Your own mortality

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

This is an issue that I have found myself thinking about lately, how one deals with the fact of their own mortality, and if one thinks big, the mortality of everything. I find it a bit more disquieting than I might've earlier. After all, my view of the universe rejects the supernatural, so I have little choice but to look it right in the eye. And when faced with something so inevitable and infinite, it gives my limited human brain the screaming heebie-jeebies.

So how do the rest of you approach this issue?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

As an added note: The last option defines immortality as the sort invented by humans/other organic sentients. It could include biological immortality, cybernetic immortality, or even effective immortality through computer simulation. Spiritual immortality is covered in the "afterlife" options.

[speaker-to-trolls]

I'm holding out for non-spiritual immortality. I know how horrendously unlikely it is, but I like to entertain the notion, even if, in a way, it's as ridiculous as any religion.

[Mr Bean]

I'm holding out for non-spiritual immortality. If thats uploading myself into the net or cloning myself or what have you.


My fondest wish, my greatest desire in life is to see how it all ends up. Be it heat death, the big crunch, or a giant flaming ball of death. I want to live to see the stars die and the world crumble into dust.


If thats as a ghost in the machine so be it.
However with the way technology is going nowadays I don't know if thats going to be possible before I die. So I resign myself to at least having been alive for this slice of history.

Rage, rage aginst the dieing of the light.

[Steven Snyder]

A few years back I became a father, after that a lot of my perceptions changed. My fear of death was one of the things that changed, for the better I hope. As I watch my son grow up and my parents grow old, I find myself more in synch with the cycle of life and death, and I think I am okay with it.

While I don't want to die by any means, I accept that it is ultimately unavoidable. Sure I can do things to push off the inevitable for a few years, but in the end it is futile. This isn't nihilism though, just an acknowlegement that the clock is ticking and I need to make the most out of my life.

When I was growing up my father sat in a particular chair at the end of the dinner table, always in the same spot. He was the head of the family, no one sat in the chair besides him. My father gracefully gave up that seat for me, both literally and figuratively, his time was over, it was my time now. So it all comes back to my son, one day I am going to have to give up my seat for him, it will be his time...and I can't wait.

[General Zod]

Having hit near rock-bottom once or twice, I figure fuck it. If I die, I guess I'll finally get to see what happens afterwards, but I'm not in any hurry for it. The simple knowledge
that giving up due to a temporary bad circumstance is cowardly is enough of a reason
for me to keep chugging to see how stuff ends out. To say nothing about the uncertainty of what happens after you die. Admittedly some form of immortality would be nice, but I'm not
going to hold my breath.

[Coyote]

I don't care and there is an afterlife. I "don't care" because that's the closest I can come to "it doesn't worry me". I've done dumb and even evil things, but if there is a pennance to be paid for them, I will take it.

In Jewish philosophy, everyone has to pay just and proportionate amounts for their evils. I haven't done anything truly evil, and the "evils" I have done I will face up for. The it's on to the reward phase.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well, if I get rich enough, I'll build a large stone pyramid so that people will remember me several thousand years in the future.

[Civil War Man]

If I die, I die. I'm still young, so I'm in absolutely no hurry to get there, but I'm not going to be looking for chimeras to stave off some fear of death.

I probably would not want to accept immortality, spiritual or not. I'd probably end up like Wowbagger if I did.

[bilateralrope]

Well, if I get rich enough, I'll build a large stone pyramid so that people will remember me several thousand years in the future.

Stick it in orbit so it will last much longer

[dworkin]

"It is impossiable to seriously contemplate the inevitable and then whistle a happy tune." - Anon

I find the best response is just to ignore it. It's not like anything you do is going to prevent the heat death of the universe. Anytime you are forced to confront it (like at a funeral) then the copius imbibing of grain alcohols works wonders.

[Lord Zentei]

There is no such thing as immortality, spiritual or otherwise. Just hold on as long as you can, and enjoy the ride.

