My question is: How do you accelerate neutrons in this scheme? I read the particle beam article that was mentioned there, and it said that a neutral atom would be accelerated by adding an extra electron to it, and then removing it after the necessary velocity has been achieved, but what about a neutron? This strap-on ( ) electron -method doesn't work, if my brain serves me well. So how is it done?What should sci-fi writers use instead of these slow-moving plasma blobs?
Pretty much anything else, really. Guns, missiles, bombs, lasers, and particle beams (particularly neutral-beams such as neutron cannons, where the electromagnetic repulsion problem won't cause beam spreading and electromagnetic shielding would be ineffective)
A question about neutron cannons
Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
A question about neutron cannons
On his plasma weapons page, mr. Wong wrote:
"Death before dishonour" they say, but how much dishonour are we talking about exactly? I mean, I can handle a lot. I could fellate a smurf if the alternative was death.
- Dylan Moran
- Dylan Moran
Re: A question about neutron cannons
Just to pre-emptively clear any misunderstandings, I meant that it won't work with a neutron, not that it wouldn't work on an atom.Karza wrote:This strap-on ( ) electron -method doesn't work, if my brain serves me well. So how is it done?
"Death before dishonour" they say, but how much dishonour are we talking about exactly? I mean, I can handle a lot. I could fellate a smurf if the alternative was death.
- Dylan Moran
- Dylan Moran
- Il Saggiatore
- Padawan Learner
- Posts: 274
- Joined: 2005-03-31 08:21am
- Location: Innsmouth
- Contact:
Neutrons can be produced through nuclear reactions.
You could accelerate the original nucleus (as part of an ionized atom), and let conservation of momentum do the rest when the neutron "splits".
However, neutrons are most effectively captured by other nuclei (which is what we want, because that's how they can affect material), when they are not to fast (basically, if they are too fast, there is not enough time for the nucleus to capture them).
Unless you want to use neutrons as simple projectiles, but I don't think that would be very effective, since you would need to hit the nucleus, which has a small cross-section compared to the atom.
You would need a high-density beam of neutrons at high speeds.
Personally, I would go for high-energy alpha-particles.
You could accelerate the original nucleus (as part of an ionized atom), and let conservation of momentum do the rest when the neutron "splits".
However, neutrons are most effectively captured by other nuclei (which is what we want, because that's how they can affect material), when they are not to fast (basically, if they are too fast, there is not enough time for the nucleus to capture them).
Unless you want to use neutrons as simple projectiles, but I don't think that would be very effective, since you would need to hit the nucleus, which has a small cross-section compared to the atom.
You would need a high-density beam of neutrons at high speeds.
Personally, I would go for high-energy alpha-particles.
"This is the worst kind of discrimination. The kind against me!" - Bender (Futurama)
"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" - Hobbes (Calvin and Hobbes)
"It's all about context!" - Vince Noir (The Mighty Boosh)
- Darth Wong
- Sith Lord
- Posts: 70028
- Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
- Location: Toronto, Canada
- Contact:
That won't work because the proton will carry its own momentum and the fission will cause deflection.Il Saggiatore wrote:Neutrons can be produced through nuclear reactions.
You could accelerate the original nucleus (as part of an ionized atom), and let conservation of momentum do the rest when the neutron "splits".
Capture is not the goal. Energy transfer is.However, neutrons are most effectively captured by other nuclei (which is what we want, because that's how they can affect material), when they are not to fast (basically, if they are too fast, there is not enough time for the nucleus to capture them).
Actually, the reaction cross-section of neutrons and atoms is fairly high, and neutron radiation has a well-known heating effect. Nuclear fusion bombs release a considerable fraction of their output as neutron radiation.Unless you want to use neutrons as simple projectiles, but I don't think that would be very effective, since you would need to hit the nucleus, which has a small cross-section compared to the atom.
That is true of any particle weapon.You would need a high-density beam of neutrons at high speeds.
