U.S. gestapo seizes students computers...

[Nova Andromeda]

--Check this shit out:
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm ... ID=1803061

[Mr Bean]

Umm, Thats US NAVY CADETS, IE its legel for them to order you to strap TNT to your chest and give Saddam a hug, this is nothing new at all, Those Computers are US Navy Property until you graduate.


Might as well post a link about the "Horrors of the US Army!" "People ordered to carry guns and kill people!" how can we stand such insanity!

[Nova Andromeda]

Umm, Thats US NAVY CADETS, IE its legel for them to order you to strap TNT to your chest and give Saddam a hug, this is nothing new at all, Those Computers are US Navy Property until you graduate.

--There you go again with that silly idea that because the gov. can do something it must be alright...
-You entire arguement rests on the idea that military personel should have no rights at all regardless of whether something affects their job performance or not (i.e., their ability to kill people/destroy stuff in our defense).

[Colonel Olrik]

Umm, Thats US NAVY CADETS, IE its legel for them to order you to strap TNT to your chest and give Saddam a hug, this is nothing new at all, Those Computers are US Navy Property until you graduate.

The article said the students paid for the computers during the four years. That would make them theirs, I think. And it's still invasion of private property..

[Stormbringer]

Umm, Thats US NAVY CADETS, IE its legel for them to order you to strap TNT to your chest and give Saddam a hug, this is nothing new at all, Those Computers are US Navy Property until you graduate.

The article said the students paid for the computers during the four years. That would make them theirs, I think. And it's still invasion of private property..

They'd technically be renting them. But either way, the school has the right to seize and check those computers. However little we think of doing it, stuff like Kazaa and Morpheus are still stealing.

[Nova Andromeda]

They'd technically be renting them. But either way, the school has the right to seize and check those computers. However little we think of doing it, stuff like Kazaa and Morpheus are still stealing.

--The school may have a legal right to seize them, but that is only because the law is screwed up! At what point has it become justified to search and seize people's property (and yes I would consider those computer the students property) without a shred of evidence they have done anything wrong. It is like arresting everyone because we know that at least one of them is a theif. This scheme is just a form of entrapment which is recognized to be unjust. As for the stealing arguement, I would argue that the record lables are extorting the muscians and us, but I don't see anyone stopping them. This just levels the playing field. In fact, we don't actually know what music files we download are copy write protected. That is the music lable's problem not ours. They don't have the right to stop us from exchanging files because they have failed to properly show which files are copy written and which ones are not. You can also bet I'm not going to help them do that while they are screwing the rest of us.

[Stormbringer]

It's in no way entrapment. They abused the right to those computer and were caught. They were not enticed to download that stuff and they did that on their own. And the school has the right to see that it's property and resources are not used illegally.

And downloading music is illegal. Whether or not the record companies deserve it or not it's doesn't change the illegailty of it. Besides, most aren't doing it to stick it to the record companies, they just want the free music.

[Mr Bean]

There you go again with that silly idea that because the gov. can do something it must be alright...
-You entire arguement rests on the idea that military personel should have no rights at all regardless of whether something affects their job performance or not (i.e., their ability to kill people/destroy stuff in our defense).

Guess what? Military Personal DON'T have any rights, if your getting a secuirty clearance your right to Privasy just evaporated, I have a Security Clearance, got in 2001, Before I got it the FBI visted everyone I knew and thier third cousin to make sure I was not a secret Russia spy or whatnot(Or a pschyopathic killer)

I get RECHECKED ever 6 Months meaning the FBI checks my Financal records and vists close friends every 6 months with a Deep Probe(Just like the first one) every five years

Frankly Nova I'm not sure you Understand how Military Works.. IE Freedom of Puplic expression is understanbly curbed when racing up a beachhead under fire....

Also you seem to ignore these things called Rules and Regulations, You are not allowed to Modify US Navy or any other branch's Machines without signed permision from your local CO, I know what these Cadets's rules were or at least I knew what they where as of four months ago last time I checked the List, You are NOT ALLOWED TO DOWNLOAD ANYTING ONTO OR MODIFY US Armed Services Computers

That is a fucking Rule, Be it .mp3s or Quake 3 your not fucking allowed to mess with the computers, Nova its just that simple

See we have things in the US called Laws, You obey them or you are punished.. The Armed Services are much stricter of acutal enforcing said Laws that the avarage Goverment insutition(Like say... the Post Office)

[Mr Bean]

To Reiterate, They are Cadets using US Armed Services(Until such time as they own it after graudation) Standerd Policy is not to download or modify said US Goverment Propety Computers without WRITTEN Permision from thier CO

The fact it was .mp3 files instead of say... ICQ makes no diffrence

[Nova Andromeda]

It's in no way entrapment. They abused the right to those computer and were caught. They were not enticed to download that stuff and they did that on their own. And the school has the right to see that it's property and resources are not used illegally.

