My mother is concerned with my new beliefs...

[Magnetic]

Somehow, today at lunch, the topic of religion came up, and I explained how many of the occurances in the Bible were figurative, meant to teach a lesson of some sort, and not to be taken literally. But my mother, bless her heart, has been in the christian religion ever since she was a little girl. She was trying to get me to understand that she was worried about some of the things I was saying. Mostly about how the flood COULD have happened, but would have taken a HUGE number of increadible miracles for it to have happened. She would say things like, "Either you believe it all, or you don't believe any of it." A kind of 'black and white' way of looking at the Bible, I guess.

After I got back to my office, she called and was saying that she remembered that "they found Noah's Ark on Mt. Ararat and it was well preserved because of the cold and ice, and was around the dimensions given in the Bible", but I told her that they hadn't found it, that it wasn't a true story.

Thing is, I don't want to burden her with what I've burdened myself with. She never discusses her beliefs with anyone, but she's worried about my new way of thinking, because she doesn't want me to "loose my soul" by expressing agnostic beleifs. So, I just ended up listening to what she was saying and responding in a way that would make her think that I'm not "going weird like my oldest brother".

It's rather frustrating. I've learned too much to "just have faith and believe that it happened the way the Bible said it did."

Those of you on here that may be in my shoes, or were once in my shoes, how did you handle your family (those who were of the religious upbringing)?

Thanks..

[Elheru Aran]

Well. Not sure i can help you with most of that, but I can definitely give you some info on the Noah's Ark thing...

It's a favorite subject of the fundies, every now and then another book by some explorer comes out, generally titled something like 'I DISCOVERED NOAH'S ARK' or some such tripe. There've been a buttload of said expeditions; generally they claim to have either a.) been inside/on the actual Ark, or b.) seen it but not gone in, c.) found wood from the Ark, yadda-yadda, you get the idea. Strangely enough, no expedition has ever found it in the exact same place as the other expeditions have...

Basically? Lots of hot air in that, but no reputable proof. The only real evidence has been a few photos of people standing up on the mountain with chunks of old wood, which could've come from anywhere.

This site seems fairly unbiased, but regrettably it's low on the information-- seems to be mostly oriented towards selling its book... http://www.noahsarksearch.com/

And this is pretty highly biased. Oddly enough, it focuses *not* on Mount Ararat, but upon another mountain some distance away, where apparently there's a huge shape of an ark imbedded in the ground... http://arksearch.com/index.htm

Photo for your viewing enjoyment--
[img]http://arksearch.com/images/TurkeyOct1998/judi07.gif[/iimg]

Riiiiiiiiiight.

And, for shit and giggles, the Christian viewpoint--
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a001.html

Quote, Dozens of expeditions to the Ararat region of eastern Turkey, mostly by American Christian groups, have led to numerous claims - but no proof...Further expeditions have taken place in the new millennium, but no proof of the Ark has yet been found.

But efforts are still ongoing. While the Associates for Biblical Research is not engaged in any of these efforts, we are aware of continued research into ancient reports, further testimony from eyewitnesses and renewed efforts to pinpoint the Ark's resting place. More expeditions are pending. If it's up there, we will certainly hear about it, unquote.

In other words: "We don't have any proof, so we're not gonna say it's been found, but if it is, WE TOLD YOU SO!!!1!"

[Anomie]

I was raised Catholic, but even as a child, I couldn't bring myself to buy into the stories they were telling me.

Now my father is Baptist, and didn't have a problem with me declaring myself an agnostic, but my mother was disapointed. Not that I turned my back on the church, she didn't care about that, but that I didn't have a firm faith to turn to in a time of need.

My mother is still bothered by it, but has come to accept my decision.

As for you, is your mother a highly religious person or more of a lipservice parishioner? If she is highly religious, you'll probably be in for a headache, but sooner or later she will have to accept your decision. But even if it turns out that she won't accept it, you should continue with what you belive is right. After all, one interpertation of religon is the discovery of truth, and dometimes you have to discover the truth for yourself.

[Zadius]

I also broke it to my mother over lunch that I was an atheist. She was a little surprised I think, but she took it rather well. However, one thing that struck me was that she seemed to think that I "didn't really believe that god doesn't exist." She also mentioned that she thought I was going through a "rebellion phase." But, she has always been somewhat accepting and tolerant so I believe she will come around.

My grandparents, however, are another story. I have never spoken to them about it, but I've always assumed that my mother has told them. I'm not sure what they think about it all. My grandmother is very religious and very conservative. I hope not to have any confrontations with them about it though.

[FedRebel]

She would say things like, "Either you believe it all, or you don't believe any of it." A kind of 'black and white' way of looking at the Bible, I guess.