Easily deflected by magnetic fields and prone to beam-spreading effects due to mutual electromagnetic repulsion. The problem with neutron cannons is finding a way to actually manipulate the neutrons as stated earlier (I mentioned them only because any sci-fi civilization with artificial gravity should be able to do it).Personally, I would go for high-energy alpha-particles.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
- Il Saggiatore
- Padawan Learner
- Posts: 274
- Joined: 2005-03-31 08:21am
- Location: Innsmouth
- Contact:
Ah yes, we cannot actually control in which direction the neutron is emitted, can we?Darth Wong wrote:That won't work because the proton will carry its own momentum and the fission will cause deflection.Il Saggiatore wrote:Neutrons can be produced through nuclear reactions.
You could accelerate the original nucleus (as part of an ionized atom), and let conservation of momentum do the rest when the neutron "splits".
I had induced radioactivity in mind.Darth Wong wrote:Capture is not the goal. Energy transfer is.Il Saggiatore wrote:However, neutrons are most effectively captured by other nuclei (which is what we want, because that's how they can affect material), when they are not to fast (basically, if they are too fast, there is not enough time for the nucleus to capture them).
Yes, not very effecitve as a weapon over short terms.
I thought using neutrons as projectiles requires the neutrons to hit the nucleus.Darth Wong wrote:Actually, the reaction cross-section of neutrons and atoms is fairly high, and neutron radiation has a well-known heating effect. Nuclear fusion bombs release a considerable fraction of their output as neutron radiation.Il Saggiatore wrote:Unless you want to use neutrons as simple projectiles, but I don't think that would be very effective, since you would need to hit the nucleus, which has a small cross-section compared to the atom.
*smacks forehead* The OP was about ship-to-ship weapons, wasn't it?Darth Wong wrote:That is true of any particle weapon.Il Saggiatore wrote:You would need a high-density beam of neutrons at high speeds.
Easily deflected by magnetic fields and prone to beam-spreading effects due to mutual electromagnetic repulsion. The problem with neutron cannons is finding a way to actually manipulate the neutrons as stated earlier (I mentioned them only because any sci-fi civilization with artificial gravity should be able to do it).Il Saggiatore wrote:Personally, I would go for high-energy alpha-particles.
I had portable weapons in mind.
"This is the worst kind of discrimination. The kind against me!" - Bender (Futurama)
"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" - Hobbes (Calvin and Hobbes)
"It's all about context!" - Vince Noir (The Mighty Boosh)
That's a bit of a problem for me, since I'm thinking of this because I was going to use neutron cannons as the main capship weapon in my sci-fi universe, but I was also going to avoid artificial gravity like the Plague.Darth Wong wrote:The problem with neutron cannons is finding a way to actually manipulate the neutrons as stated earlier (I mentioned them only because any sci-fi civilization with artificial gravity should be able to do it).
Drat. I'll need come up with something different then.
"Death before dishonour" they say, but how much dishonour are we talking about exactly? I mean, I can handle a lot. I could fellate a smurf if the alternative was death.
- Dylan Moran
- Dylan Moran
The only scifi stuff i can think of to accelerate and focus neutrons is gravity.
But since gravity is the weakest of the fundametal forces this might be a little bit difficult.
But since gravity is the weakest of the fundametal forces this might be a little bit difficult.
My 3D artwork:
http://www.thirdwave.de
http://www.thirdwave.de
And like I said, I try to avoid using that (they're not THAT advanced in Karzaverse)Antares wrote:The only scifi stuff i can think of to accelerate and focus neutrons is gravity.
But since gravity is the weakest of the fundametal forces this might be a little bit difficult.
"Death before dishonour" they say, but how much dishonour are we talking about exactly? I mean, I can handle a lot. I could fellate a smurf if the alternative was death.
- Dylan Moran
- Dylan Moran
- Il Saggiatore
- Padawan Learner
- Posts: 274
- Joined: 2005-03-31 08:21am
- Location: Innsmouth
- Contact:
The neutron has an intrinsic magnetic moment, so it is conceivable to use magnetic fields. How practical that is, I do not know.Antares wrote:The only scifi stuff i can think of to accelerate and focus neutrons is gravity.
But since gravity is the weakest of the fundametal forces this might be a little bit difficult.
"This is the worst kind of discrimination. The kind against me!" - Bender (Futurama)
"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" - Hobbes (Calvin and Hobbes)
"It's all about context!" - Vince Noir (The Mighty Boosh)
Eh? I thought the great thing about them was precisely the fact that they are neutral particles, and thus couldn't be manipulated by electromagnetics.Il Saggiatore wrote:The neutron has an intrinsic magnetic moment, so it is conceivable to use magnetic fields. How practical that is, I do not know.
