7 month old foetus aborted over cleft palate....

[kheegster]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/here ... 354469.stm

No charges in late abortion case
Joanna Jepson

Two doctors involved in a late abortion on a foetus with a cleft lip and palate will not face criminal charges.

The Crown Prosecution Service decision follows a police inquiry into the case, which involved a Herefordshire woman.

The investigation was reopened after a judicial review instigated by the Rev Joanna Jepson, who grew up with a jaw deformity and has a disabled brother.

Her lawyers had argued a cleft lip and palate did not meet the 1967 Abortion Act standard of a "serious handicap".

But on Wednesday, West Mercia CPS said it was satisfied the doctors involved had acted in good faith.

The abortion was carried out on a woman in December 2001, after the legal 24-week limit.

Ms Jepson, 28, the curate of St Michael's Church in Chester, argued the abortion was a case of unlawful killing.

A spokesperson for pro-choice group Abortion Rights told BBC News: "We very much welcome the decision.

"We found the form of the case had been an abortion on the grounds of severe disability - that's completely legal in this country.

"Cleft palate can sometimes lead to severe disability. We believe those were the grounds on which the doctors agreed to perform the operation.

"We saw the case as a hook for the anti-abortion lobby to get doctors prosecuted for doing their job."

'Eugenic mentality'

Julia Millington from the ProLife Alliance said she was disappointed with the decision not to prosecute.

"We are alarmed by the reasons given by the CPS but, with the eugenic mentality of medicine in the UK, it is perhaps not surprising that two doctors would determine that the best destiny for a seven-month baby with a cleft palate is to be killed.

The police have expressed concern regarding the impact on the life of the mother - we would like to have seen some concern over the lethal impact this abortion has had on the life of the baby."

Paul Tully, general secretary of the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children, told BBC News: "We suggest the Human Rights Act might be the appropriate vehicle in this case, because this unborn child was clearly discriminated against."

I am frankly quite honestly horrified by this. In many cases, a 7 month foetus is considered a premature baby if born, and efforts are taken to save its life. Yet, here we have a foetus being aborted because it has a cleft palate, which is hardly a life-threatening, if disfiguring, disablement. What next?

[Dark Sider]

Sad isn't it? This will only fuel the fire for the ProLife campaign. Seriously people, aborting a 7 month old child over a cleft-palate? Wouldn't it be easier to have genetic engieering to take care of this problem before fertilization?

[Plekhanov]

I am frankly quite honestly horrified by this. In many cases, a 7 month foetus is considered a premature baby if born, and efforts are taken to save its life. Yet, here we have a foetus being aborted because it has a cleft palate, which is hardly a life-threatening, if disfiguring, disablement. What next?

I've yet to hear anything about the details of this case other that the aborted foetus had a "cleft palate" which pro-lifers claim to not be a serious condition.

Can any of the board members with medical knowledge give us a little info on what is included under teh label "cleft palete".

[Jon]

I advocate abortion only in the early stages, a 7 month old doetus is alive. Murder, I'd say.

[Joe]

It is not a terribly serious condition. It happens when the two bones that form the hard palate at the top of the mouth are not completely joined at birth. Cleft lip tends to accompany...basically, the upper lip and the skin above it aren't joined together. You may have heard of it before, it's commonly called hare lip. Both are easily correctible within the first two years of birth.

Unless this cleft palate was somehow uniquely horrible, I don't see how it can possibly justify murdering a 7 month old fetus.

Edit: And for fuck's sake, the pro-choice movement needs to learn how to choose its battles.

[Plekhanov]

It is not a terribly serious condition. It happens when the two bones that form the hard palate at the top of the mouth are not completely joined at birth. Cleft lip tends to accompany...basically, the upper lip and the skin above it aren't joined together. You may have heard of it before, it's commonly called hare lip. Both are easily correctible within the first two years of birth.

I'm aware of the cleft lip thing and also that the condition can often be corrected nowadays, what I'd like to know is how serious can the condition be at it's upper limit not how it is most commonly encountered.

[LadyTevar]

This is BullShit!

My great-nephew had a cleft palate (undetected until 2wks old). He's already had the surgery to correct it, and he only turned two this past December! It's NOT a disformity!

[LadyTevar]

Deformity. Can't spell when totally pissed off

[Darth Wong]

Extremists who think that abortion should be legal right up to the moment of birth are causing problems for everyone, because their position is ethically untenable. While a more intelligent pro-abortion advocate might try to tie the onset of human rights to the development of intelligence and brain function, these idiots tie it to the completely arbitrary act of moving through the birth canal: a position which is impossible to defend in any rational sense.

