Is it possible to ignite flesh?

[Darth Wong]

As the thread title says. I'm not that familiar with the chemistry of the human body except for the fact that it's hydrocarbon-based and mostly water. I know that fats can burn (anyone who's ever BBQ'd something will know that), but what about flesh itself? And if it's possible, what would it take in order to make this happen?

I'm asking because of the way General Grievous got burned to a crisp in ROTS.

[Nova Andromeda]

--This one is easy. Just ask yourself what meat does when you drop it on charcoal (you know, when you are BBQ'ing). First it smokes/dehydrates (which doesn't burn due to high H20 vapor content), then it might burn if it is dehydrated enough before all the otherwise flamable stuff is varporized during the previous process, then it acts like a fully burnt marshmellow or peice of paper (you know the black carbon stuff is slowly oxidized in C02).

[Superman]

I can't help much in the way of calculations, but I can tell you about crematoriums in mortuaries. The temperature usually get to around 1400° to 2100° F, and this burns up the flesh pretty well. All but some of the bones are basically vaporized. The ashes that remain are smashed bone fragments and the remains of the cremation container.

[Crossroads Inc.]

For some reason I'm reminded of the Anime' Full Metel Alchemist' In which one nasty guy was able to turn a Human body into an explosive by slightly altering the natural Chemicals in a person.

[Superman]

For some reason I'm reminded of the Anime' Full Metel Alchemist' In which one nasty guy was able to turn a Human body into an explosive by slightly altering the natural Chemicals in a person.

Uhhh... I don't think so. We're mostly water anyway...

[Darth Wong]

I can't help much in the way of calculations, but I can tell you about crematoriums in mortuaries. The temperature usually get to around 1400° to 2100° F, and this burns up the flesh pretty well. All but some of the bones are basically vaporized. The ashes that remain are smashed bone fragments and the remains of the cremation container.

In the case of Grievous, Aunt Beru, and Uncle Owen, the flames destroyed the bulk of their flesh but were insufficient to destroy the skeletal structure (although in the case of Grievous, that's meaningless since his skeleton is metal).

[Admiral Valdemar]

You would have to dehydrate the flesh to the point of it becoming leather, cells contain an inordinate amount of fluid that means heat usually causes swelling more than anything, and water has a very high thermal capacity.

If you have a directed energy weapon capable of dumping enough energy at once, you could conceivably flash evaporate the water (which alone would kill the subject by cooking and explosive expansion) and singe to the point that the hydrocarbons may just ignite. Thing is, you're talking about some quite high energy input and may just end up blasting the stuff into ash from the get go rather than cause it to burst into flames and continue burning. This is generally why cremations end in very fine ashes rather than have the body ignite and burn itself and why people trapped in burning buildings are simply charred corpses rather than fully combusted mass. It'll take more heat input than you'd expect in a BBQ anyway, but I don't know the exact temperature for ignition (which is harder to attain in air and in open spaces).

[Lord Revan]

As the thread title says. I'm not that familiar with the chemistry of the human body except for the fact that it's hydrocarbon-based and mostly water. I know that fats can burn (anyone who's ever BBQ'd something will know that), but what about flesh itself? And if it's possible, what would it take in order to make this happen?

I'm asking because of the way General Grievous got burned to a crisp in ROTS.

well apart from his eyes, face, lungs and heart Grievous didn't really any natural skin and or flesh left and for all we know synthskin could burn more easily thenregular skin (which can burn under right conditions)

[Lord of the Abyss]

I'm not sure how much this applies, but here. Note the bolded.

Past SHC researchers have blamed everything from excessive alcohol consumption to "geomagnetic fluctuations." Now Joe Nickell and John Fischer, the former a well-known investigator of the paranormal, have analyzed the evidence in 30 cases and concluded that SHC may not be so inexplicable after all.