"Death before dishonour" they say, but how much dishonour are we talking about exactly? I mean, I can handle a lot. I could fellate a smurf if the alternative was death.
- Dylan Moran
- Dylan Moran
Well... you could accelerate protons and as soon as they are fast enough and correclty focused you could trigger an inverse beta-minus decay (electron forcing to merge with proton) and voila you got a neutron.
I dont know how feasible this is, though...
I dont know how feasible this is, though...
My 3D artwork:
http://www.thirdwave.de
http://www.thirdwave.de
- Darth Wong
- Sith Lord
- Posts: 70028
- Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
- Location: Toronto, Canada
- Contact:
It's not feasible at all, but few sci-fi technologies are. At least it makes mathematical sense, so it's still nevertheless quite a clever idea.Antares wrote:Well... you could accelerate protons and as soon as they are fast enough and correclty focused you could trigger an inverse beta-minus decay (electron forcing to merge with proton) and voila you got a neutron.
I dont know how feasible this is, though...
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
- Il Saggiatore
- Padawan Learner
- Posts: 274
- Joined: 2005-03-31 08:21am
- Location: Innsmouth
- Contact:
Neutrons are electrically neutral.Karza wrote:Eh? I thought the great thing about them was precisely the fact that they are neutral particles, and thus couldn't be manipulated by electromagnetics.Il Saggiatore wrote:The neutron has an intrinsic magnetic moment, so it is conceivable to use magnetic fields. How practical that is, I do not know.
Charged particles can be controlled with electric fields (basically, voltages on conductors of the right geometry) and magnetic fields (Lorentz force).
You can use relatively weak magnetic fields to deflect a charged particle that is moving (which is what happens with the Earth's magnetic field, deflecting charged particles from the solar wind), because the magnetic field does not change the kinetic energy of the particle, only the momentum (direction).
If the particle is electrically neutral, there is no Lorentz force.
"This is the worst kind of discrimination. The kind against me!" - Bender (Futurama)
"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" - Hobbes (Calvin and Hobbes)
"It's all about context!" - Vince Noir (The Mighty Boosh)
There's a slightly unequal distribution of charge in the neutron's subatomic structure (one up with charge +2/3e and two downs each with charge -1/3e, adding up to a net charge of 0). However, it still forms a (very tiny) dipole moment that you could manipulate, given you had a strong enough magnetic field.Karza wrote:Eh? I thought the great thing about them was precisely the fact that they are neutral particles, and thus couldn't be manipulated by electromagnetics.Il Saggiatore wrote:The neutron has an intrinsic magnetic moment, so it is conceivable to use magnetic fields. How practical that is, I do not know.
- Il Saggiatore
- Padawan Learner
- Posts: 274
- Joined: 2005-03-31 08:21am
- Location: Innsmouth
- Contact:
I had the spin of the neutron in mind, which gives it nearly the same (intrinsic) magnetic moment as the proton (if memory serves).Matt Huang wrote:There's a slightly unequal distribution of charge in the neutron's subatomic structure (one up with charge +2/3e and two downs each with charge -1/3e, adding up to a net charge of 0). However, it still forms a (very tiny) dipole moment that you could manipulate, given you had a strong enough magnetic field.Karza wrote:Eh? I thought the great thing about them was precisely the fact that they are neutral particles, and thus couldn't be manipulated by electromagnetics.Il Saggiatore wrote:The neutron has an intrinsic magnetic moment, so it is conceivable to use magnetic fields. How practical that is, I do not know.
Of course, the proton is easier to handle because of the electric charge.
And, strictly speaking, the neutron has a very small electric quadrupole moment, because of the non-uniform distribution of charge inside.
"This is the worst kind of discrimination. The kind against me!" - Bender (Futurama)
"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" - Hobbes (Calvin and Hobbes)
"It's all about context!" - Vince Noir (The Mighty Boosh)
- Prozac the Robert
- Jedi Master
- Posts: 1327
- Joined: 2004-05-05 09:01am
- Location: UK
I wonder if the countermeasure would be to magically induce decay in the incoming beam, and then deflect it wioth magnets. I supose the magic could be restricted to the inside of the gun type device to stop that though.Antares wrote:Well... you could accelerate protons and as soon as they are fast enough and correclty focused you could trigger an inverse beta-minus decay (electron forcing to merge with proton) and voila you got a neutron.