--It is entrapment to give cadets computers without telling them they are government property and will be searched for anything that is technically illegal, but which is done in common practice and not commonly enforced! An unenforced law is nothing better than a tool to selectively screw people.

And downloading music is illegal. Whether or not the record companies deserve it or not it's doesn't change the illegailty of it. Besides, most aren't doing it to stick it to the record companies, they just want the free music.

--We are right back to the "its the law therefore it must be alright" arguement. If corporations, the majority, and special interest didn't fill U.S. laws with tons of useless/unfair shit I would tolerate following laws I didn't agree with, but that is currently a pipe dream. That being the case I'm not going to assume something is copy written. I will leave it to the recording industry to make it is easy for me to discriminate between copy written stuff and non-copy written stuff. If and when they do I'll then determine if things are fair or I'm still being screwed.

[Nova Andromeda]

See we have things in the US called Laws, You obey them or you are punished..

--Germany had laws when Hitler was in power too. Using your logic those laws were fine too. I don't know what your security clearance level is, but it is still unfair to use information gathered to determine if someone is a spy for reasons other that catching spies, PERIOD!

That is a fucking Rule, Be it .mp3s or Quake 3 your not fucking allowed to mess with the computers, Nova its just that simple ...
To Reiterate, They are Cadets using US Armed Services(Until such time as they own it after graudation) Standerd Policy is not to download or modify said US Goverment Propety Computers without WRITTEN Permision from thier CO

The fact it was .mp3 files instead of say... ICQ makes no diffrence

--Yes, but they trick these cadets into treating those computers like they are theirs (since they are paying for them) and not gov. property (this type of line blurring is unfair). It is unfair to prosecute these people for having copy write material on them since modifying those computers is permitted under normal circumstances. I doubt you are right about these computers being treated like other gov. hardware, since it's not like they do random searches for other programs/data.

[HemlockGrey]

Um, Nova, if the cadets are told 'Don't DL anything on these computers' and the Navy then goes through and checks the computers and found that the cadets have downloaded stuff, the cadets have no one to blame but themselves.

If, however, the cadets are not told...

[Rhadamanthus]

--It is entrapment to give cadets computers without telling them they are government property and will be searched for anything that is technically illegal, but which is done in common practice and not commonly enforced! An unenforced law is nothing better than a tool to selectively screw people.

God help the United States Navy if their future officers weren't aware that the computers they were issued at a military training installation and that they were told they would not own until after graduation...didn't know those computers were government property You can get court martialled in the military for talking bad about the government, you are allowed to do so as a civilian....I guess we're being selectively screwed, I mean, why should you expect the military to exhibit higher standards of behavior than the public at large? It's not like they have an important job or anything.

--We are right back to the "its the law therefore it must be alright" arguement. If corporations, the majority, and special interest didn't fill U.S. laws with tons of useless/unfair shit I would tolerate following laws I didn't agree with, but that is currently a pipe dream. That being the case I'm not going to assume something is copy written. I will leave it to the recording industry to make it is easy for me to discriminate between copy written stuff and non-copy written stuff. If and when they do I'll then determine if things are fair or I'm still being screwed.

To make it easy for you then, anything you download from Kazaa or Morpheus or any other program that actually has someones name attached to it, like Britney Spears, or Murder Inc., it's probably copy righted and therefore not free for you to take as you please. Basically your complaint is "We should be allowed to steal as we like! Just because the law says stealing is wrong doesn't mean it is!"

And I really don't understand why you are getting worked up about this, as you said, for the general populace its an unenforced law, so unless you are one of those Navy Cadets, why are you bitching?

[CorSec]

It's in no way entrapment. They abused the right to those computer and were caught. They were not enticed to download that stuff and they did that on their own. And the school has the right to see that it's property and resources are not used illegally.

--It is entrapment to give cadets computers without telling them they are government property and will be searched for anything that is technically illegal, but which is done in common practice and not commonly enforced! An unenforced law is nothing better than a tool to selectively screw people.

It is not entrapment in any way, shape or form. In order for this to be genuine entrapment, the USNA would have also needed to enticed the cadets to search for illicit programs to download.

