Veganism and organic foods

[Enforcer Talen]

As several of my friends are heading in this direction, I am curious. Is veganism healthier? Is it psudoscience? What diets do you do to maintain health?

[Akhlut]

As far as "healthier" goes, I'm not entirely certain. A person's individual biochemistry has a lot to do with it. People of Eskimo/Inuit and Norse descent most likely shouldn't try a totally vegan diet, as they require meat in their diets, whereas, say, an Indian (as in, from India) would be far better adapted for a vegan diet.

I've heard a lot about some problems with adequate vitamins (B12 being the primary example) that are obtained mostly from animal tissue and the like, so, if you decide to go vegan, be advised that that might be a problem.

As for my own diet, well, I fully admit that I eat far less healthily than I should, but I think the classic diet of a lot of fruits, vegetables, and cereal-products with moderate dairy and meat and relatively low fats is a good diet, especially when combined with daily exercise. Don't know how helpful this is, but, there ya go.

[General Zod]

As several of my friends are heading in this direction, I am curious. Is veganism healthier? Is it psudoscience? What diets do you do to maintain health?

It's mainly bunk. It's totally possible to have healthy diets without going the veggie route, but you have to moderate your fat and sugar intakes and make sure you eat a balanced meal as opposed to, say, eating pizza five nights in a row.

[Erik von Nein]

As several of my friends are heading in this direction, I am curious. Is veganism healthier? Is it psudoscience? What diets do you do to maintain health?

Straight "no animal products of any kind, including supplements (most B vitamins are only produced by animals)" is less healthy. Though, a healthy diet would include more veggitables and fruits with less emphasis put on meat products, meat products (or, at least, supplements) are vital to our diet.

[Broomstick]

As several of my friends are heading in this direction, I am curious. Is veganism healthier? Is it psudoscience? What diets do you do to maintain health?

A strict Vegan diet - that is, absolutely NO foods of animal origin whatsoever, will eventually cause nerve damage and death if you don't supplement with B12, at the very least. For better or worse, this damage/death will not occur for a decade or more so while initially it may appear healthier it will, eventually, cause you serious harm.

Veganfanatics will sometimes counter that there are groups, such as the Jain, who have subsisted for centuries without animal derieved foods. Well, in one sense, yes - but in the traditional settings in India foodstuffs have insect/animal contamination at a level that isn't (usually) visibly obvious but sufficient to provide trace nutrients of animal origin that, apparently, is enough to mitigate the downsides of the dietary restriction. One of the major medical journals last year published a study that showed that Jains that moved to the UK, where there is far less contamination of foodstuffs, did tend to eventually develop symptoms of B12 deficiencies and similar problems.

Another example is the use of things like "sea vegetables" - being of wild origin, they, too, tend to be contaminated with various forms of small animal life. Traditionally, the whole mess went into the pot and the occassional minute crab or shrimp or piece of fish crap provided micronutrients (gross, yes, but ask any dung beetle - there can be nutrition in shit) that may be absent in the cooking of a fanatical and overly-hygenic Vegan that might take pains to wash off their kelp, kombu, and dulse before eating it.

If a Vegan supplements the needed nutrients he/she can live indefinitely on a non-animal derieved diet in good health. However, many Vegans object to supplements either because they're "unnatural" (well, so is their diet), or because of fears of animal-derivation of the supplements.

Another problem concerns overall, rather than trace, nutrients. Vegetarian cultures tend to have cooking traditions that maximize nutrition, probably because the ones that screwed this up badly died from malnutrition. So, things like the rice/beans or grain/peas combinations which maximize the usable protein in plant foods crop up again and again in traditional cultures. Smart vegans will typically eat in a similar manner, borrowing heavily from such cultures' cuisines.... but not all of these folks are smart or educated and may eat a wildly unbalanced diet, resulting in nutritional deficiencies of a fairly major nature.

Infants and young children require more fats and oils than adult for proper central nervous system development and the caloric needs of a rapidly growing body. This may be extremely difficult to achieve from a vegan diet, and people raised vegan, either from traditional cultures or in the modern cultures, tend to be smaller and less muscular than their counterparts.

Women will find it difficult to get adequate iron from a vegan diet. Not impossible, just really difficult. Supplements might be a good idea, again. Folic acid - another B vitamin - might also be problematic. Fact is, most women regardless of diet don't really get enough folic acid from their food. Since this increases the risk of neural tube defects in their offspring (a devasting mal-development that typically results in life-long disabilty and suffering, or may just simply kill the kid at or shortly after birth) this is a serious issue.

In short, all vegans should take B12 supplements. All vegan women should probably take iron and folic acid supplements as well. At a minimum.