I guess that black and white perspective explains why there are a myriad of diffrent forms of christianity

After I got back to my office, she called and was saying that she remembered that "they found Noah's Ark on Mt. Ararat and it was well preserved because of the cold and ice, and was around the dimensions given in the Bible", but I told her that they hadn't found it, that it wasn't a true story.

She might be refering to the "ararat anomoly", but last I heard the turks I believe wouldn't let anyone near the mountain for any reason, so that find can't be confirmed

Those of you on here that may be in my shoes, or were once in my shoes, how did you handle your family (those who were of the religious upbringing)?

Kind of complex for me I'm an Athiest, my uncle is a Catholic priest, my grandfather is a (Catholic) fundi, and my sister is a Methodist.

When the subject of religion comes up, I usually end up defending my own position as well as my sister's who turns around and tries to 'turn' me, all the while my uncle and grandfather try and make me and my sister 'see the light'.

The way it always ends up is, I have my sister in a stalemate and the two steel reinforced concrete walls of catholicism still try to make me 'see the way'.

[Zero]

I was raised a christian, but I never quite bought into it. My mother's quite worried about the exact same things that yours is. She believes quite firmly that I'm going to hell, and she constantly tries to alienate me further from the family by trying to emphasize how left out I am by not believing.

It's never easy for you to have close relatives who believe you're doomed to hell, and I sure as hell don't know what to do. I'm just saying that I sympathize. If you figure out what to do about this kind of thing, be sure to send some answers my way...

...you could also suggest to her that salvation has nothing to do with the old creation myth, and everything to do with "living your life in christ" as they say.

[VT-16]

but last I heard the turks I believe wouldn't let anyone near the mountain for any reason, so that find can't be confirmed

Didn´they finally get access and debunk it properly? I thought I read that recently...

[DrkHelmet]

but last I heard the turks I believe wouldn't let anyone near the mountain for any reason, so that find can't be confirmed

Didn´they finally get access and debunk it properly? I thought I read that recently...

It's hard to debunk properly, since, according to theory, the Ark can only be seen during exceptionally hot/dry summers, because it is covered in snow and ice otherwise. I think I heard that somewhere.

However, several teams have gone up and claimed to have found it, and several have gone up and found nothing.

Several satellites and reconnaisance planes have photographed something that "looks like a ship", but the pictures currently are inconclusive.

The best explanation is that there is some big-ass rock up there that kind of looks like a ship, from the air, and people keep photographing it and saying "Look what I found!"

[DrkHelmet]

Ghetto edit:

That theory assumes that the people who went up and "found" it did not actually find it at all, but were blowing smoke out of their collective asses.

[Steven Snyder]

I would not call anyone a liar if they claimed to have seen a boxy wood structure ontop of Mt. Arat. Afterall there are boxy wood structures all across the globe, the difference is that we accurately label them as houses.

[Rahvin]

I was raised Christian, and started critically examining the literal teachings a few years ago. I went through a muted version of what you seem to be experiencing, Magnetic - literalism never quite gripped me very strongly as a chile, I just didn't bother to question it until after highschool.

I still consider myself Christian, but I'm by no means a literalist of any sort. My parents, and to a greater extent my Grandparents, are. Hell, my recently deceased grandfather was a principle at a Christian High School!

I haven't spoken to my family about my different beliefs, so I really can't offer decent advice. But I can say I sympathize, and remember that only you can decide what to believe in the end. Basing your beliefs on logic and observable evidence rather than blind adherance to an old book is obviously the more rational choice. You're doing the right thing, and don't let yourself feel guilty for disappointing your family by being a rational, intelligent person.

Good luck to you.

[Darth Servo]

Theres always the tried and true "does she believe the Earth has four corners, pillars and foundation" method.

[anybody_mcc]

I would not call anyone a liar if they claimed to have seen a boxy wood structure ontop of Mt. Arat. Afterall there are boxy wood structures all across the globe, the difference is that we accurately label them as houses.

Difference is that Ararat is 4000m+ mountain , and often covered with snow and ice , so i doubt anyone built wooden house on the top.

[Darth Servo]

Difference is that Ararat is 4000m+ mountain , and often covered with snow and ice , so i doubt anyone built wooden house on the top.

WHy not? Don't they do it in Tibet all the time?

[General Trelane (Retired)]

Magnetic,

I was--and still am--in your shoes. Unfortunately, I can offer only two meager crumbs of advice:

1. Don't stop loving your mother--and let her see it; let her know that you appreciate her. Your actions will speak louder than your words ever will.

2. Gently, ever so gently, show her that there are alternatives to literalism. How do you do this? If I knew that, my life would be much happier!

My father has been avoiding speaking to me because I stopped being gentle with him (e.g. at my wife's admonition, I have agreed to avoid discussing homosexuality with him, but if he brings it up, it's fair game unless my wife manages to change the topic). As for my mother, while she seemed to be gaining an understanding of my position, she has recently become more literalist again (thanks in large part to the homophobic reactions in rural Alberta).

