Sentience

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-11-21 03:00pm

What are the implications of self awareness?

how does one logically solve the basic delimia of being capable of communicating advanced thoughts with others of our spiecies. Or even that we have such thoughts.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-21 03:36pm

THe Yosemite Bear wrote:What are the implications of self awareness?

We can strive for something greater than mere day-to-day instinctive survival.

how does one logically solve the basic delimia of being capable of communicating advanced thoughts with others of our spiecies. Or even that we have such thoughts.

Why is that a dilemma?

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-11-21 06:24pm

How the fuck did nature come up with this confusing package. No fuctional muscle development, massibely extended juvenile span where the offspring must be protected, while pack tactics make sense the devisive nature of sentiance makes little sense to me.

Sure we're still animals, having some very base instincts hard wired into us, but the jump to self awareness causes us to waste lots of time and resources arguing and wondering.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-11-21 06:31pm

THe Yosemite Bear wrote:How the fuck did nature come up with this confusing package. No fuctional muscle development, massibely extended juvenile span where the offspring must be protected, while pack tactics make sense the devisive nature of sentiance makes little sense to me.

Sure we're still animals, having some very base instincts hard wired into us, but the jump to self awareness causes us to waste lots of time and resources arguing and wondering.

Ask yourself: would I prefer to cast aside self-awareness?

No matter how destructive our race gets, I would never give up my sentience at any cost (I think).

EDIT: Our race just evolved far enough to host self-awareness. If nature were a general, it would've started the human race in hopes that by putting all its eggs in one basket (human intelligence, sentience, tech, etc) that basket (us) can someday reach the ultimate goal of every species.

The only question here would be, what is the ultimate goal?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-21 06:36pm

THe Yosemite Bear wrote:How the fuck did nature come up with this confusing package. No fuctional muscle development, massibely extended juvenile span where the offspring must be protected, while pack tactics make sense the devisive nature of sentiance makes little sense to me.

Not at all. Our musculature is just a little different from that of apes; at some point, it was advantageous to walk upright (some theorize that it was sexual selection; walking upright gives you better scouting and better ability to carry food while walking, so males with this trait were popular. As for the extended juvenile span, there are lots of animals with long juvenile spans. We're not unique.

And why sentience, you ask? Well, sentience is just intelligence beyond a certain point; it is not some magical special quality we have. Intelligence is useful for toolmaking, and communication would have been useful because we could co-ordinate group action and hunting much more effectively than an instinctive pack. I don't think it's much of a dilemma.

Sure we're still animals, having some very base instincts hard wired into us, but the jump to self awareness causes us to waste lots of time and resources arguing and wondering.

It's simply intelligence beyond a certain point, and its benefits outweigh its penalties. We waste a lot of time and resources arguing and wondering, but we accomplish far more than any animal.

pecker · Post by **pecker** » 2002-11-21 06:39pm

Everything we attribute to sentience, is exhibited somewhere else in the animal community.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-11-21 06:46pm

Darth Wong wrote: Not at all. Our musculature is just a little different from that of apes; at some point, it was advantageous to walk upright (some theorize that it was sexual selection; walking upright gives you better scouting and better ability to carry food while walking, so males with this trait were popular.

I thought it was because of the environment change from forest to plain fields, which caused walking on two advantageous, as there were no trees to climb and the high position permited to see beyond the vegetation.

But I like the sexual explanation better.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-11-21 07:06pm

pecker wrote:Everything we attribute to sentience, is exhibited somewhere else in the animal community.

So where are all the feline skyscrapers?

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-11-21 07:08pm

What you haven't seen the massive undersee dwellings like coral reefs?

just kidding

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-21 07:10pm

You forgot about the Gungan underwater cities ... or was that just a movie?

pecker · Post by **pecker** » 2002-11-21 07:31pm

Durandal wrote:
pecker wrote:Everything we attribute to sentience, is exhibited somewhere else in the animal community.
So where are all the feline skyscrapers?

To a certain degree I should add, and not all in one creature. Dolphins have a pretty adavanced language (So I'm told), yet have zero tool-using capabilities.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-11-21 07:39pm

Well yeah, the ability to use tools is a bit hard to grasp when you don't have opposable thumbs.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-11-21 07:54pm

Darth Wong wrote:You forgot about the Gungan underwater cities ... or was that just a movie?

Sentience is a double-edged sword. With it, we can understand our role in this universe, and how not to totally fuck it up, but on the other hand, we can now make all sorts of excuses for being horrid creatures.

pecker · Post by **pecker** » 2002-11-21 08:01pm

Darth Wong wrote:You forgot about the Gungan underwater cities ... or was that just a movie?

It was actually a miniature city built by super-intelligent frogs. Camera tricks were used so Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor would look normal sized.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-21 08:42pm

Something that Stephen Hawking comes to mind from this discussion.

"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special."

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-11-21 08:47pm

We can understand the universe? I think not. For one, some of natures more basicaly and fundemental processes (quantum physics) are a complete mystery.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2002-11-21 08:50pm

Darth Wong wrote:
THe Yosemite Bear wrote:How the fuck did nature come up with this confusing package. No fuctional muscle development, massibely extended juvenile span where the offspring must be protected, while pack tactics make sense the devisive nature of sentiance makes little sense to me.
Not at all. Our musculature is just a little different from that of apes; at some point, it was advantageous to walk upright (some theorize that it was sexual selection; walking upright gives you better scouting and better ability to carry food while walking, so males with this trait were popular. As for the extended juvenile span, there are lots of animals with long juvenile spans. We're not unique.

