Why do the crime?

[Stravo]

I've been watching alot of cop dramas over the last few months (CSI, CSI Miami, The Wire, Heat, etc) and what struck me as I watched these is the motivation of the criminals. Why do the cime? Absent crimes of passion It seems to me that if you pull off something big like a bank robbery or a major crime spree you will most likley be caught. If you run a drug empire, eventually you will go down and spend the rest of your life in jail. SO why take that chance? Why start down that path?

In Heat, Neil McCually (Deniro) has done several stints in jail and continues to do the crime, in several instances rationalizing it as "It's worth the stretch" meaning jail time doesn't frighten him. Yet paradoxically goes down fighting because he'll never go back later on in the movie - go figure. In the Wire (FANTASTIC HBO series, probably better than any later season Sopranos) the drug lord knows he might go down and plans out how his empire will run if he has to go to jail.

Frankly, jail scares the living shit out of me. Why not try to lead a normal life and avoid that entirely or is it a matter of they have nothing else, or this is the lifestyle they've been raised in and maybe even jail isn't that bad for these guys?

[Melchior]

SO why take that chance? Why start down that path?

In reality, I don't think that most criminals get caught.
Also, when you commit a crime, or you don't care about getting caught, or, for some reason, you are sure that it will not happen.
Only people who don't care or are capable of auto-convincing about not getting caught commit certain crimes.

[NecronLord]

Cop dramas as a source of evidence?

*Slaps Stavro upside the head*

As for why people take to robbing and such like, I would imagine that they tend to imagine they're hot enough to not get caught.

[Imperial Overlord]

A lot of them aren't that smart or expect not to do much time. A lot of time they are crimes of impulse. David Simon's book Homicide: Life of the Street breaks down the outcomes of a year worth of homicides in Baltimore. Some cases aren't solved, some are dropped from lack of evidence, some are beaten, some are pleaded down, and so on and so forth. Adding up all the homicides (negligence and manslaughter included) and dividing it by the time and you have an average of four years per death.

Remember, a lot of people are feeding drug habits and don't have straight jobs that allow them to afford it. So they have to get the money. And jail is probably less scary after you've been there once or twice and know the ropes.

As for Heat, De Niro said it was worth the risk, not the time. He was expecting to do his retirement score. He was throwing the dice, all or nothing.

[Rye]

It's actually an awful lot of fun playing a villain in real life. I recall documentaries on guys that were nudercover, and the criminals they hung out with honestly did have lots of fun playing the baddie.

Plus there's quite a bit of money to be made for little work. Plus it's a lot of fun, running on adrenaline after you do something you know society deems wrong.

On the other hand, lots of people are addicts, lazy, stupid and crime's much more accessible than real life.

[Queeb Salaron]

Not to tout the teachings of one of my professors (Brace for shameless plug!!) But Jack Levin writes about this very topic in a number of his books. He's considered one of the leading officials in criminology in the states. Check him out via Amazon or some such.

[Petrosjko]

God, I could write an essay, but I probably don't have the time.

First off, it is the lifestyle. If one comes from a crime-ridden area, one knows plenty of people who've done their stretch. That they'll end up in jail is regarded as a simple, albeit unpleasant, fact of life.

And once they've done that first stretch, it's all downhill. Because whatever prospects of decent employment were available have dried up, so now it's off to flipping burgers for minimum wage. Compare that to say muling drugs, and while the risk level is higher and the money isn't really all that much better, the short hours and quick hit of tax-free cash is certainly more alluring.

It is really amazing how far people will fall into this rut where they'll do anything to avoid making a legit living. They'll bust their asses and run all sorts of stupid risks, never stopping to think that applying that same sort of effort to a real job would actually gain them some sort of security. But they get so wired against thinking in those terms that it's positively frightening to contemplate legal employment.

Toss in the fact that the peer group is also pretty much uniformly criminal, it makes it incredibly hard to break out of.

It is a lifestyle. A nasty, brutal, and generally short one.