[Tasoth]

I've pondered it and what can I do? I can seek immortality in the works I leave behind and that is it. So that is what I strive for. And unfortunately I feel very non-constructive.

[Zadius]

What's no great about life anyway. I'm not crying over those thousands of years that I missed out on thoughout history. As long as my death is not too painful, I don't give a fuck.

[Darth Raptor]

Sometimes I'm obsessed with this issue to a crippling extreme, other times I'm merely preoccupied with it. To stave off total psychological collapse and dispair, I've had to make a few unfounded, illogical assumptions about the universe in which we live. The only, I repeat, only defense I have for these beliefs is that they are slightly more plausible than your traditional religions. To sum it up:

Some physical laws can be broken, others bent. This doesn't mean they aren't true in the natural world, just that our understanding is so incomplete at this point that we will eventually find ways around them. We will eventually conquer relativity- enabling us to go faster than light. This doesn't mean relativity isn't true. Likewise, we will conquer entropy- enabling us to sustain the universe eternally (I'm basically reaching that there's a way to create matter and energy from nonexistence). Finally, just to maintain my last vestiges of sanity I believe that in the distant future we will master time travel, but not time travel in the popular sense. And that perfect observational technology coupled with time travel will make for a perfect record of the entire history of the universe.

From this perfect record every living thing, every consciousness that has ever existed will be restored to live in the perfect future world (be it a simulation or "real") and that world will continue to exist forever. I don't care if I'm revived in a biological or cybernetic body (or a combination therof) or if my consciousness merely exists as a virtual program. The belief that this will happen eventually is the only thing that really keeps me a functioning member of society, and out of the straight jacket.

[darthdavid]

It worries me but I'm given comfort by this quote (approx) by Mark Twain
"I was dead for thousands of years before I was born and it didn't bother me one bit."

[darthdavid]

Sometimes I'm obsessed with this issue to a crippling extreme, other times I'm merely preoccupied with it. To stave off total psychological collapse and dispair, I've had to make a few unfounded, illogical assumptions about the universe in which we live. The only, I repeat, only defense I have for these beliefs is that they are slightly more plausible than your traditional religions. To sum it up:

Some physical laws can be broken, others bent. This doesn't mean they aren't true in the natural world, just that our understanding is so incomplete at this point that we will eventually find ways around them. We will eventually conquer relativity- enabling us to go faster than light. This doesn't mean relativity isn't true. Likewise, we will conquer entropy- enabling us to sustain the universe eternally (I'm basically reaching that there's a way to create matter and energy from nonexistence). Finally, just to maintain my last vestiges of sanity I believe that in the distant future we will master time travel, but not time travel in the popular sense. And that perfect observational technology coupled with time travel will make for a perfect record of the entire history of the universe.

From this perfect record every living thing, every consciousness that has ever existed will be restored to live in the perfect future world (be it a simulation or "real") and that world will continue to exist forever. I don't care if I'm revived in a biological or cybernetic body (or a combination therof) or if my consciousness merely exists as a virtual program. The belief that this will happen eventually is the only thing that really keeps me a functioning member of society, and out of the straight jacket.

Not to put you in a straight jacket, but you do realize that there's a good chance that even if this happens you won't know 'cause it'll just be a duplicate of you.

[aerius]

When I go I go and that's that. One day I'll die and that'll be the end of it. All I can hope for is that I've lived a good life and died peacefully. I barely think about it and don't worry, doesn't do me any good and just brings the day closer.

[Darth Raptor]

Not to put you in a straight jacket, but you do realize that there's a good chance that even if this happens you won't know 'cause it'll just be a duplicate of you.

No, it will be me. I am my consciousness, my cognitive processes and the sum of my memories. That is me. Pointing out that I can be duplicated only makes it more cool.