Here's a rundown of their findings, as published in the Skeptical Inquirer:

In most cases combustion probably wasn't spontaneous. Candlesticks, oil lamps, pipes, and the like were often found near the victims. Mrs. Reeser when last seen alive was smoking a cigarette.
The victims tended to be slow to react. Many were alcoholics; others were elderly, overweight, or handicapped in some way. Mrs. Reeser was 67, weighed 175 pounds, and had a bad leg. The evening before her demise she told her son she had taken two sleeping pills and expected to take two more.
Bodies can be totally consumed at temperatures much lower than previously believed. Proponents of paranormal explanations for SHC often point out that crematoriums use temperatures of 2,000 degrees or more, much hotter than the usual household fire. But experts say high temps are necessary only if the body must be destroyed in a short time. Smoldering fires can consume an entire piece of furniture (and presumably the body within it) if given long enough. Yet they often leave nearby objects undamaged. Twelve hours passed between the time Mrs. Reeser was last seen alive and the time her remains were discovered.
In cases where the body was completely destroyed, there was often a nearby source of combustible material to feed the fire. The floorboards beneath a number of victims were found burnt through; Mrs. Reeser was wearing a flammable nightgown and housecoat and was sitting in an overstuffed chair. In addition--this gets pretty gross--the fuel sources may have served to catch melting body fat which then added to the flames. Call it the "candle effect." A quantity of "grease," Nickell and Fischer note, was found where Mrs. Reeser's chair had stood.
"In the Reeser case, what probably happened was that the chair's stuffing burned slowly, fueled by the melted body fat and aided by partially open windows," Nickell and Fischer conclude. "What has been described as 'probably the best-documented case' of alleged spontaneous human combustion is actually attributable to the deadly combination of a lit cigarette, flammable nightclothes, and sleeping pills."

Grisly stuff, but I thought you'd want to know.

--CECIL ADAMS

[Sea Skimmer]

I don't know if flesh can burn and be self-sustaining, but certainly it can be simply burned if you apply heat to it. Anything can be. C4 explosive for example works mainly through burning, and it can burn through a rather thick chunk of armor plate.

[Pcm979]

I was under the impression that Grevious ignited because the preservative fluids in his gutsack were flammable.

[Broomstick]

The Rhode Island Night Club "The Station" that burned a couple years ago involved human combustion. The crush of bodies in at least one doorway was such that the heads of the victims were insulated well enough that they remained alive and concious even as their feet were reaching the flashpoint of human flesh. They continued to scream and plead for help for several minutes, until dying.

Although clothing no doubt contributed to the blaze, there was evidence of burning human fat and flesh.

The last person pulled from the pile underwent "de-gloving" of her limbs, meaning the subcutaneous fat had melted and thus when rescuers pulled on her hands and feet the skin slipped off like a glove, leaving raw flesh behind. The rescuers had another go at it and got her free. Just after that, the whole pile of people burst into flame.

In other cases, a sudden rise in environmental temperatures can cause the body's fluids to flash into steam, leaving the remaining flesh cooked and shortly after burning merrily away. This has been documented a number of times, such as the firebombing of Toykyo in March of 1945.

Not sure of the exact temperature required - there are a lot of variables, including surronding materials in the environment, ambient temperature and humdity, and so forth. But yes, human flesh can burn and support combustion, even if it usually doesn't.

[Admiral Valdemar]

That happens with napalm strikes, the flesh sloughing off at least. Numerous incidents have people with such high degree burns, that they are essentially cooked on the outside and the slightest touch will cause the skin to drop off exposing sub-dermal or even muscle and bone.

Nightclub fires would be a perfect place for combustion though. Like I say, the closed atmosphere and abundance of people and combustible materials would allow temperatures to soar if trapped during a fire and if you don't combust outright, you'll at least be cooked/suffer burns or suffocated.

[Death from the Sea]

I was under the impression that Grevious ignited because the preservative fluids in his gutsack were flammable.

that kinda makes sense since the fire that killed Grevious travelled up his body like a flame follows flamable liquids or gunpowder. And speaking of gunpowder didn't Grevious kinda spark and flicker like a firework?

