Why is there no proof for psychokinesis

[Dooey Jo]

I recently got directed to ww.psipog.net, where they teach how to do psychokinesis and other such stuff (actually, they just say "just do it" most of the time but nevermind that). They also have videos of people spinning "psiwheels" and levitating stuff.

Now, the question is, if these people really can do these things, why don't they go to a place where they are researching these things scientifically? They seem pretty confident that it's real, so why not doing it controlled environments so real theories about this can be worked out? It's just that everytime I run across sites like the above, I have to read through all that "quantum psionic psychomagnetheric plasma energy" crap they're always talking about, which is nothing short of regular technobabble.

Do I already know the answer to my question? Are they all frauds?


Oh yeah, one more thing. Why is it called "pyrokinesis"? WTF is that supposed to mean? "Movement of fire"? It should be "psychopyrosis", damnit (that actually sounds pretty cool. I think I'll TM it...).

[DPDarkPrimus]

They're all fakes. Not necessarily frauds. Frauds know they are fakes. Some people honestly believe they've got powers.

[FOG3]

Lets put it this way, the 1 million dollar prize for anyone proving they're psychic is uncollected.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Lets put it this way, the 1 million dollar prize for anyone proving they're psychic is uncollected.

Ah, but Randi creates a "negative energy" that inteferes with their powers.

[Franc28]

I wrote a review of Psipog for Insolitology. They didn't like that.[/url]

[Antares]

Anyway it's a cool inspiration for RPG ^^
That's why i downloaded it

[Jalinth]

Lets put it this way, the 1 million dollar prize for anyone proving they're psychic is uncollected.

And will stay uncollected. The testing conditions they would impose should be stringent enough that it would be extremely difficult to impossible. I'd like to see them try - I'd be shocked if they even made it passed the first stage, let alone the final testing stage.

[Tasoth]

IIRC, both the US and USSR did research into psychic abilities for use in espionage way back in the early bits of the cold war. They got a resounding 'negatory' for proof of their existence.

[Stofsk]

IIRC, both the US and USSR did research into psychic abilities for use in espionage way back in the early bits of the cold war. They got a resounding 'negatory' for proof of their existence.

That's what they want you to think.

[Robert Walper]

And there's always that good reason that those who actually do have some power in that fashion wouldn't dare let anyone in on it for fear of becoming a scientific guinea pig...*whistles innocently*

[VT-16]

"Scientific Guinea Pig" is just another bullshit excuse. I´ve got a couple of bozos on a Norwegian board who says their involved in certain circles that deal with supernatural powers. They just don´t want to show these powers in full view and under controlled cirumstances, that´s all.

Oh, and scientific methods are wrong, you need their special form of science to get the proper results.

[Steven Snyder]

Another way of looking at this would be this...

If there were TK's or Mind Readers in our society we wouldn't be searching for them like a needle in a haystack. Instead you would be bowing and worshipping them as deities (especially the latter), as they would only do what would come natural to homo-superior living in a homo-sapien world.

What do you suppose would happen if there were children in our schools who realized they could anonymously crush the heart, throat, or other internal organs of people they don't like? Do you think they would use this power for 'good' or would they realize they were superior, on a whole new level, to the rest of mankind?

And the cults that would form...people who think this TK is the second coming or something. Sprinkle him with a bit of christian sparkle and see how many fundamentalists would lay down their lives to promote and protect him.

If there were TKs in society we would definately know about it in short order.

[Styphon]

you know TK doesn't necessarily imply Jean Grey shit...

there's lower level stuff, like being able to consciously affect the outcome of a dice roll...

[Durandal]

there's lower level stuff, like being able to consciously affect the outcome of a dice roll...

Yes, and curiously, despite being "lower level," it's still just as big an amount of bullshit.

[Styphon]

I'm just saying that if there were psychokinesis, it wouldn't necessarily mean ubermensch running around crushing peoples organs for no reason...

[Nick Lancaster]

Some things to kick around. I am not claiming there is or is not telekinetic ability, but I've yet to see it proven.

Fine vs. Gross

That is, the level to which a psychokinetic may affect their environment. The theorized government use, often dramatized as the 'hidden assassin' who can 'pinch a major artery shut' (Laurel, in the comic book,Rising Stars) would be 'fine' control as opposed to Darth Vader lobbing boxes at Luke Skywalker, demonstrating 'gross' control.

Yet, does fine necessarily mean small? Would Gary Mitchell's display of filling a water glass in TOS: 'Where No Man Has Gone Before' qualify as fine, or gross?

Line of Sight vs. Ranged

Does the telekinetic need to see the object to manipulate it? If so, how can the 'pinch a major artery shut' trick work? Is visualization sufficient?

Government Conspiracy

Right, so the government rounded up some promising candidates and plumbed the depths of their telekinetic ability. If 'fine' control existed or could be trained, subject would be encouraged to work for the government. Said subjects would 'drop off the radar,' and their presence concealed, so there are no records of such experiments, therefore, they did exist and were suppressed. (Note the absence of proof = proof of suppression flaw.)

Negative Vibes

And, if folks like James Randi generate some mystical anti-psi field, or we give credence to the 'shy powers' theory, why would any government studies result in success? It follows that there would be significant amounts of skepticism, and if it were claimed that the subject could actually injure or kill a target, this would have to be demonstrated in front of skeptics, under pressure - the very conditions that seems to make powers flake out or take unannounced leaves of absence.

Spigot Model vs. Force of Will

By 'spigot model,' I am suggesting an on/off process. I want to move object x, I concentrate and expend energy to move object x. Without the effort, the power does not manifest.