A person can be healthy on a properly supplemented vegan diet. You can also maintain health on the nearly 100% meat diet of the Inuit, too (although if you do you will, like the Inuit, need to eat some of it raw to obtain your vitamin C). Neither diet is "natural" to the human body. We are clearly evolved to eat some animal-origin foods, even if only occassionally and small critters/insects will do.

Most westerners would do better if they ate more fruits, vegetables, and whole grains, and in that sense experimentation with a vegan diet, or eating a vegan diet for a relatively short period might boost one's health. Certainly, most vegans I've known don't stick with the strict diet for more than a couple years, after which there is a tendency to loosen up. An occassional "lapse" into animal-derieved foods every couple of years will be sufficient to avoid the B12 problem. But life long? No, not good for you over the long haul of decades.

[Sriad]

As several of my friends are heading in this direction, I am curious. Is veganism healthier? Is it psudoscience? What diets do you do to maintain health?

If they are gravitating veganwards for philosophical reasons (minimization of cruelty, inverse golden rule, or stupidity of turning ten pounds of grain into one pound of cow) fine, their axe to grind, more power to 'em.

If they are doing it for purely health reasons, however, they should stop right now.

The B12 and other nutritional concerns are pretty solid, and it is vastly easier to eat a healthy animal-product-included diet than one without.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The minimization of cruelty is bull too. The numbers of animals that die from agriculture or are displaced because of it is blood on their hands too. You simply can't have a diet today that doesn't harm the ecosystem somewhere down the line. One day, one animal will die from harvesting your grain or something similarly disturbing to these people.

They're at least only harming themselves (at worst, they can harm children which is wrong) unlike PETA who go out of their way to fuck over humanity.

[Quadlok]

The minimization of cruelty is bull too. The numbers of animals that die from agriculture or are displaced because of it is blood on their hands too. You simply can't have a diet today that doesn't harm the ecosystem somewhere down the line. One day, one animal will die from harvesting your grain or something similarly disturbing to these people.

We have a wonderful illustration of that point around here. Every year, around the time of the grain harvest in the Eastern half of the state, a large portion of our raptor population vanishes for a few weeks. Where did they go? To feast on the mangled carcasses of small animals that were killed by combines.

And if you're worried about cruelty, just buy from small local operations. The animals tend to roam free, get a good bit of personal attention, good medical care, and perhaps even get to go on a nice trip to meet all sorts of people at a local fair. Then one day, they are transported to a place they haven't been before and shot cleanly through the head. True, I left out the whole balls getting cut or suffocated off bit, but honestly, it doesn't hurt them for very long, and it isn't like they were likely to get to use them much anyway.

[Vendetta]

As for my own diet, well, I fully admit that I eat far less healthily than I should, but I think the classic diet of a lot of fruits, vegetables, and cereal-products with moderate dairy and meat and relatively low fats is a good diet, especially when combined with daily exercise. Don't know how helpful this is, but, there ya go.

Broadly, yes. You should also try and eat fish, particularly oily fish, once or twice a week. Fish oils contain Omega 3 Fatty acids, which are very good for you, and are especially good for getting energy to your brain.

[Spyder]

Some important vitimins are only available from animal products. I have heard people actually describe veganism as an eating disorder for this fact alone.

[CaptJodan]

Ok, I'll chime in here.

I am, in no way shape or form, a Vegan, and could never be. However I am a moderately strict vegitarian, a level up. I still eat eggs, couldn't do without cheese and cream, and on occasion will eat certain types of fish, but that is the extent of my dabble in the meat category.

For a bit of history, I was raised a vegitarian by two meat eaters. My mother raised me as a vegitarian primarily because she did believe it was a healthier lifestyle to live. She didn't ban eggs, cheeses, creams, etc but pretty much barred me from anything else. Also my father worked against her much of the time by taking me to places like Wendys and such for a hamburger or getting a hotdog at a game or something. At the age of 12 I was given the choice to choose meat, and did for a time. Soon after this started I began to develop case after case of food poisoning or stomach flus, and would have the most god awful throw up sessions every 15 minutes for 24 or more hours. That, coupled with my then feeling of guilt of somehow betraying God (Dont ask) led me back to vegitariansim, where I haven't had those problems since.

I'm very comfortable with the vegitarian lifestyle (except for the increase in prices for the meat suppliments), and still from time to time dabble in things like Mahi Mahi, Grouper, or Bass.

So my question is, am I under the same threat a Vegan is, according to the data that is out there? I honestly don't exactly feel excited about the idea of going back to eating meat, and I've never liked chicken from the get go. Should I be craming down B-12 suppliments?

