.
Fair enough point. But just because it doesn't LOOK like there's anything intelligent involved doesn't mean there ISN'T. I'm not claiming that there is, of course, just pointing it out. We can't use "It doesn't look like..." as a valid argument, that's all.
Trying to second guess an unknown nonfactual entity with unknown possibly arbitrary motivations is an exercise in futility.
Futility, rhetoric... you say tomato, I say tomato.
Humans aren't the only tool users, what we do is an outgrowth of a popular trait among apes and primates in general.
Also a fair point. I guess the point I was trying to make is that life was not created to sustain itself. That we were able to was an accident of chance, and that we continue to be able to is an accident of intellect.
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Post by Rye »

Queeb Salaron wrote: That's funny, because I just got through explaining that I wasn't necessarily talking about a sentient being at all.
You contradict what you said originally, then:
you wrote:I believe that life was created not by chance, but by some fatalistic intervention on the behalf of some otherworldly force.
Without sentience/intent, it's precisely "chance" that made us.
Fair enough point. But just because it doesn't LOOK like there's anything intelligent involved doesn't mean there ISN'T. I'm not claiming that there is, of course, just pointing it out. We can't use "It doesn't look like..." as a valid argument, that's all.
Why not? There shouldn't be an absence of evidence if we're an artificial creation, or things are still being artificially created.
Futility, rhetoric... you say tomato, I say tomato.
Pointless waste of time in any language.
Also a fair point. I guess the point I was trying to make is that life was not created to sustain itself.
Life emerged as a product of organic chemistry, and continues by the same method. There's nothing about it that implies "intent" at all.
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Post by Queeb Salaron »

Rye, you're missing this... I'm moving forward from a Christian premise, using it to contradict other Christian premesis. Yeah, I'm talking about God (and rewording it to make the concept easier to swallow on this board -- and perhaps to myself), but the only reason I am doing so is to relate it back to a Christian premise.

We're kind of arguing the same points here. Yours are the logical conclusions to mine, is all.
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Post by sketerpot »

Terr Fangbite wrote:Meh. Maybe he knows something that we don't. I just think its stupid to assume the perfect world must be perfect in our views.
That smells like a special pleading fallacy. If God is allegedly perfect, and he created a world which he has found many problems (imperfections) in, then there's clearly a contradiction unless you apply special rules to God. That's what you're trying to do, with your hazy "Maybe he knows something that we don't" argument.

However, I'd say that the best source for showing that God is imperfect is the Bible. In Exodus, God got pissed at the Israelites and decided to kill them all, but Moses was able to talk the "perfect" God out of it, and God "repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people". I ask you, is this the action of a perfect God? Or will you argue that God has some alternate spin on this which would make perfect sense if it weren't beyond our mortal understanding?

Or perhaps you will say that we shouldn't take all of the Bible literally, so we should ignore the parts you don't like. This is very popular, but if you can do it then so can I, and far more plausibly: what if God is just an egotistical but not omnipotent being who was created through means unknown along with the universe, who did a bunch of stuff to make him look cool and then had his followers embellish them over the years? [Note: I don't actually believe this, I just think it's more plausible than the more popular non-literal spins on the Bible.]
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Post by Franc28 »

The main point is that the fact that the universe is badly designed (if you believe in design) points to a natural, unguided process, not to a designer. Therefore the assumed design in the universe cannot be used as evidence for a Creator.

Bad design is COMPATIBLE with a Creator only because the notion of a Creator is undefined and therefore compatible with anything - but that's a fault of the belief, not of the evidence. Something that is unfalsifiable is not scientific. Insofar as bad design supports natural processes more than it does a Creator, the question is irrelevant anyway.
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Post by Terr Fangbite »

