End of Days, Suicide, and Catholicism

[White Haven]

Alright, for anyone who hasn't seen End of Days, it, well, ends with a satan-possessed Ahnold killing himself to prevent the devil from screwing the world over. And, well, a hot chick, but that's somewhat beside the point. Anyway, the movie is very heavy on the Catholic themes, and I was just thinking...would killing yourself to spite the Devil still screw you in the afterlife, in that mythos/religion/whatever, or would that make you a martyr despite being the one doing the killing? Any thoughts?

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, the context of Ahnuld's thing isn't like your normal suicide, since his body was also inhabited by Satan. So he wasn't really killing himself, he was more like killing Satan, who by that point owned his ass.

[Mobiboros]

Well, if I recall correctly the reasoning behind the suicide thing is that it falls under "Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder".

In this instance he isn't comitting murder, he's sacrificing himself to save the world. Which is more in keeping with the criteria for martyrdom.

[Lagmonster]

I like to think that after End of Days that Arnold's character was brought before an angry God who thunders, "Didn't you read the end of my book? I'm TRYING to end a world here!".

[The Third Man]

I think this could reasonably be said to fall under "dying in combat with God's enemies". If we were talking Islam rather than Catholicism he'd probably qualify for the magic queue-jump VIP virgins pass.

[neoolong]

According to this, if it's accurate, what Arnie did was a sin. He killed himself as a means to stop Satan. That would be direct suicide.

[General Zod]

According to this, if it's accurate, what Arnie did was a sin. He killed himself as a means to stop Satan. That would be direct suicide.

read further into it. it goes onto saying that such suicide could be acceptable provided it was done with god's consent/approval/whatever. so killing himself to stop satan would likely be acceptable, if god wanted to indeed stop satan. or some such similar reasoning.

[Mr. Coffee]

My first attempt to add to a SLAM thread... Please, be gentle with me.

Well, if I recall correctly the reasoning behind the suicide thing is that it falls under "Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder".

Not quite. The reasoning behind why suicide is considered a cardinal sin in the Catholic faith is because it shows a complete lack of hope. According to my understanding of it, when a person commits suicide they are effectively rejecting God and any faith in God's plan for them.

Applying that to the movie, when Arnold killed himself he wasn't doing it as a rejection of faith, but as an affirmation of it. He was willing to end his own life in order to save the lives of countless others. It wasn't a suicide so much as it was taking one for the team.

[General Zod]

Not quite. The reasoning behind why suicide is considered a cardinal sin in the Catholic faith is because it shows a complete lack of hope. According to my understanding of it, when a person commits suicide they are effectively rejecting God and any faith in God's plan for them.

i always thought the standard reasoning as to why suicide was considered a sin is because it basically spits in gods face, saying you don't want his gift of life?

[neoolong]

According to this, if it's accurate, what Arnie did was a sin. He killed himself as a means to stop Satan. That would be direct suicide.

read further into it. it goes onto saying that such suicide could be acceptable provided it was done with god's consent/approval/whatever. so killing himself to stop satan would likely be acceptable, if god wanted to indeed stop satan. or some such similar reasoning.

I don't recall Arnie getting God's consent though. Did it happen in the movie?

[Mr. Coffee]

i always thought the standard reasoning as to why suicide was considered a sin is because it basically spits in gods face, saying you don't want his gift of life?

Basically, yes. Suicide is thought to be a complete lack of hope or faith, an outright rejection of God.

[FireNexus]

It seems to me that Arnold's actions are akin to jumping on a grenade to save your buddies. Would something like that be considered suicide?

[Mr. Coffee]

It seems to me that Arnold's actions are akin to jumping on a grenade to save your buddies. Would something like that be considered suicide?

No, that would be considered self-sacrefice. Killing yourself out of dispair or hopelessness is one thing. That's considered the same as telling God that you have no faith in him or any hope that he'll help you out of the situation that's causing you to kill yourself. Jumping on a grenade to save your buddies is act done out of caring for your comrades, something done for the greater good.

[Skelron]

Although it should be noted in any case, it's thesedays forgiven, (In the past you could not be buried in a Catholic Graveyard if you had commited suicide.) Since the church takes the position that at the last possible instance for a thought to cross your mind but after it is too late to prevent death, you repent of it.

[Mr. Coffee]

When did the Church reverse it's position on administering burial rights to suicides? Could you provide a source for this, please? I've not heard anything about it.

[Skelron]

You know I my be wrong, it was something I was told at Collage by a Permanent Deacon (RC Collage Christian Theology) But I cannot find it backed up by any sources.It might very well be one of those local things. (The Late Cardinal Hume was able to make the UK Catholci Church very Liberal in many areas by toing the Popes line in others. The British Catholic Church had far greater leeway than many others.)

I'll keep looking however, it might also be one of those situations where what is practiced is different from the official stance.

[Mr. Coffee]

I was just wondering. I figured a reversal of that magnitude in Church dotrine would've warranted at least a minor blurg during sunday mass.

[Skelron]

I was just wondering. I figured a reversal of that magnitude in Church dotrine would've warranted at least a minor blurg during sunday mass.

Indeed your right as I said I may be wrong or it may be one of those small things Priests on the whole let slide without any official sanction. (I mean how many Priests could tell the family of Suicide victim 'Sorry no burial here' so they may let it slide without official sanction.) It was something I was told as I said by a permanment Deacon I think although it was many years ago, it's one of those strange facts that got stuck in my head.

(Along with 666 was the number of the Roman Emperor at the time that revelations was written using some obscure system of changing Names into numbers I think Ah distracting the Theology Teachers was there ever a more satisfying hobby during leasons on the Problem of the Synoptic Gospals)

[neoolong]

I actually heard the same thing. Read it in a Constantine review about how suicide isn't a mortal sin anymore.

[Mr. Coffee]

Cool... Gotta make a note to bug the priest about this one.

[Skelron]

Becsause I had to know/get to the bottom of this I erm paid for an answer. (£1 to a company that sends answers to any Texted question) They claim that
'While suicide is still a Mortal sin. The Catholic Church no longer denys a Christian Burial. They still condemn the act.' So there you go the mystery solved.