[Terr Fangbite]

Its like gambling. Some people think the payoff of the crime is worth the risk of getting caught. Don't ask me why they believe that. Also crime usually pays better than doing legit business.

[Petrosjko]

Also crime usually pays better than doing legit business.

Yes and no.

Crime offers the potential for the quick hit of cash. But it's sporadic, not consistant.

Then you toss in the inevitable lawyer fees, probation fees, etc., etc., and it's not profitable for shit. Especially if you have drinking/smoking/drug habits to sustain.

There are criminals who actually make money, but as a rule they wear suits and clean out companies. The average street criminal as Stravo is talking about here starts out broke and ends up broke.

[Stofsk]

Actually Petro he's not. Stravo is talking about the professional criminals not the petty thugs. Petty thugs don't do big bank robberies or a major crime spree, or run drug empires.

Why do the crime?

Because it pays. That's all it is.

As Petro said though, it's quick cash with enormous risk. So IOW, it isn't the smartest way to make money. But really, what other motivation is there? Who the hell wants to be a hitman, or drug smuggler?

[Sean Howard]

I saw a documentary on HBO a few years back. It showed several guys getting released from prison, then following them around for 4 years or so.

One guy was preaching about how great he would do, how he was going straight, etc. The parole board (or whatever) set him up with a job in a warehouse, gets him into an apartment, everything looks great right? He walks off his job after 6 hours the FIRST DAMN DAY of work, goes and scores some heroin, and is right back to living on the streets as a junkie.

So now the guy is running from parole violation. If, or I should say when, he gets caught, he gets to do the rest of his sentence, which is several years.

All the guy had to do was go to work and call his parole officer every so often, and he'd be set. But he just doesn't give a fuck. Which is clearly demonstrated later in the show where he catches AIDS and is shooting up into abcesses on his legs.

If they had just kept the dumbass in prison for his whole life, he'd have been better off, as fucked up as that sounds.

[Stofsk]

[EDIT] If not for the money, I meant to add.

[jcow79]

Also crime usually pays better than doing legit business.

Yes and no.

Crime offers the potential for the quick hit of cash. But it's sporadic, not consistant.

Then you toss in the inevitable lawyer fees, probation fees, etc., etc., and it's not profitable for shit. Especially if you have drinking/smoking/drug habits to sustain.

There are criminals who actually make money, but as a rule they wear suits and clean out companies. The average street criminal as Stravo is talking about here starts out broke and ends up broke.

There was a really good program on NPR today about the gangs being run out of the California prison system. As far as gang life is concerned prison is an inevitability and even a right of passage. The scary thing is that the leaders of these gangs who have received life sentences have a form of legal immunity to commit further crimes. Their perspective is that they're already incarcerated for life, what more can they do to me? The organizations these people are running are very lucrative, suprisingly complex and well organized.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4525733

[Sean Howard]

The scary thing is that the leaders of these gangs who have received life sentences have a form of legal immunity to commit further crimes. Their perspective is that they're already incarcerated for life, what more can they do to me?

That immunity only goes so far. After all, they do have the death penalty, but I guess the people you're talking about aren't the ones getting their hands dirty.

Also, they do have supermax prisons where you are stuck in a cell, by yourself, 23 hours a day. The hope for a lifer is to live out his days in a low security facility rather than get transferred to a supermax for disciplinary problems.

My understanding is, often, the lifers become more reasonable people because the only thing they have is time, and they don't want it to become "hard time".

[Petrosjko]

Actually Petro he's not. Stravo is talking about the professional criminals not the petty thugs. Petty thugs don't do big bank robberies or a major crime spree, or run drug empires.

Well, with the upper tier guys, at least around these parts, it's a fairly simple matter. They have a slightly larger helping of brains and ambition than the common lowlife, but again after that first stretch they're marked. So the one field they can progress in is professional thuggery.