That smells like a special pleading fallacy. If God is allegedly perfect, and he created a world which he has found many problems (imperfections) in, then there's clearly a contradiction unless you apply special rules to God. That's what you're trying to do, with your hazy "Maybe he knows something that we don't" argument.
Nah. I'm just bringing up something which most people don't concider. If you don't believe he's perfect thats your thing. However, you have yet to that the imperfect world isn't perfect. Strife, problems etc let us grow, make us better people. You wouldn't know joy without saddness. You couldn't know a genious without the moron.
However, I'd say that the best source for showing that God is imperfect is the Bible. In Exodus, God got pissed at the Israelites and decided to kill them all, but Moses was able to talk the "perfect" God out of it, and God "repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people". I ask you, is this the action of a perfect God? Or will you argue that God has some alternate spin on this which would make perfect sense if it weren't beyond our mortal understanding?
See arguement below.
Or perhaps you will say that we shouldn't take all of the Bible literally, so we should ignore the parts you don't like.
Nope. However I do believe something else you might claim cop out anyway. See below.
This is very popular, but if you can do it then so can I, and far more plausibly:
Actually since I don't do it then by your statement neither can you. Funny that.
what if God is just an egotistical but not omnipotent being who was created through means unknown along with the universe, who did a bunch of stuff to make him look cool and then had his followers embellish them over the years? [Note: I don't actually believe this, I just think it's more plausible than the more popular non-literal spins on the Bible.]
Sorta what I believe. He's my take on the bible:

The bible is full of problems. You've stated one such thing. If god is perfect how could he repent? Isn't repenting the act of making right a wrong? Perfect beings can't do wrong. My feelings is that the bible has been taken through too many hands. Ever play the game telephone? Its like that.

Before the printing press, the passages etc were hand written, copied by hundreds if not more people in a long chain. Each time its copied, there is a chance that a person made a mistake. Maybe he translated the hebrew word eat, to the latin, english etc word take. Maybe he mispelled there to their. Now take those errors and compound them by a hundred people.

Next, with all these hands you have the person who doesn't like some part of the bible. A priest who is recording the passage in exodus may see god being too perfect and this is why his parish (or whatever they called them) can't relate to god. So he puts in the repenting part so that god isn't too perfect and could be more easily related to the common folk.

Also with many of the books, they are written years after the events happened. The further the years from the event, the more cloudy things become. Thus with human error, things get messed up with the stories. Maybe instead of the israelites destroying 1000 men with 500, they cripple an army of 1million with 10 crippled old men. This is also due to part of being a story teller. Which sounds more "cool"? The first or second scenario?

Thus the bible is not a perfect book. It is not complete, flawless etc. Each moron who claims such needs to get a reality check.
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Post by Queeb Salaron »

coughtheOPdoesntmuchtalkaboutthebiblecough.
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Post by sketerpot »

Terr Fangbite wrote:
That smells like a special pleading fallacy. If God is allegedly perfect, and he created a world which he has found many problems (imperfections) in, then there's clearly a contradiction unless you apply special rules to God. That's what you're trying to do, with your hazy "Maybe he knows something that we don't" argument.
Nah. I'm just bringing up something which most people don't concider. If you don't believe he's perfect thats your thing. However, you have yet to that the imperfect world isn't perfect. Strife, problems etc let us grow, make us better people. You wouldn't know joy without saddness. You couldn't know a genious without the moron.
And you wouldn't know about sanitation if it weren't for the continuing presence of South American villages that get their water from the same place they dump their shit. You wouldn't enjoy your house if terrorists hadn't destroyed the World Trade Center. This isn't making any sense. All that is what I would call senseless bad luck, and it's exactly what you would expect to see from pure chance. Your rationalization for God's behavior, for someone who doesn't already believe it, is no more plausible than Chef's rationalization:
South Park wrote:Stan : "Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny's my friend. Why can't God take someone else's friend?"
Chef : "Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He's all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can't get over it, so he doesn't care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don't matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?"
Stan : "But then, why does God give us anything to start with?"
Chef : "Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin' to cry about. That's like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it's our tears, Stan, that give God his great power."
Stan : "I thnk I understand."
Both of these claim that things which could be explained by random chance are due to God's motives, and both of these can be supported by parts of the Bible.
Terr Fangbite wrote:
what if God is just an egotistical but not omnipotent being who was created through means unknown along with the universe, who did a bunch of stuff to make him look cool and then had his followers embellish them over the years? [Note: I don't actually believe this, I just think it's more plausible than the more popular non-literal spins on the Bible.]
Sorta what I believe. He's my take on the bible:

The bible is full of problems. You've stated one such thing. If god is perfect how could he repent? Isn't repenting the act of making right a wrong? Perfect beings can't do wrong. My feelings is that the bible has been taken through too many hands. Ever play the game telephone? Its like that.
So here are two interpretations of the part in Exodus that I cited:

1. God is perfect and the Bible is in error in places which imply otherwise, for one of the reasons you cite below.
2. God is imperfect and the Bible is in error in other places.