[darthdavid]

Not to put you in a straight jacket, but you do realize that there's a good chance that even if this happens you won't know 'cause it'll just be a duplicate of you.

No, it will be me. I am my consciousness, my cognitive processes and the sum of my memories. That is me. Pointing out that I can be duplicated only makes it more cool.

You don't understand. You have a program on a computer. You copy it and all it's saved settings and shit on to another computer. It's still the same stuff, but yet it's not. Because the origional may be deleted or moved. Now If they did a slow transfer, with your brain hooked into a machine (physically or otherwise) and kinda ran 'em parallel, transferring more function to the machine as more neurons died untill it was just the machine It would be the actual person in my book. But if it's just *Poof* instant transfer, it's a copy. It might be a copy with the origional destroyed but that matters little. It's still somewhat comforting that a form of you is still in existance but it's not you.

[Darth Raptor]

You don't understand. You have a program on a computer. You copy it and all it's saved settings and shit on to another computer. It's still the same stuff, but yet it's not. Because the origional may be deleted or moved.

Mm hm, but you're placing undue importance on the physical "original" when it's not even a qualifier of what I use to define myself. The oblivion of my current form won't matter- after all, it's oblivion. The duplicate (or duplicates!) will pick up where the previous iteration of my consciousness left off, without missing a beat.

Now If they did a slow transfer, with your brain hooked into a machine (physically or otherwise) and kinda ran 'em parallel, transferring more function to the machine as more neurons died untill it was just the machine It would be the actual person in my book. But if it's just *Poof* instant transfer, it's a copy. It might be a copy with the origional destroyed but that matters little. It's still somewhat comforting that a form of you is still in existance but it's not you.

So what distinguishes a copy from the original is the speed at which the duplicate is synthesized? Sorry, I don't see how that's important. Is it because we're constantly in a state of flux and you define self as the ever-changing sum of everything you've ever been? If that's the case you already have immortality- you'll just gradually decompose into your most basic elements devoid of heat. I want to be preserved as I am and then made even more complex.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Not to put you in a straight jacket, but you do realize that there's a good chance that even if this happens you won't know 'cause it'll just be a duplicate of you.

No, it will be me. I am my consciousness, my cognitive processes and the sum of my memories. That is me. Pointing out that I can be duplicated only makes it more cool.

How do you resolve the continuity problem, then? Certainly, in the future your ultimate universe simulator may come about, and in it, your life will be simulated, and in at least one of the simulation runs, the sim living your life would share enough in common with you that he would be, for all intents and purposes, you. However you will have died some arbitrarily large number of years before, and your sims will likely have no knowledge that you ever existed, or that they are sims. And they could concievably have this exchange on this board all over again. It's less personal immortality, and more your life and its permutations being replayed, from birth to death, over and over again, without you ever being the wiser.

Though, I suppose, technically they'd all be you. And what if what you're hoping might come to pass has already come to pass, and this happens to be one of the many universe simulations, and you've replied to this thread n times already and in n ways?

[Darth Raptor]

How do you resolve the continuity problem, then? Certainly, in the future your ultimate universe simulator may come about, and in it, your life will be simulated, and in at least one of the simulation runs, the sim living your life would share enough in common with you that he would be, for all intents and purposes, you. However you will have died some arbitrarily large number of years before, and your sims will likely have no knowledge that you ever existed, or that they are sims. And they could concievably have this exchange on this board all over again. It's less personal immortality, and more your life and its permutations being replayed, from birth to death, over and over again, without you ever being the wiser.

Hee! I'm talking about being revived to take part in the future world, not just replay this one. Also, my new self (or selves) will have my memories so my identity will remain intact. Also, endlessly simulating the universe from Big Bang to Heat Death over and over again seems pretty shitty and pointless. Not something my ideal transcient society would do.

And what if what you're hoping might come to pass has already come to pass, and this happens to be one of the many universe simulations, and you've replied to this thread n times already and in n ways?