[kheegster]

Extremists who think that abortion should be legal right up to the moment of birth are causing problems for everyone, because their position is ethically untenable. While a more intelligent pro-abortion advocate might try to tie the onset of human rights to the development of intelligence and brain function, these idiots tie it to the completely arbitrary act of moving through the birth canal: a position which is impossible to defend in any rational sense.

Considering how many births are done by Caesarian section nowadays, I don't think even passage through the birth canal can be used as a definition of birth. For these guys, the questions boils down to: do you want it?

What really bothers me is that the foetus at 7 mths would probably be capable of surviving on its own outside the womb. I might be broadly pro-life, but I don't see how anyone can justify this as anything but murder.

[Master of Cards]

Extremists who think that abortion should be legal right up to the moment of birth are causing problems for everyone, because their position is ethically untenable. While a more intelligent pro-abortion advocate might try to tie the onset of human rights to the development of intelligence and brain function, these idiots tie it to the completely arbitrary act of moving through the birth canal: a position which is impossible to defend in any rational sense.

Considering how many births are done by Caesarian section nowadays, I don't think even passage through the birth canal can be used as a definition of birth. For these guys, the questions boils down to: do you want it?

What really bothers me is that the foetus at 7 mths would probably be capable of surviving on its own outside the womb. I might be broadly pro-life, but I don't see how anyone can justify this as anything but murder.

It's hard a friend's sis was born transpercent skin a hsot of problems and other stuff

[Dark Sider]

^But can you draw a comparison with aborting a 7 month old baby because of a cleft-palate? Certainly their child with transparent skin has problems, but I still would have a hard time to say "abort it" when it is 7 months old. Although, I do not know if they could detect this to begin with until it is born.

[Sea Skimmer]

I am frankly quite honestly horrified by this. In many cases, a 7 month foetus is considered a premature baby if born, and efforts are taken to save its life. Yet, here we have a foetus being aborted because it has a cleft palate, which is hardly a life-threatening, if disfiguring, disablement. What next?

It's generally not even disfiguring in the long run. It can take a couple operations, but generally the gap can be repaired and closed. One of my cousins was born with a cleft palate and today you simply cannot tell that was ever the case.

[Queeb Salaron]

I really want to try and sympathize with the pro-choice lobby, but I just can't bring myself to do it in this case. I'm sorry, but are we going to start aborting pregnancies because children have a certain color hair, or a certain bone structure? Life is not to be toyed with like that, I'm sorry. Selective breeding should not be a characteristic of a sympathetic human couple.

[tharkûn]

Barbarians.

The worst I've heard coming out of cleft palate is missing teeth and ear problems.

Wouldn't it be easier to have genetic engieering to take care of this problem before fertilization?

It may not be entirely genetic, it has also been linked to martenal smoking and drinking. In all likelihood it is one of those multifaceted things that has numerous components and no necessary triggers.

At worst you fit the kid with false teeth and have to give him more antibiotics in a severe case.

[Falkenhayn]

*Vomits*

My child is going to cost me money and will never be the beautiful little stepford child I want. I'd better kill it.

I think DW hit the nail on the head.

*Vomits again*

[Sharpshooter]

Did they have any indication of just how bad the condition was going to be? Granted, if this somehow was going to develop into something extremily nasty and was something that could not be corrected through surgery, then maybe, on the absolute fringe, I might condone it.

If this was anything less than the worst of the worst-case scenarios, though, the I wholly condemn the decision. To destroy a life for sheer cosmetic purposes is the asolute low of lows, and I honestly wouldn't be all that opposed to a bit of vigilnte justice (limiting it, of couse, to the late-night defacing of their clinics with special care not to injure anybody.)

[Edi]

I'm not a medical expert, but I've encountered the cleft palate question in a debate about abortion, and in that case a guy who is a medical doctor weighed in and straightened us out. The cleft palate condition can have varying degrees of severity. In its mildest forms, it can go undetectable, but in the worst cases it can be so bad as to be almost unsurvivable. So until there is more information on the severity of the condition in this case, I'm reserving judgment.

Edi

[Broomstick]

Yes, in its worst forms cleft palate can be horrific, causing both eating and breathing problems, and creating a sort of canyon across the face. However, that's extremely rare.