The bottom line is that when anyone is on a US military installation, their property and person is subject to search at any time by authorities. Period. It is spelled out completely at every entrance I have ever seen to a US military installation.

And downloading music is illegal. Whether or not the record companies deserve it or not it's doesn't change the illegailty of it. Besides, most aren't doing it to stick it to the record companies, they just want the free music.

--We are right back to the "its the law therefore it must be alright" arguement. If corporations, the majority, and special interest didn't fill U.S. laws with tons of useless/unfair shit I would tolerate following laws I didn't agree with, but that is currently a pipe dream. That being the case I'm not going to assume something is copy written. I will leave it to the recording industry to make it is easy for me to discriminate between copy written stuff and non-copy written stuff. If and when they do I'll then determine if things are fair or I'm still being screwed.

How could you be so dense? All music is copywritten. Especially every note that is produced by the big recording labels.

It is the law, and it is right. Just because you disagree with it, doesn't make it legal for you to ignore the law.

[CorSec]

See we have things in the US called Laws, You obey them or you are punished..

--Germany had laws when Hitler was in power too. Using your logic those laws were fine too.

Whatever. To equate copywright and intellectual property laws with Hitler's Final Solution is asinine.

That is a fucking Rule, Be it .mp3s or Quake 3 your not fucking allowed to mess with the computers, Nova its just that simple ...
To Reiterate, They are Cadets using US Armed Services(Until such time as they own it after graudation) Standerd Policy is not to download or modify said US Goverment Propety Computers without WRITTEN Permision from thier CO

The fact it was .mp3 files instead of say... ICQ makes no diffrence

--Yes, but they trick these cadets into treating those computers like they are theirs (since they are paying for them) and not gov. property (this type of line blurring is unfair). It is unfair to prosecute these people for having copy write material on them since modifying those computers is permitted under normal circumstances. I doubt you are right about these computers being treated like other gov. hardware, since it's not like they do random searches for other programs/data.

They trick them? Right. It isn't unfair to prosecute people for having illegally obtained copywritten material, seeing as that's... oh, what's the word? Oh yeah, 'illegal.'

[CorSec]

See we have things in the US called Laws, You obey them or you are punished..

--Germany had laws when Hitler was in power too. Using your logic those laws were fine too.

Whatever. To equate copywright and intellectual property laws with Hitler's Final Solution is asinine.

That is a fucking Rule, Be it .mp3s or Quake 3 your not fucking allowed to mess with the computers, Nova its just that simple ...
To Reiterate, They are Cadets using US Armed Services(Until such time as they own it after graudation) Standerd Policy is not to download or modify said US Goverment Propety Computers without WRITTEN Permision from thier CO

The fact it was .mp3 files instead of say... ICQ makes no diffrence

--Yes, but they trick these cadets into treating those computers like they are theirs (since they are paying for them) and not gov. property (this type of line blurring is unfair). It is unfair to prosecute these people for having copy write material on them since modifying those computers is permitted under normal circumstances. I doubt you are right about these computers being treated like other gov. hardware, since it's not like they do random searches for other programs/data.

They trick them? Right. It isn't unfair to prosecute people for having illegally obtained copywritten material, seeing as that's... oh, what's the word? Oh yeah, 'illegal.'

[Coyote]

When a person joins the US military (or any military) they have their rights curtailed to a certain degree. That's the way it is. The military operates under a different set of rules and expectations so it is not comperable to a civilian job. The military can order you out of bed in the middle of the night and send you to go kill people you don't know, something that GM or McDonald's probably will not ask of you.

Your locker, your room, your car, your physical person can be searched at any time. It doesn't happen often but it can happen. That's why the MPs don't need a search warrant to enter your barracks room if they have reason to suspect drugs or other illegalities. A person who joins the military is aware of this and gets other priviledges (health & dental benefits for free, for example) that are not available tot he public.

The Navy cadets were not stupid or unaware; they probably just didn't really stop to contemplate the fact that KaZaa and stuff like that is illegal. How often do any of us ponder this before going into a P2P site? It's almost reflexive. They should have realized that the computers they got from the government should not be used like that until they were out of gov't service.

The gov't cares about this because it cannot be seen as passively allowing copyright piracy on gov't equipment, and it also makes it PR difficult to crack down on overseas copyright pirates when our own services are encouraging it.

The record industry is evil, but until the laws change to allow P2P, we have to remember that it is illegal, however unjust that may be, to download...

[Durandal]

Whatever. To equate copywright and intellectual property laws with Hitler's Final Solution is asinine.