Again, that's not exactly what I mean, but by the nature of my assumptions what will happen paradoxically already has happened. After all, what possible mechanism could you have for perfect observational ability? You'd have to seed every subatomic particle in the universe. What better time to do that than when the universe was all in one time and place? To take it a bit further, what if the survailance devices are the atoms themselves? And what if the transcient civilization of the distant future is responsible for the universe's creation? What if we, something we created, or one of our neighbors (or all of the above) turn out to be "god" or to create "god". I'm far too right-brained to even begin considering that there may be infinite, parallel universes.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

How do you resolve the continuity problem, then? Certainly, in the future your ultimate universe simulator may come about, and in it, your life will be simulated, and in at least one of the simulation runs, the sim living your life would share enough in common with you that he would be, for all intents and purposes, you. However you will have died some arbitrarily large number of years before, and your sims will likely have no knowledge that you ever existed, or that they are sims. And they could concievably have this exchange on this board all over again. It's less personal immortality, and more your life and its permutations being replayed, from birth to death, over and over again, without you ever being the wiser.

Hee! I'm talking about being revived to take part in the future world, not just replay this one. Also, my new self (or selves) will have my memories so my identity will remain intact. Also, endlessly simulating the universe from Big Bang to Heat Death over and over again seems pretty shitty and pointless. Not something my ideal transcient society would do.

In order to recreate/revive you, the universe must first be simulated to a sufficient degree that you can be captured. And to capture you, we have to simulate the lives of your ancestors, and your friends and enemies, the evolution of humankind, the formation of the Earth. To recreate the consciousness of a six-armed sapient amphibian who evolved on Earth ten million years after humanity went extinct, you would have to be simulated from birth to death, so your impact upon the environment could be captured. We'd also have to simulate your friends and family from birth to death, and your descendants too, to capture the interactions between them and the tree-frogs who would eventually evolve into the six-armed sapient amphibians. And for that matter, the impact of your descendants upon other civilizations on other planets would have to be considered as well. Arguably, all of your permutations, the permutations of the six-armed amphibians of future Earth, and the permutations of Xylgor Z'thramasa of Korma-du'uhn IV would be considered sufficiently unique to deserve being resurrected to take part in your "ideal transcient society." As a result, the universe would have to be simulated once for each of the possible permutations of each of you and everybody else too. Though they could concievably save time some time by only simulating the universe out to the death of the last life-supporting red dwarf star of the last galaxy, instead of all the way to maximum entropy, and we can safely skip all the starting universe conditions that don't generate habitable universes.

A lot of simulating would still have to be done, though.

And what if what you're hoping might come to pass has already come to pass, and this happens to be one of the many universe simulations, and you've replied to this thread n times already and in n ways?

Again, that's not exactly what I mean, but by the nature of my assumptions what will happen paradoxically already has happened. After all, what possible mechanism could you have for perfect observational ability? You'd have to seed every subatomic particle in the universe. What better time to do that than when the universe was all in one time and place? To take it a bit further, what if the survailance devices are the atoms themselves? And what if the transcient civilization of the distant future is responsible for the universe's creation? What if we, something we created, or one of our neighbors (or all of the above) turn out to be "god" or to create "god". I'm far too right-brained to even begin considering that there may be infinite, parallel universes.

With a sufficient amount of time, power, computational ability, and patience, you could arbitrarily simulate and track every last particle of the universe down to the smallest level you could observe. Of course, this begs the question of just how far down you'd have to observe in order to satisfy the goal of finding every possible sapient mind to resurrect in your ideal society.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

Put down option 5. It bugs me on occasion, but I accept it from time to time. Sometimes, it scares the living shit out of me. Part of me doesn't want to die, I either down want to go to the afterlife (even of I'm heaven bound) b/c I think that drastic of a change is unsettling to a degree. Then there the notion that there is no afterlife that scares me even more.

Perhaps I should have picked the last Option.