And why sentience, you ask? Well, sentience is just intelligence beyond a certain point; it is not some magical special quality we have. Intelligence is useful for toolmaking, and communication would have been useful because we could co-ordinate group action and hunting much more effectively than an instinctive pack. I don't think it's much of a dilemma.
Sure we're still animals, having some very base instincts hard wired into us, but the jump to self awareness causes us to waste lots of time and resources arguing and wondering.
It's simply intelligence beyond a certain point, and its benefits outweigh its penalties. We waste a lot of time and resources arguing and wondering, but we accomplish far more than any animal.

What dilemma? We rule this planet absolutely and can chose to destroy it at will. We've gotten further with "survival of the fittest" then any other species.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-11-21 09:14pm

Actually, there is a difference between us and chimpanzees. The chimps are not capable of abstract reasoning. We are. This is why we have technology, and they are limited to a few simple tools.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-21 09:31pm

Durandal wrote:Well yeah, the ability to use tools is a bit hard to grasp when you don't have opposable thumbs.

I suspect my dog Fuzzy is quite unhappy about that.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-11-21 10:24pm

kojikun wrote:We can understand the universe? I think not. For one, some of natures more basicaly and fundemental processes (quantum physics) are a complete mystery.

We can understand the universe != We understand the universe

We may not yet have all the necessary knowledge, but we are far closer to it than any other species on the planet, and have far greater potential.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-11-21 10:50pm

One of my favourite quotes. I believe its in regards to human conciousness vs cockroach consciousness.

"They, eat, drink, reproduce, just like us. They just don't kid themselves into thinking their is a greater purpose to it all."

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-11-21 11:03pm

I saw that most of the features we have point towards an aquatic type of monkey: the excessive amounts of body fat in our hairless bodies, our ability to hold our breath (most if not all of the fully terrestrial mammals can't control their breath, it's an involuntary reflex) and I think there was something about standing upright too.

At first this theory was ridiculized by the scientific world, but that was because there was an established opposition.

Drewcifer · Post by **Drewcifer** » 2002-11-21 11:38pm

Durandal wrote:Well yeah, the ability to use tools is a bit hard to grasp when you don't have opposable thumbs.

lol

Seriously though, IIRC, there are some species of birds that use small sticks to retrieve bugs from holes and ants from hills.

I also had cat once that would open doors using the doorknob. I was never sure if it was just a chance association that stuck, ala Pavlov, or he actually figured it out. I know it sounds ridiculous that he would figure out a door knob, but he also used to play this game where he would come running in the room and jump up and flip the lightswitch off if he wanted attention. (He'd also do the same thing in the middle of the night...drove me crazy) Probably simple Pavlov again, but he was a pretty smart cat.

Edit: However, the only skyscrapers he ever built were in his litter box

pecker · Post by **pecker** » 2002-11-22 12:04am

Drewcifer wrote:
Durandal wrote:Well yeah, the ability to use tools is a bit hard to grasp when you don't have opposable thumbs.
lol

Seriously though, IIRC, there are some species of birds that use small sticks to retrieve bugs from holes and ants from hills.

I also had cat once that would open doors using the doorknob. I was never sure if it was just a chance association that stuck, ala Pavlov, or he actually figured it out. I know it sounds ridiculous that he would figure out a door knob, but he also used to play this game where he would come running in the room and jump up and flip the lightswitch off if he wanted attention. (He'd also do the same thing in the middle of the night...drove me crazy) Probably simple Pavlov again, but he was a pretty smart cat.

Edit: However, the only skyscrapers he ever built were in his litter box

I had a cat that hung from the dorrknob when trying to go outside. Considering she couldn't actually open the door, It wasn't a 'taught' occurence, as it never worked. Rather, it was learned (IMO) by observing us.

They also learned how to pull open a screen door damn quick

Post by **Edi** » 2002-11-22 03:34am

We can hardly destroy the planet at will. Fuck up the environment, yes, kill off a lot of species, yes, kill off huge numbers of humans yes, but destroy the planet? You've been reading too many propaganda pieces, Illuminatus...

Datalink, chimps are capable of abstract reasoning. They can learn concepts that are abstract and draw conclusions based on them. Orangutangs are even smarter than chimps. Besides, even a few simple tools are technology, they're exactly what our ancestors started out with and improved during the course of time. And dolphins and killer whales have demonstrated logical reasoning capabilities, both abstract and practical, both in and out of experimental circumstances.

Some birds can learn our concepts of the physical world they can observe, along with our language, and communicate fully in that language, even if their thoughts will never be as complex as those of humans. I don't know how far the birds will grasp abstract concepts, probably not as far as chimps, but to some extent.

We're not quite that unique, we just have the most developed reasoning capacity (abstract or not) at the moment. Not that we can't be surpassed in some respects by other animals, though, just try the test with a sequence of six different colored lights that blink on and off one at a time, in random order, continuously and then stop. Humans can remember an average of six or seven lights correctly after the sequence is done, at best between 12 and 20, while dolphins average above 30.

Edi

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