[Spyder]

Should I be craming down B-12 suppliments?

I'd strongly advise it. B-12 is best taken from red meat and a deficiency in it causes all kinds of health problems.

[Broomstick]

Red meat is no better a source of B12 than any other animal flesh. There's nothing magical about red meat.

CaptJodan, don't sweat it. You're probably eating closer to the ideal than the rest of us. Your eggs, dairy, and occassional fish should easily supply all the B12 your body will ever need. Assuming you're not female, you should also be getting sufficient iron. If you eat beans, whole grains, and dark green vegetables you should also be getting sufficient levels of folate for a male as well. You might have to watch for calcium definciency later in life, depending on just how much dairy/other calcium source you have, but then meat eaters are at risk for that, too.

[Spyder]

I take it back, after doing some more reading it looks as though you can get B12 from eggs and dairy products as well.

Oh, and the suppliments might not be such a great idea.

Researchers have suggested that supposed B12 supplements such as spirulina may in fact increase the risk of B12 deficiency disease, as the B12 analogues can compete with B12 and inhibit metabolism.

Although apparently you can get plenty of B12 from human feces.

Bacteria present in the large intestine are able to synthesise B12. In the past, it has been thought that the B12 produced by these colonic bacteria could be absorbed and utilised by humans. However, the bacteria produce B12 too far down the intestine for absorption to occur, B12 not being absorbed through the colon lining.

Human faeces can contain significant B12. A study has shown that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed vegetables which had been fertilised with human manure. Faecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low. This may be responsible for the lack of aneamia due to B12 deficiency in vegan communities in developing countries.

[wolveraptor]

Although apparently you can get plenty of B12 from human feces.

Chow down kids! It's fresh.

It seems more difficult to maintain health as a vegan, what with supplements (which may be less digestible than natural sources) and all. Also, the lack of protein, while not fatal, can make you sort of skinny. Don't even hope to have rippling pecs.

Also note that protein filled meals tend to fill you faster. You can go to all meat restaurants like Sal and Carvaos and be full in 10 minutes. Worried about weight? Don't be a Vegan. You can just as easily get fat on vegetarian foods, especially grain, as you can on meat.

[Sriad]

The minimization of cruelty is bull too. The numbers of animals that die from agriculture or are displaced because of it is blood on their hands too. You simply can't have a diet today that doesn't harm the ecosystem somewhere down the line. One day, one animal will die from harvesting your grain or something similarly disturbing to these people.

We have a wonderful illustration of that point around here. Every year, around the time of the grain harvest in the Eastern half of the state, a large portion of our raptor population vanishes for a few weeks. Where did they go? To feast on the mangled carcasses of small animals that were killed by combines.

And if you're worried about cruelty, just buy from small local operations. The animals tend to roam free, get a good bit of personal attention, good medical care, and perhaps even get to go on a nice trip to meet all sorts of people at a local fair. Then one day, they are transported to a place they haven't been before and shot cleanly through the head. True, I left out the whole balls getting cut or suffocated off bit, but honestly, it doesn't hurt them for very long, and it isn't like they were likely to get to use them much anyway.

Stooopid stupid strawmen there, sirs. Saying killing animals deliberately to eat them and killing them accidently in the course of harvesting produce...

Okay, first of all the animals are being fed before they can be killed and eaten by people, so that's far more critters killed/displaced than would be for plant farming alone...

As for humanely executed animals, you're missing the Inverse Golden Rule (do unto your inferiors as you wish your superiors to do unto you) part.

[Quadlok]

Stooopid stupid strawmen there, sirs. Saying killing animals deliberately to eat them and killing them accidently in the course of harvesting produce...

Okay, first of all the animals are being fed before they can be killed and eaten by people, so that's far more critters killed/displaced than would be for plant farming alone...

As for humanely executed animals, you're missing the Inverse Golden Rule (do unto your inferiors as you wish your superiors to do unto you) part.

Depends on how you feed them, and its still true that anyone who eats grain still has the blood of cute fluffy bunnies on their hands. As to your second point, it's complete bullshit. I know full well if I go into the African bush or a shark infested reef, I run the risk of getting eaten, but I'm not there, and in my natural element, I'm the one who does the eating. All we are is animals who were smart enough to move past our physical limitations, and as such, we are the world's most effective predators. Until whales develop firearms or an advanced alien race comes along, I'm not worried about meeting my superiors.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Sriad, how does animals dying from mass farming not equal hypocrisy on the part of the supposedly animal friendly veggies and vegans? The whole bloody point is that their method, one they actively go out of the way to make sure doesn't involve animal products, still kills animals anyway. Hence, they are hypocritical little twats when they harp on about cruel carnivores (a concept so mindnumbingly dumb as to warrant a law against).