Which do you choose, and why?
Thus the bible is not a perfect book. It is not complete, flawless etc. Each moron who claims such needs to get a reality check.
So how accurate is it? It looks like you're just looking at the parts you want to believe and using the fact of Biblical errancy to dismiss parts you don't like. That's fine if you believe in the good parts, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Suppose that you're observing the qualities of different kinds of wood glues and you discover that the containers of glue that you gathered all your data from had been diluted with water in different unknown quantities. Some, if not all, of your data is now worthless. Do you:

1. Decide which data to throw out based on preconceptions of the different glue characteristics, and hope that you threw out the right data, OR
2. Ditch the whole damn thing and start over from carefully collected, uncontaminated data.
Queeb Salaron wrote:coughtheOPdoesntmuchtalkaboutthebiblecough.
Sorry that we've gone off the original topic a little, but we're still talking about the perfection, or lack thereof, of God.
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Post by Queeb Salaron »

sketerpot wrote:And you wouldn't know about sanitation if it weren't for the continuing presence of South American villages that get their water from the same place they dump their shit. You wouldn't enjoy your house if terrorists hadn't destroyed the World Trade Center. This isn't making any sense. All that is what I would call senseless bad luck, and it's exactly what you would expect to see from pure chance. Your rationalization for God's behavior, for someone who doesn't already believe it, is no more plausible than Chef's rationalization:
South Park wrote:snip
Both of these claim that things which could be explained by random chance are due to God's motives, and both of these can be supported by parts of the Bible.
For some reason, the authors of the bible don't deal well with the concept of pure chance and blind luck.

Except in the case of David. IIRC, there's nothing in the Good Book that says that the rock he threw at Goliath was guided by God's hand, nor does it mention that David was particularly good with a slingshot. I guess that was just dumb luck.
Terr Fangbite wrote:So here are two interpretations of the part in Exodus that I cited:

1. God is perfect and the Bible is in error in places which imply otherwise, for one of the reasons you cite below.
2. God is imperfect and the Bible is in error in other places.

Which do you choose, and why?
The second, certainly (assuming that God exists, which never flies well on this board). Therefore, if God is imperfect, he does not exist in the sense that Christians say he does, and therefore the whole concept of God is called into question. Man was created in a state of evil (nakedness) after all.
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Post by Terr Fangbite »

And you wouldn't know about sanitation if it weren't for the continuing presence of South American villages that get their water from the same place they dump their shit. You wouldn't enjoy your house if terrorists hadn't destroyed the World Trade Center.
You more or less get the jig.
This isn't making any sense. All that is what I would call senseless bad luck, and it's exactly what you would expect to see from pure chance. Your rationalization for God's behavior, for someone who doesn't already believe it, is no more plausible than Chef's rationalization:
Missed my point. You claim that if the world is imperfect God must be imperfect. I was stating that the world is imperfect so we can grow, become better people etc. So maybe the perfect world for us to become the best we can become is a world inwhich things do not always work out as we hope.
Both of these claim that things which could be explained by random chance are due to God's motives, and both of these can be supported by parts of the Bible.
However I'm arguing against your claim that god is imperfect due to a crummy world. What I'm claiming is that crummy world don't mean crummy god.
So here are two interpretations of the part in Exodus that I cited:

1. God is perfect and the Bible is in error in places which imply otherwise, for one of the reasons you cite below.
2. God is imperfect and the Bible is in error in other places.

Which do you choose, and why?
I choose door number 1.