There was a really good program on NPR today about the gangs being run out of the California prison system. As far as gang life is concerned prison is an inevitability and even a right of passage. The scary thing is that the leaders of these gangs who have received life sentences have a form of legal immunity to commit further crimes. Their perspective is that they're already incarcerated for life, what more can they do to me? The organizations these people are running are very lucrative, suprisingly complex and well organized.

There is a certain 'getting your cherry popped' aspect to doing time, especially in a state pen. But while it is an inevitability, they will fight every frickin' step of the way to get out from under it.

As for lifers taking liberties due to already being in prison, I would say that's mostly a prison urban myth, for the reasons Sean Howard said. Remember that in this sort of anarchic community, the image of toughness really is everything.

Not to say that there aren't those who don't go down that road, though. These aren't the sort of people noted for their foresight and deep thought processes.

[jcow79]

The scary thing is that the leaders of these gangs who have received life sentences have a form of legal immunity to commit further crimes. Their perspective is that they're already incarcerated for life, what more can they do to me?

That immunity only goes so far. After all, they do have the death penalty, but I guess the people you're talking about aren't the ones getting their hands dirty.

Also, they do have supermax prisons where you are stuck in a cell, by yourself, 23 hours a day. The hope for a lifer is to live out his days in a low security facility rather than get transferred to a supermax for disciplinary problems.

My understanding is, often, the lifers become more reasonable people because the only thing they have is time, and they don't want it to become "hard time".

Actually the program spoke specifically of the supermax prisons, Pelican Bay to be exact. Basically the leaders were finding more and more complex ways of running their organizations from within the supermax prisons. It's somewhat off topic so I won't go into detail but I'd recommend listening to the program from the link I provided. It was very interesting.

[Petrosjko]

Actually the program spoke specifically of the supermax prisons, Pelican Bay to be exact. Basically the leaders were finding more and more complex ways of running their organizations from within the supermax prisons. It's somewhat off topic so I won't go into detail but I'd recommend listening to the program from the link I provided. It was very interesting.

Can't really do that on my crappy bandwidth, but I get ya.

That's the old 'run the show from in the pen' routine. That particular racket probably goes back to Babylon.

[Mayabird]

Adding to what people have already said, as Perinquus (I believe he's the cop here) has said before, most criminals are just stupid. 99% of drug users/dealers he catches claim that they are just borrowing whatever article of clothing that the drugs are found in. (aka "These ain't my pants." "That ain't my underwear" when a crackpipe was found in someone's buttcrack. Etc.) These aren't exactly people who'll think long and hard about the situation and decide whether or not it would be profitable to commit a crime or not.

[jcow79]

I wonder if a lot of the white collar criminals convince themselves that what they are doing isn't a crime and maybe just creative accounting?

[aerius]

There's several kinds of criminals. The first are the dumbass ones that Mayabird just mentioned. They do it because they need something and don't want to or can't pay for it. These are your typical junkies and ghetto gangsters. Their thought process more or less goes "I want something, I'm gonna take it, kill someone, mug the fucker" and that's where it ends. The possibility of getting caught and going to jail don't even enter into it, even if they have been caught in the past and gone to jail.

Next are the ones who supplement their income so to speak. They have jobs and may even live rather well, but sometimes they don't feel like paying for stuff or maybe they need some quick cash from time to time. So maybe they'll steal some computer parts every now & then to upgrade their home computers or deal some drugs or stolen goods on the side. These people generally know what they're doing is wrong and try not to get caught, some with more success than others.

Then there's the professional criminals. These guys are in it for the money, they put as much thought & planning into commiting crimes as Special Forces teams put into planning operations. They know that unless something goes incredibly wrong they won't get caught, and even then they have ways of serving minimum jailtime. My sources in the industry say that if you know what you're doing, your chances of getting away clean from a bank robbery is over 99%, with the average haul being around $4000-5000. Easy money. Same thing with robbing jewelery stores, slightly higher risk, but the payoff from one job can last several years. Same with computer chips & parts. Get an insider in FedEx, UPS, or Customs and you can do some real damage. The shipping services park their trucks in lightly guarded yards at night, if you know which truck has the goods, hit it at night and you could be an instant millionaire. Crime pays.