The rest of your post was hot air of some sort.

[Sriad]

Sriad, how does animals dying from mass farming not equal hypocrisy on the part of the supposedly animal friendly veggies and vegans? The whole bloody point is that their method, one they actively go out of the way to make sure doesn't involve animal products, still kills animals anyway. Hence, they are hypocritical little twats when they harp on about cruel carnivores (a concept so mindnumbingly dumb as to warrant a law against).

MINIMIZATION of cruelty is what I wrote. You can't avoid killing things all together unless you stop eating, surrender your body to infectious bacteria and die, and any veggie worth speaking with intelligently will realize this.

Who's harping about "cruel carnivores"? We're talking about PEOPLE here, who can eat whatever amount of meat they choose, not wolves or something that can't get food in a way that doesn't involve killing animals to eat.

[Sriad]

Depends on how you feed them

So... you can feed them grain and have all the problems inherent there anyway plus killing more animals at the end of the process, or you can put them out on the open fields, erecting miles of fencing to keep predetors out (then crusading against predators anyway) and destroying migratory routes of native wildlife.

This is better than combining ground hogs how? Try again. If there's some magical no-loss method of cow-getting I'm missing enlighten me, by all means.

and its still true that anyone who eats grain still has the blood of cute fluffy bunnies on their hands.

If you assign moral weight to the lives of animals, blood of cows+pigs+bunnies>blood of bunnies only.

As to your second point, it's complete bullshit. I know full well... [misdirection clipped] All we are is animals who were smart enough to move past our physical limitations, and as such, we are the world's most effective predators.

Sir, cows aren't going on a fantastic vacation where there's a small risk of being eaten. They are being taken on a generally dismal voyage with a certain end.

Until whales develop firearms or an advanced alien race comes along, I'm not worried about meeting my superiors.

The IGR isn't as academic as all that. You can look at it as a solid managerial philosophy in corporate life, or expand it to a rather more theoretical position in support of not killing things you don't have to.

Saying "I have no superior so it isn't worth my consideration" is lazy.

I'm not trying to convert you guys to veggieism here; I'm a quite satisfied meat eater myself. I'm just playing Devil's advocate to try and demonstrate they aren't as totally off their nut as SD.neters often try to say.

[CaptJodan]

And by the way, there are some of us (vegitarians that is) that don't give two shits about how a cow is treated, just to throw that in. I know I don't. My choice was made out of health concerns, not some stupid animal's concerns.

Course I dont' think vegitarians can claim that supposed moral high ground anyway, since we still will eat chicken eggs and cows milk, all extracted by evil, mean humans who's only purpose in life is to torture the poor bastards.

I've never really understood their position anyway.

PS. Thanks for the responses. Learned a bit, and I see others did too.

[Admiral Valdemar]

MINIMIZATION of cruelty is what I wrote. You can't avoid killing things all together unless you stop eating, surrender your body to infectious bacteria and die, and any veggie worth speaking with intelligently will realize this.

Who's harping about "cruel carnivores"? We're talking about PEOPLE here, who can eat whatever amount of meat they choose, not wolves or something that can't get food in a way that doesn't involve killing animals to eat.

Which is the type of person I was talking about, the masses of likely pro-PETA fucktards who claim their meat free, dairy free diet is totally kind to animals. Obviously, anyone with a functioning brain will see farming kills, in fact, humans existing is misery for animals. But I only seem to hear the most from the louder mouthed moral veggies on their pedestals.

They also tend to be the same people arguing that a pure vegan diet for example is the natural diet, or some other tosh.

[Quadlok]

Depends on how you feed them

So... you can feed them grain and have all the problems inherent there anyway plus killing more animals at the end of the process, or you can put them out on the open fields, erecting miles of fencing to keep predetors out (then crusading against predators anyway) and destroying migratory routes of native wildlife.

This is better than combining ground hogs how? Try again. If there's some magical no-loss method of cow-getting I'm missing enlighten me, by all means.

I own cows, jackass, and they aren't disrupting shit. The fact is, their helping the ecosystem, as otherwise the land they're on would just be another damned subdivision. Instead, its bird habitat. You're talking large scale, I'm talking small scale.

and its still true that anyone who eats grain still has the blood of cute fluffy bunnies on their hands.

If you assign moral weight to the lives of animals, blood of cows+pigs+bunnies>blood of bunnies only.