Just because a law is on the books doesn't mean that it's ethically sound. You glossed over the context.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

--Check this shit out:
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm ... ID=1803061

The Academy has every right to seize those computers. They are not the students' property until they graduate (as they gradually pay the USN the cost of the machines.) So as long as the students haven't paid off the machines, they're technically Navy property and the Navy can do with them what they see fit (including examining them for evidence of student activities that would go contrary to federal laws and military codes of conduct.)

It's just like when you buy a new car. The dealer has every right to take back your vehicle if you refuse to make the payments.

[CorSec]

Just because a law is on the books doesn't mean that it's ethically sound. You glossed over the context.

Nova exagerrated the analogy. Hysterical accusations such as that aren't worthy of detailed response.

[Mr Bean]

is entrapment to give cadets computers without telling them they are government property and will be searched for anything that is technically illegal

You Bloody Git! Before you even go TO BOOTCAMP you have to sign a pieace of paper saying that you understand that ANY AND ALL of your possesions may be searched AT ANY TIME before they take you into the Armed Services, To get this Computers they must first sign a contract and are AGIAN informed of the Rules! How in Bobs name is that Entrapment! Your informed TWICE and made to sign to somthing of the effect that you WONT break the rules and it has to be witnessed by two Officers and its STILL somehow entrapment?!??!

--Germany had laws when Hitler was in power too. Using your logic those laws were fine too. I don't know what your security clearance level is, but it is still unfair to use information gathered to determine if someone is a spy for reasons other that catching spies, PERIOD !

Strawman-What in Bobs name does Law have to do with Nazi Germany? Yes they had Laws in Nazi Germany JUST LIKE THEY HAVE THEM IN BRITIAN AND AMERICA! Horrors! Are you an Anarchist? As you seem to assoiate LAW with Nazis!
As for your security clearance question we are ALLOWED by Law to say we have one, but NOT what level or what secitions in, Guess thats another Nazi idea as Laws are just like the Nazi's

Don't bullshit me here, These are Laws handed down for years now, approved by Congress and enforced by the Justice system, NOT the Nazi's unless of course you want to say ANY Laws=Nazi Germany

Yes, but they trick these cadets into treating those computers like they are theirs (since they are paying for them) and not gov. property (this type of line blurring is unfair). It is unfair to prosecute these people for having copy write material on them since modifying those computers is permitted under normal circumstances. I doubt you are right about these computers being treated like other gov. hardware, since it's not like they do random searches for other programs/data.

Two problems.... One How where they tricked? That they where not US Property? You know even your PERSONAL property is subject to Goverment Rules in the Army/Navy/Airforce? As for you second question, Yes we DO do Random Searches for Illegle Programs/Data, When I first joined up out of School thats what I DID

[Beowulf]

By Godwin's Law, Nova loses...

[TrailerParkJawa]

Downloading copyrighted material is stealing plain and simple. Most of us have done it, Im just surprised how many people try to "spin" it into a some sorta Robin Hood Symdrome. You have no right to cheap songs. Sorry.

As for the Navy seizing the computers they have every right to. Even if the laptops were personal property of the cadets, they are using them on the NAVY's network. So again, they are subject to monitoring. If you've ever taken care of a network you understand the amount of work that goes on.
Even putting copyright issues aside, Kazaa and other programs like that are great avenues for bringing in security breaches to the network.

Personally, I would send out an email giving everyone 2 weeks to clean up their own machines, after that if you get caught its your fault.

[Mr Bean]

Lets reterate the points to make sure everyone is on the same page

1.When you joined the Armed Forces you agree to praticly no Privacy and you and your possesions can be searched at any time for any reason(Inculding "Cause I felt like it)

2. Armed Forces Computers are Forbbiden from Being Modified/New Software added, Without WRITTEN Permssion from you CO(Until your out of schooling at least)

3. To recive a Computer on Rent, Plan(What this sounds like) you must first sign a contract and read the Armed Forces Reg's for Computer use inculding the Do not Do list and here you are informed of the Written permission thing agian

4.In school all Cadets before touching a Keyboard have to sign said agreement and agree not to break any rules

5. Illegle Downloading on US Armed Forces Bandwidth is one of those Rules

6.So is Downloading and Modifing US Goverment Property

7. They broke both of said rules

[data_link]

If you are in the military, you have no rights. Period. Anyone who thinks differently is an idiot and therefore undeserving of my sympathy.

As for the morality of these searches, if the students had been downloading songs on their own computers on their own property using their own internet connection, then yes, I would find the searches immoral. Considering that they weren't, however - refer to the first paragraph.