I dont know how feasible this is, though...
Hi! I'm Prozac the Robert!
EBC: "We can categorically state that we will be releasing giant man-eating badgers into the area."
EBC: "We can categorically state that we will be releasing giant man-eating badgers into the area."
Wierd thing is, my sci-fi universe uses neutron weapons as well. But, since I was also worried about the feasability of such weapons, I just call them "NP guns" and be done with it, "NP" meaning Neutral Particle, of course.
So, just come up with a "tag name", or use railguns. A hypervelocity tungsten slug can't fail you.
And, there's always "creative licence". A neutron gun is far more practical than magic beams that vaporize people without vapor...
- Ra
So, just come up with a "tag name", or use railguns. A hypervelocity tungsten slug can't fail you.
And, there's always "creative licence". A neutron gun is far more practical than magic beams that vaporize people without vapor...
- Ra
Another thing about high neutron fluxes is that the tend to reduce the strength of whatever material is subjected to them, thereby making it easier for subsequent shots to breach the armor.
"preemptive killing of cops might not be such a bad idea from a personal saftey[sic] standpoint..." --Keevan Colton
"There's a word for bias you can't see: Yours." -- William Saletan
"There's a word for bias you can't see: Yours." -- William Saletan
- Slartibartfast
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 6730
- Joined: 2002-09-10 05:35pm
- Location: Where The Sea Meets The Sky
- Contact:
- Darth Wong
- Sith Lord
- Posts: 70028
- Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
- Location: Toronto, Canada
- Contact:
By the way, one tried and true real-life method of making a neutral-beam is to fire a beam of hydrogen atoms. Simply accelerate protons and then combine them with electrons before release. Bingo, a collimated stream of neutral particles with no magic-tech. These things have actually been built, although they're used for fusion plasmoid heating rather than weapons.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
- Dark Hellion
- Permanent n00b
- Posts: 3554
- Joined: 2002-08-25 07:56pm
Or you could pull a gundam and make up your own new neutral particle with some kind of wierdo-side effect that makes it easy to control. As I often tell the writers, it's your story, do whatever the hell you want. If you can write well enough you can have tutu-wearing elephants in assault armour firing tactical nukes and people will enjoy it.
A teenage girl is just a teenage boy who can get laid.
-GTO
We're not just doing this for money; we're doing this for a shitload of money!
-GTO
We're not just doing this for money; we're doing this for a shitload of money!
Uhm ... didnt i just mention this 5 postings above?Darth Wong wrote:By the way, one tried and true real-life method of making a neutral-beam is to fire a beam of hydrogen atoms. Simply accelerate protons and then combine them with electrons before release. Bingo, a collimated stream of neutral particles with no magic-tech. These things have actually been built, although they're used for fusion plasmoid heating rather than weapons.
Cool, that this is more real than i thought.
My 3D artwork:
http://www.thirdwave.de
http://www.thirdwave.de
Didn't I mention in the OP that I already knew of these ? Anyway, I decided to go with a mix of hydrogen beams and proton beams. With additional railguns and various guided missiles and xasers and... (ad nauseum).Antares wrote:Uhm ... didnt i just mention this 5 postings above?
Cool, that this is more real than i thought.
No such thing as too much diversity .
"Death before dishonour" they say, but how much dishonour are we talking about exactly? I mean, I can handle a lot. I could fellate a smurf if the alternative was death.
- Dylan Moran
- Dylan Moran
- Darth Wong
- Sith Lord
- Posts: 70028
- Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
- Location: Toronto, Canada
- Contact:
Your idea involved fusing the protons and electrons into neutrons, which is vastly more difficult and technically implausible than simply letting them form hydrogen atoms.Antares wrote:Uhm ... didnt i just mention this 5 postings above?Darth Wong wrote:By the way, one tried and true real-life method of making a neutral-beam is to fire a beam of hydrogen atoms. Simply accelerate protons and then combine them with electrons before release. Bingo, a collimated stream of neutral particles with no magic-tech. These things have actually been built, although they're used for fusion plasmoid heating rather than weapons.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html