Or do we have the 'force of will' model, meaning the power is bucking and surging all the time, and it's only through force of will that our telekinetic does not create a poltergeist-like effect?

If the latter, how is it that the power remains dormant during sleep? Is it governed in the same manner as our movements during sleep, i.e. attenuated?

=====

Again, this is all bullshit for the sake of discussion, though I wonder if the 'telekinetic researchers' have answers for any of this.

[Cykeisme]

The logical conclusion from the situation is that they probably don't exist. It's a nice fantasy, but that's all it apparently is.

you know TK doesn't necessarily imply Jean Grey shit...

there's lower level stuff, like being able to consciously affect the outcome of a dice roll...

Yes, and curiously, despite being "lower level," it's still just as big an amount of bullshit.

I should think it would be more difficult to affect the up facing side of a rapidly rolling die, as opposed to simply moving a stationary object. So it would be higher level. Meaning it would be higher level bullshit.

[Molyneux]

There's always the possibility that preternatural abilities and the like did provably exist at one point, but (for whatever reason) are no longer available; one of my more occult-ish friend believes that magic was sealed away entire at some point during the fourteenth or fifteenth century.

Then again, that friend also believes that the seal will be broken within the next five to ten years, so that theory should be provable/disprovable if we wait for awhile...

There also remains the possibility of more subtly affecting the environment (as in Wiccan magic), through altering probability, for example.

[sketerpot]

There's always the possibility that preternatural abilities and the like did provably exist at one point, but (for whatever reason) are no longer available; one of my more occult-ish friend believes that magic was sealed away entire at some point during the fourteenth or fifteenth century.

There's always the possibility that an unspeakable evil lies buried inside my ass, implanted by alien terrorists who want to wipe out all life on earth as a message to all those who refuse to pay tribute to their mighty empire.

There's always the possibility that Eris will suddenly send the Cheat Commandos to harass Vladimir Putin seven minutes from now.

There's always the possibility that the laws of physics have changed over the years in such a way as to cause cosmologists to come up with ridiculously large estimates of the age of the universe when it was really created 6000 years ago by God and then messed up by Satan to make it look entirely consistant with the Big Bang and evolution. (Oh wait, I think some people actually believe this one.)

I don't see any reason to believe any of these. And your occult-ish friend is being a dumbass. And so are you if you regard such arguments as having any shred of credibility.

[General Zod]

There's always the possibility that preternatural abilities and the like did provably exist at one point, but (for whatever reason) are no longer available; one of my more occult-ish friend believes that magic was sealed away entire at some point during the fourteenth or fifteenth century.

Then again, that friend also believes that the seal will be broken within the next five to ten years, so that theory should be provable/disprovable if we wait for awhile...

There also remains the possibility of more subtly affecting the environment (as in Wiccan magic), through altering probability, for example.

so far every occult system i've looked into, including wiccan "magic", is more or less bs, and none of them have any real validity beyond sounding mysteeerious. *wiggles fingers* cookie for reference.

your friend is also probably one of the many fluffy wiccans out there, who generally tend to be delusional morons. i'd recommend pointing him towards this page.

[Molyneux]

There's always the possibility that preternatural abilities and the like did provably exist at one point, but (for whatever reason) are no longer available; one of my more occult-ish friend believes that magic was sealed away entire at some point during the fourteenth or fifteenth century.

Then again, that friend also believes that the seal will be broken within the next five to ten years, so that theory should be provable/disprovable if we wait for awhile...

There also remains the possibility of more subtly affecting the environment (as in Wiccan magic), through altering probability, for example.

so far every occult system i've looked into, including wiccan "magic", is more or less bs, and none of them have any real validity beyond sounding mysteeerious. *wiggles fingers* cookie for reference.

your friend is also probably one of the many fluffy wiccans out there, who generally tend to be delusional morons. i'd recommend pointing him towards this page.

Actually, no, he's not Wiccan. He's self-taught.
And like I said -

Then again, that friend also believes that the seal will be broken within the next five to ten years, so that theory should be provable/disprovable if we wait for awhile...

For now, it's not a theory because it's not provable. However, if there is any truth to it, then it will become provable within the next decade (and if it's BS, then lack of positive proof can be taken as disproof).

[VT-16]

He's self-taught

A self-taught bullshitter? I know alot of those...

For now, it's not a theory because it's not provable. However, if there is any truth to it, then it will become provable within the next decade (and if it's BS, then lack of positive proof can be taken as disproof).

Yes, and if there´s any truth to it, the Apocalypse will be dawning on us any minute now, you just have to wait until people start disappearing.

[Stark]

Are people really talking about magic in this thread? Wierd.

All the excuses offered by lamer 'I have t3h power' people are so weak and so all encompassing that even if those powers did exist they would be useless. For instance, I'm pretty sure I'm as skeptical as Randi - doubtless I get +5 to my magic resis - I mean, an anti-psi field. I'm hardly rare.

Nothing measurable under controlled conditions just happens to = absolutely no application, because in a factory or a computer or a weapon, you HAVE a controlled condition and you WANT measurable results. Some people are just so lame, so pathetic, so desperate, that they think they've got powers that only they can see.

They're insane.

[Shinova]

In my personal opinion, people who would have real powers either don't care about proving their powers, or wouldn't want to in order to keep the attention off of themselves and try to live a normal life.


Do they exist? I don't know.

[WyrdNyrd]

In my own, personal, private opinion, there are Lizard People hiding among us, they just don't want us to know they exist. The only reason why there is absolutely no proof at all for this assertion, is that they're all very good at hiding.

Yeay, yeah, Mod -1, redundant/me-too. I'm just trying to get into the spirit of things on this BB...