[Darth Servo]

You'd think that whats left of Greivous' organics would be pretty dried out.

Anyway here's the classic chemical formula for burning glucose taught in every high school biology class:

C6H12O6 + 6 O2 --> 6 CO2 + 6 H2O

[CaptainChewbacca]

I seem to recall a mythbusters about 'Spontaneous Human Combustion' which concluded it wasn't possible for flesh to burn like that.

[Superman]

I seem to recall a mythbusters about 'Spontaneous Human Combustion' which concluded it wasn't possible for flesh to burn like that.

It is a myth. Check out skepdic or some other debunking site.

Crematories work though...

[Darth Servo]

I seem to recall a mythbusters about 'Spontaneous Human Combustion' which concluded it wasn't possible for flesh to burn like that.

It is a myth. Check out skepdic or some other debunking site.

Crematories work though...

Spontaneuos human combustion is a myth but flesh does burn if ignited.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Their "demonstration" was a ham soaked in lighter-fluid for a year. It wouldn't sustain burning.

[Hillary]

Their "demonstration" was a ham soaked in lighter-fluid for a year. It wouldn't sustain burning.

Saw a programme some years ago about this. Most of the supposed spontaneous combustions were believed to be so as very little of the body was left and the houses they were in did not actually catch fire.

They carried out an experiment with a pig carcass (apparently much the same fat content as your average human - I suspect this is not true of most of the residents of Florida though ) wrapped in a blanket (to simulate clothing) and set alight. They found that the blanket acted as a wick as the fat in the body burned. It caused intense heat, but not a massive flame (explaining why the houses didn't catch fire in SC cases). The body was completely incinerated with the exception of the feet (low fat content). This was consistent with SC cases where usually the lower legs remained.

Very interesting programme, but was some years ago and I can't remember the name or even which channel it was on.

[Dooey Jo]

I saw a programme once where they dipped a twinky in liquid nitrogen and set it on fire (it went something like that, I can't remember for sure), to demonstrate how much energy food contains. It burned almost exactly like Greivous. Maybe the same could be done to flesh. Of course, this most likely cannot be applied to either Greivous, Owen and Beru or SHC, since they were not frozen by more than a hundred degrees...

Although it would make a pretty evil weapon; first a freezing grenade (there was something like that in KotOR) then a small incendiary that makes the victims combust due to the energy content in their flesh

[nickolay1]

It was most likely liquid oxygen.

[Xon]

If you have a directed energy weapon capable of dumping enough energy at once, you could conceivably flash evaporate the water

You would be killed by the organ mushing concussion effects caused by such a rapid expansion of body tissues at vastly lower energies than to flash vaporise your body's water contents.

[Dooey Jo]

It was most likely liquid oxygen.

Yes, that would make more sense. Actually, I don't think they ever said what they dipped the twinky in, just that they froze it down...

[Col. Crackpot]

The Rhode Island Night Club "The Station" that burned a couple years ago involved human combustion. The crush of bodies in at least one doorway was such that the heads of the victims were insulated well enough that they remained alive and concious even as their feet were reaching the flashpoint of human flesh. They continued to scream and plead for help for several minutes, until dying.

Although clothing no doubt contributed to the blaze, there was evidence of burning human fat and flesh.

The last person pulled from the pile underwent "de-gloving" of her limbs, meaning the subcutaneous fat had melted and thus when rescuers pulled on her hands and feet the skin slipped off like a glove, leaving raw flesh behind. The rescuers had another go at it and got her free. Just after that, the whole pile of people burst into flame.

There was also one graphic case from The Station that demonstrated the insulative properties of flesh. One guy at the bottom of the pile burning people survived. He didn't burn for the same reason a roast stays rare in the middle... pretty fucking disturbing if you think about it.