[Petrosjko]

I wonder if a lot of the white collar criminals convince themselves that what they are doing isn't a crime and maybe just creative accounting?

I'd think it comes from a couple of sources. First, oftentimes it's a big company with millions of dollars, and so 'they're not going to miss a few thousand dollars siphoned off for me' and second 'the company screws everyone anyway, I'll screw them back!'

Of course, that's for the penny-ante types, the under six-figures crowd. The big boys... probably are far enough out there that they don't much need to grope around for justifications, and the score is perceived to be big enough to justify the risks.

[Petrosjko]

Then there's the professional criminals. These guys are in it for the money, they put as much thought & planning into commiting crimes as Special Forces teams put into planning operations. They know that unless something goes incredibly wrong they won't get caught, and even then they have ways of serving minimum jailtime. My sources in the industry say that if you know what you're doing, your chances of getting away clean from a bank robbery is over 99%, with the average haul being around $4000-5000. Easy money. Same thing with robbing jewelery stores, slightly higher risk, but the payoff from one job can last several years. Same with computer chips & parts. Get an insider in FedEx, UPS, or Customs and you can do some real damage. The shipping services park their trucks in lightly guarded yards at night, if you know which truck has the goods, hit it at night and you could be an instant millionaire. Crime pays.

Are those Canadian stats on the bank robberies et al? I heard that a grotesquely huge portion of US bank robbers get caught, as compared to a similarly large portion of white collar criminals never getting caught?

As for shipping services, there's a number of angles on that, and it's another Red Queen scenario with regards to security vs. countermeasures. That was something they drilled us on constantly when I was in the biz.

[aerius]

Are those Canadian stats on the bank robberies et al? I heard that a grotesquely huge portion of US bank robbers get caught, as compared to a similarly large portion of white collar criminals never getting caught?

Yup. They're not really formal stats, but it's a general agreement from sources within the banking industry & law enforcement that if a person knows what he's doing and doesn't get greedy, the only way they're going to catch him is via a pure fluke. Fortunately most bank robbers are retarded, they rob too many banks in too short a time in too small an area, and they usually get nailed within a month to a year at most.

As for shipping services, there's a number of angles on that, and it's another Red Queen scenario with regards to security vs. countermeasures. That was something they drilled us on constantly when I was in the biz.

When I worked in the Customs postal facility, some guys were running a multi-million dollar drug ring out of our warehouse & sorting building. With an insider, the potential for damage & profit is unreal.

[Petrosjko]

Yup. They're not really formal stats, but it's a general agreement from sources within the banking industry & law enforcement that if a person knows what he's doing and doesn't get greedy, the only way they're going to catch him is via a pure fluke. Fortunately most bank robbers are retarded, they rob too many banks in too short a time in too small an area, and they usually get nailed within a month to a year at most.

Hadn't considered that last part of it. Good point.

When I worked in the Customs postal facility, some guys were running a multi-million dollar drug ring out of our warehouse & sorting building. With an insider, the potential for damage & profit is unreal.

Oh yeah. My first trucking company had something like three or four million dollars blow straight out of their yard near LA in about a month's time. Fuckers were going over the fence, grabbing the hi-val loads, and going straight through the gate.

Finally they ended up sticking in a godawful expensive retractible concrete barrier system. The consensus was that a Freightliner Classic with a reasonable head of steam might plow through that, but with the well-smashed radiator and front end, it wouldn't get much further under its own power, as well as being nice and easy for the cops to spot.

[Vicious]

As I understand, Bank robberies are a hell of alot harder to pull off here in the states, but convenience store knockovers et al are common (they are in my area) and often go unpunished. If someone can find numbers that'd be great. I'll try looking tomorrow and see if I can find some actual figures.