One resource that I have found very useful is a book called "The Heart of Christianity" (Marcus Borg)--useful in that it presents a metaphorical/allegorical understanding of the whole of Christianity (which is useful because literalists have a great fear that their entire house-of-cards faith will come tumbling down were they to reject a literal interpretation). Probably not a book to be giving to your mother (my father would probably burn it), but for me, it has helped my to formulate responses to get her to think about other possibilities.

As for the supposed finding of Noah's Ark, the bible is full of statements about how blessed people are for believing without proof, so why are they trying so damn hard to find proof?

[DrkHelmet]

I would not call anyone a liar if they claimed to have seen a boxy wood structure ontop of Mt. Arat. Afterall there are boxy wood structures all across the globe, the difference is that we accurately label them as houses.

That's be one big ass house.

450ft x 75ft x 45ft

[anybody_mcc]

Difference is that Ararat is 4000m+ mountain , and often covered with snow and ice , so i doubt anyone built wooden house on the top.

WHy not? Don't they do it in Tibet all the time?

Tibet is a bit different region , since they sometimes do not have an alternative and even they do not build houses on the summit. No one builds houses on the summit of the 4000m+ mountain in the Ararat area ( as well as whole Caucasus , Alps ( maybe with one exception Margherita Hut , but it's not really wooden house ) , .... ). And frankly probably anywhere , and even if they did , it would not be wooden only house , foundation would be stone.

[kaikatsu]

Aw man, Magnetic. I know EXACTLY what you're going through. I'm in much the same situation myself.

The thing I've found is that logical arguments don't really WORK in situations like that. I might be able to better help you by asking, what, exactly, -do- you believe? You might not be a YEC, but would you consider yourself an athiest, etc? That can have a big impact on how you deal with your family.

[Stark]

Don't push it. It's not worth it. Older people - particularly the parent's of our generation - are, in my experience, almost totally inflexible. Even worse, there's the 'you're my child, I will correct you' short circuit in their brain, so it's pretty unlikely they'll actually CONSIDER what you're saying, instead of simply trying to CORRECT you and your 'wrong' opinions.

[Greymalkin]

I have a certain amount of simpathy for your situation. Understand that as your mother, she is never going not worry about you. Further, I think it must be difficult for a parent to accept that their child has chosen to reject their faith system.

Can I ask you if you still consider yourself a Christian? If you do, you might try telling her that your faith has not changed, just the way you see it. If not, well, I don't have much of an answer.

Also, I would recomend a book as well, Why Christianity Must Change of Die, its by a former Episcopol bishop named John Spong. One of the things he talks about is what you do when your still a Christian, but disagree with the church's teaching.

Beyond that, good luck dude.

[Greymalkin]

Ghetto edit.

That's Why Christianity Must Change or Die, not "of Die". I gues I cannot type tonight.

[Dalton]

I think that my mother thinks that I still believe in god. Fortunately she's fairly religiously liberal (Roman Catholic) so we don't butt heads at all. In fact, we rarely talk about religion at all, but when we do we generally agree on certain aspects of religion that we disapprove of (she's definitely against the whole anti-gay thing and the oppression of women). But she has her own reasons to believe in a deity and I respect that.

My father though knows I'm an atheist, but he fully accepts that (even though I suspect he's a YEC!).

[Zadius]

But she has her own reasons to believe in a deity and I respect that.

My mother told me that her reason for believing is that it makes her feel comfortable. I'm fine with that. I told her that I'm comfortable being an atheist, and she seemed to accept that.

However, secretly, I don't understand how believing in a mass-murdering deity can be comforting, but I wouldn't say that to her.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Difference is that Ararat is 4000m+ mountain , and often covered with snow and ice , so i doubt anyone built wooden house on the top.

WHy not? Don't they do it in Tibet all the time?

It's actually against the law to go up Mt Areat, much less live on it.

The "ark" is just a natural shadow in the ice.

[Haruko]

As I have expressed in another thread at this forum before, I have had clashes with my mother, but I win out knowing more about her religion than she does and knowing much more about the subjects involved, and they were relatively short encounters, never too harsh, at least relatively, knowing how heated things can get when talking about religion. My most recent encounter was my mom wanting to know my thoughts on a certain controversial part of the Bible. After that encounter, she dropped her belief of Biblical innerancy.

All of the encounters were started by either my mom, my sister, or my brother. For instance, one of the earlier encounters with my mom started when my brother asked me a question about God and the origins of life. The reason I share this information is to stress that I've never revealed my beliefs unless they were asked of me. Never had I started an enounter with any of my family members, knowing full well what their beliefs were long before the very first encounter took place. And I've never put them down for it; I've only attacked the validity of such beliefs as biblical innerancy and uncritical acceptance.