It is MUCH more likely that this is the "normal" cleft palate, which may range from so minor it's not discovered until some time after the baby is born, to an upper lip slit all the way up into the nose with missing teeth and malformed upper jaw. However, modern medicine can fix that with excellent results. How excellent? There are a number of Hollywood actors who were born with cleft lip and are nonetheless working in one of the most body-concious, aethestically judgemental places on Earth. That's how excellent. The more severe cases might require a few surgeries, including some work on the jaw and possibly a bridge for the missing teeth but the results are quite cosmetically acceptable.

Barring sudden revelation that this baby suffered from the most extreme form of the disorder, I just can't condone this abortion.

At seven months, you're talking about a baby, not a fetus. One of my sisters was born at 7 months - yes, she had transparent skin, too, it doesn't stay that way, it's a developmental phase we all go through but don't normally see because most of us aren't born until 2 months later.

Anyhow - cleft palate doesn't have a clear genetic cause. Nor is it as simple as the mother's eating/drinking/smoking habits - people had cleft lips long before tobacco was discovered, and in cultures without alcohol. It's one of those things that may or may not have a genetic component, may or may not be influenced by the environment, and probably has some element of random chance at work. So "genetic engineering" is out of the question for now, as we don't really know what causes the problem.

[Edi]

Thanks for the clarification, Broomstick. This one was probably an unacceptable abortion then.

Edi

[mr friendly guy]

How the fuck did two doctors come to the conclusion to abort a baby with a deformity which is relatively easy to treat? The article didn't give the doctor's reasoning in considering cleft palate as a "serious handicap".

[Admiral Valdemar]

Until more information is given on the deformity, I'm not going to pass judgement. Although I can only condone abortions up to the second trimester, if this case was particularly bad deformity wise, then it may have been for the best. Surgey can go only so far today and while genetic manipulation may help, as said by someone else, this could've been an environmental factor.

Still, it is bad PR without further elaboration in the form of some good justifications from the doctors and couple involved.

[tharkûn]

Yes, in its worst forms cleft palate can be horrific, causing both eating and breathing problems, and creating a sort of canyon across the face. However, that's extremely rare.

Do you have a case example handy? I could be wrong by the bone structure of the face should limit deformity to the nose - upper lip region. Certainly if some other features in the skull fail simultaneously you can have problems, but the front cranium (can't remember the name before fusing) and mandible should be independent of the palette so far as I can recall.

cleft palate doesn't have a clear genetic cause. Nor is it as simple as the mother's eating/drinking/smoking habits - people had cleft lips long before tobacco was discovered, and in cultures without alcohol. It's one of those things that may or may not have a genetic component, may or may not be influenced by the environment, and probably has some element of random chance at work.

There have been studies showing that mothers who smoke or drink excessively during pregnancy are more likely to have babies with cleft palettes. Why this is, is not well known. Most likely it has a multitude of triggers so that it can occur without these factors, but is strongly influenced by them. GE might help, by removing some triggers, but it certainly won't be a complete prevention.

[Stravo]

An interesting question is for a late term abortion, say 6-7 months, when would you find it a better alternative to abort than have a child? For instance what if you discover late in the game that the child will have Downs Syndrome? Extreme Mental Retardation? Nasty Birth defects? Where do we draw the line and say and this point you MUST have this child otherwise it is immoral?

Obviously a cleft palate is ridiculous for a reason but I wonder what would happen when the result is a lot murkier. Where quality of life for parent and child will just be horrible.

I've held a seven month premie baby in my arms. They are basically fully developed, tiny and frail but definately a full on baby so that can really snap you back to reality when you discuss abortions this late in the game. It most likley should be termed euthansia at that point.

[Thinkmarble]

For instance what if you discover late in the game that the child will have Downs Syndrome? Extreme Mental Retardation? Nasty Birth defects? Where do we draw the line and say and this point you MUST have this child otherwise it is immoral?

So if the life of the mother is not threatened, the fact that her life will be more difficult then anticipated does not make an abortion legitimate.
In turn I´m also in favour of heavy state support for mothers with children with special needs.
That´s my position.
It is rooted in the conviction that any human life is inherently valueable, as well as the conviction that an 6/7 month old fetus counts as a human being.
Talks about how a downs syndrom makes my mouth taste like ash, it reminds me too much of the concept of "unwertes Leben"*.

*
For the people not knowing german history, people with birth defects were labeled "unwertes Leben" during the time of the 3rd Reich and killed.
being brought into an metal asylum could very well be an death sentence in that time.