If you must ask reasons then you didn't read where I argued against a perfect bible.
So how accurate is it? It looks like you're just looking at the parts you want to believe and using the fact of Biblical errancy to dismiss parts you don't like. That's fine if you believe in the good parts, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Just as a note I'm mormon. I believe in current revelation from god and that the bible isn't the only testament of Jesus etc. Thusly, the bible's errors can be determined by the more up to date works by prophets. I've never understood why people think the bible is the say all...
Suppose that you're observing the qualities of different kinds of wood glues and you discover that the containers of glue that you gathered all your data from had been diluted with water in different unknown quantities. Some, if not all, of your data is now worthless. Do you:

1. Decide which data to throw out based on preconceptions of the different glue characteristics, and hope that you threw out the right data, OR
2. Ditch the whole damn thing and start over from carefully collected, uncontaminated data.
Unfortuneatly for you the bible is not science, it is a religous history. A better analogy would be if you know that a eye witness is 50% accurate, do you discredit everything he says since you can't determine what is accurate or what is not? Most people say no. You get other eye witnesses and compare their stories to get a more complete and accurate picture. The bible is a recording of observations by eye witnesses most of the time. The best method is to find other eye witnesses. Hence my belief in other religious texts.
coughtheOPdoesntmuchtalkaboutthebiblecough.
Gomen. I was disputing evidence used to prove god is perfect.
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Queeb Salaron
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Post by Queeb Salaron »

Terr, how do you reconcile the perfectness of God with the objective fact that man was created in a state of evil (prior to the eating of the tree)? Wouldn't a perfect God have made his highest creation without the pretense of evil? If he didn't, was it because he was unable to, or because he chose for his penultimate creation to be, in fact, evil, if ignorant to that evil?
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Terr Fangbite
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Post by Terr Fangbite »

Terr, how do you reconcile the perfectness of God with the objective fact that man was created in a state of evil (prior to the eating of the tree)? Wouldn't a perfect God have made his highest creation without the pretense of evil? If he didn't, was it because he was unable to, or because he chose for his penultimate creation to be, in fact, evil, if ignorant to that evil?
Innocent not ignorant.

God put them there in a state of innocence (or if you're going to be nitpicky, ignorance) as a stepping stone. Man (i.e. all humans) needed someplace to begin, so like a child, s/he began oblivious to evil. Along the line a choice came through. The choice was presented by a slivering thing which wears vampire fangs. The choice was simple. Live in innocence and stagnation, or eat the apple and get a chance to become smarter, better etc. Eve and Adam chose the latter according to genesis. The apple was a two edged sword however. While you'd get all these benefits, you no longer get the protection of God. Things won't be perfect anymore. God's commandment wasn't "do not eat the apple" it was "eat the apple and you can't be with me anymore". Everything is about choice. Adam and Eve chose to abandon a perfect world, for a world inwhich they and their offspring would be able to grow through strife.
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Post by Franc28 »

This is all fairy tale. Man came from evolution. Not from Adam and Eve.
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Queeb Salaron
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Post by Queeb Salaron »

Terr Fangbite wrote:God put them there in a state of innocence (or if you're going to be nitpicky, ignorance) as a stepping stone. Man (i.e. all humans) needed someplace to begin, so like a child, s/he began oblivious to evil. Along the line a choice came through. The choice was presented by a slivering thing which wears vampire fangs. The choice was simple. Live in innocence and stagnation, or eat the apple and get a chance to become smarter, better etc. Eve and Adam chose the latter according to genesis. The apple was a two edged sword however. While you'd get all these benefits, you no longer get the protection of God. Things won't be perfect anymore. God's commandment wasn't "do not eat the apple" it was "eat the apple and you can't be with me anymore". Everything is about choice. Adam and Eve chose to abandon a perfect world, for a world inwhich they and their offspring would be able to grow through strife.
I'm specifically referring to nudity. God created Adam and Eve nude, and after eating the fruit of the tree, they knew that nudity was bad. God did not tell them that it wasn't bad: after all, this was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and if they wanted to cover up their nudity, it stands to reason that nudity is evil. Erego, man was created in a state of evil.
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Post by VT-16 »

The universe simply is. It is neither perfect nor imperfect. Religious institutions are the only ones who try to convince people that there is such a thing as a "paradise" where everything is better.

This universe contains the elements to make it either a heaven, a purgatory, a limbo or a hell for people, it´s up to us to decide what we want to make of it.
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