Pigs are horrible, aggressive, cannibalistic animals, and cows aren't bright enough to know or care whats going on. But basically, they're all animals, and they would get eaten on a regular basis in the wild anyway.

As to your second point, it's complete bullshit. I know full well... [misdirection clipped] All we are is animals who were smart enough to move past our physical limitations, and as such, we are the world's most effective predators.

Sir, cows aren't going on a fantastic vacation where there's a small risk of being eaten. They are being taken on a generally dismal voyage with a certain end.

So what? They've been bred for ten thousand years for that very purpose! And anyway, instead of an 8 year fight for survival and slim chance of mating, they get 2 years in which all they do is eat and screw around with other steers.

Until whales develop firearms or an advanced alien race comes along, I'm not worried about meeting my superiors.

The IGR isn't as academic as all that. You can look at it as a solid managerial philosophy in corporate life, or expand it to a rather more theoretical position in support of not killing things you don't have to.

Saying "I have no superior so it isn't worth my consideration" is lazy.

Morality very rarely enters into corporate culture, and since we do eat what we kill, I fail to see what the second part of your point has to do with anything.

And how is it lazy to say that the rule you mentioned doesn't apply to people unde rmost circumstances?

I'm not trying to convert you guys to veggieism here; I'm a quite satisfied meat eater myself. I'm just playing Devil's advocate to try and demonstrate they aren't as totally off their nut as SD.neters often try to say.

In other words, you decided to stir the shit.

[wolveraptor]

Technically, minimizing cruelty would be destroying every predator, and taking complete control of the environment by killing the natural prey and eating it, as well as doing so to control natural populations. Without the constant stress of predators, herbivores could lead blissful lives, struggling only with the uncontrollables of environmental disaster, until one day they were sniped by a hunter in the head, dying utterly without pain.

If you really wanted to go all the way, you could take the predators, and, instead of destroying them, domesticate them all and keep them in large, luxuriant zoos where they are fed their meals. Then you could hire people to play with them, to stop them from being bored out of their skulls.

Of course, the cost of such an operation would solve humanities population problem, but that would be the best way to minimize cruelty to animals. As Darwin said, Nature herself is painful. Minimize suffering by adopting your animal today!

[Sriad]

This is better than combining ground hogs how? Try again. If there's some magical no-loss method of cow-getting I'm missing enlighten me, by all means.

I own cows, jackass, and they aren't disrupting shit. The fact is, their helping the ecosystem, as otherwise the land they're on would just be another damned subdivision. Instead, its bird habitat. You're talking large scale, I'm talking small scale.

...so I'm a jackass because I'm looking at things on a large scale? Large scale is what a meat eating culture requires, not a couple dozen head of cattle kept by guys on the outskirts of town.

If you assign moral weight to the lives of animals, blood of cows+pigs+bunnies>blood of bunnies only.

Pigs are horrible, aggressive, cannibalistic animals, and cows aren't bright enough to know or care whats going on. But basically, they're all animals, and they would get eaten on a regular basis in the wild anyway.

So basically, much like humans in both cases?
Saying "it happens in the wild" isn't much of a justification for anything from my point of view, given that cannibalism, rape, and plenty of other behaviours generally accepted to be despicable occur in nature. (like sodomy! Oh noes! )

Sir, cows aren't going on a fantastic vacation where there's a small risk of being eaten. They are being taken on a generally dismal voyage with a certain end.

So what? They've been bred for ten thousand years for that very purpose! And anyway, instead of an 8 year fight for survival and slim chance of mating, they get 2 years in which all they do is eat and screw around with other steers.

I see, "we've been doing it for a long time so it's okay" followed by the suggestion that being a herd animal for 1/4 of ones lifespan in the wilderness is a gift. Two points for your side!

Morality very rarely enters into corporate culture

Certainly much more rarely than it should.

and since we do eat what we kill, I fail to see what the second part of your point has to do with anything.

Maybe you should read it again? I said "not killing things you don't have to" because people don't need to eat cow to live, not because I think people are in the habit of killing cows and then leave them to rot or something similarly recockulous.

And how is it lazy to say that the rule you mentioned doesn't apply to people unde rmost circumstances?

Because it does apply to people under many circumstances. An average person deals with all kinds of people from a position of patronism in an average week.

I'm not trying to convert you guys to veggieism here; I'm a quite satisfied meat eater myself. I'm just playing Devil's advocate to try and demonstrate they aren't as totally off their nut as SD.neters often try to say.

In other words, you decided to stir the shit.

Yea, I was feeling rusty. Too much aggreement going on except the occasional troll scuttling.

a slippery slope fallacy

Fine, read "minimize cruelty that you yourself inflict" or something.