How are catholics not christians?

defanatic · Post by **defanatic** » 2005-09-24 06:32pm

How are catholics not christians?
Are they not christians in the same way Jews are not christians (who do not believe Jesus was the son of god)?
Are they not christians in the same way atheists are not christians (who want nothing to do with their belief system)?

How different is catholicism from christianity?

Post by **fgalkin** » 2005-09-24 06:34pm

defanatic wrote:How are catholics not christians?
Are they not christians in the same way Jews are not christians (who do not believe Jesus was the son of god)?
Are they not christians in the same way atheists are not christians (who want nothing to do with their belief system)?

How different is catholicism from christianity?

Catholics are Christians. The only people who say that are not are rabid fundamentalists like Chick&Co.

have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2005-09-24 06:41pm

The prodestant fundies want to exclude everyone from christianity that do not share their asinine doctrines. Catholics are the largest Christian denomination. The fundies are, as ever, full of shit.

Lord Sabre Ace · Post by **Lord Sabre Ace** » 2005-09-24 06:42pm

Catholics are Christians.

Some Christians split from the Roman Catholic Church in the Protestant Reformation.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2005-09-24 06:50pm

Lord Sabre Ace wrote:Catholics are Christians.

Some Christians split from the Roman Catholic Church in the Protestant Reformation.

Before, too.

Although the RCC can claim to be the direct descendant of the Western Catholic Church, and trace their origin to St. Peter, and thus claim to be the "original" Christians, their claims, are IMO, bullshit. James, not Peter was the first "Pope" at the Council of Jerusalem, so they have as much claim to being "true" and "original" Chirstians as any of the Orthodox Churches.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Lord Sabre Ace · Post by **Lord Sabre Ace** » 2005-09-24 06:51pm

If I remember my history correctly from last year, there was also the earlier schism that split the Byzantine Empire from the Roman Empire.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2005-09-24 06:54pm

Lord Sabre Ace wrote:If I remember my history correctly from last year, there was also the earlier schism that split the Byzantine Empire from the Roman Empire.

Not the "Byzantine" Empire (god, I hate that name, they're the Eastern Roman Empire, for fuck's sakes!) from the Roman Empire, but the Eastern Orthodox Church from Roman Catholicism (that is, the Church was split into 2 factions, one called Eastern Orthodoxy, the official Church of the Roman Empire, and the other being Roman Catholicism, based in Rome and headed by the Pope, and claiming to be descendants of St. Peter and thus the "true" Chrisitans) The Oriental Orthodox Churches broke away even earlier, for unrelated reasons.

Yes, I know this is all confusing.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

EDIT: More info added.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-09-24 06:55pm

The primary difference between Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodoxism (the main schools of Christianity, though Orthodox churches are declining) is inherently theological. They all believe in the Christian God, the Trinity (some more or less than others), Jesus as savior, and that's pretty much it. Everything else is the subject of heated debate-- the Bible's position as Scripture, saints, Mary, Communion, what have you...

Lord Sabre Ace · Post by **Lord Sabre Ace** » 2005-09-24 06:57pm

defanatic wrote: How different is catholicism from christianity?

Catholicism does have some differences from Protestantism.

Catholics have additional Books in the Bible that are not in Protestant Bibles.

As far as I know, Catholics believe you have to live a good life to go to Heaven. Protestants believe you just have to accepet Jasus as you savior.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-09-24 07:06pm

Lord Sabre Ace wrote:If I remember my history correctly from last year, there was also the earlier schism that split the Byzantine Empire from the Roman Empire.

That was over political differences though. IIRC, the Greek Orthodoz Church wanted the Roman/Byzantine Emperor to be declared as not only head of state but head of the Church as well as declare the Patriarch of Constatinople to be the spiritual head of the chnurch. There was also some issues regarding about which language should be used for Mass. Eastern Rite churches favored Greek, Western Churches wanted Latin to be the vernacular of Church Services. It was these political differences, that and the whole issue of Icons and the way the cross is formed, that forced the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Pope in Rome to excominicate each other leading to the First schism in 1054 AD.

Though by the 1950's the old wounds between the Catholic Church and the Greek Churches have since healed. As part of the first decrees of Vatican II, the Greek Orthodox Church was given full Comunion with Rome. This means that if I can't go my local Catholic Church for whatever reason, I can opt instead to go to a Greek Orthdox Church and listen to and participate in thier services and I Can still be incommunion with Rome.

As for this whole notion of Catholics aren't Christians. It's crap that Protestant Fundy denominations spew to justify thier schism from Rome and to get converts. As a devout Catholic, I tend to make a comparison between these anti-Catholic statements with really horrible rumours like the Anti-semitic Protocols of Zion of the last Century.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-09-24 07:10pm

Elheru Aran wrote:The primary difference between Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodoxism (the main schools of Christianity, though Orthodox churches are declining) is inherently theological. They all believe in the Christian God, the Trinity (some more or less than others), Jesus as savior, and that's pretty much it. Everything else is the subject of heated debate-- the Bible's position as Scripture, saints, Mary, Communion, what have you...

As I said earlier, the differences between Orthodox and Catholicsim are nothing more than political ones. These differences have been patched up since Vatican II which agreed that Orthdox Churches and Roman ones would be in full communion with each other. John Paull II during his time as Pope actively tried to bring about an end to the Schism between the Orthodox and Roman Churches by laying the groundwork for a united Greek/Roman church.

defanatic · Post by **defanatic** » 2005-09-24 07:27pm

So when someone (Kathryn *cough*) says that "Hitler was a catholic not a christian", what are they really saying?

Post by **fgalkin** » 2005-09-24 07:29pm

defanatic wrote:So when someone (Kathryn *cough*) says that "Hitler was a catholic not a christian", what are they really saying?

That Catholics are not true Christians, and that "true" Christians are opposed to genocide, but Catholics have nothing against it.

To which you should respond by asking to provide evidence that Catholics are not Christians. And no, Chick tracts don't work as evidence.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Lord Sabre Ace · Post by **Lord Sabre Ace** » 2005-09-24 07:30pm

They're saying that they're stupid and don't understand Christian history or theology.

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2005-09-24 07:41pm

defanatic wrote:So when someone (Kathryn *cough*) says that "Hitler was a catholic not a christian", what are they really saying?

FREDDY THE FUNDIE SEZ: "We have defined out of 'christian' status those sects that don't believe in our stupidity. Therefore, all good christians believe in Biblical inerracy, and do not believe in atheist EEEEEVILOUTION and GAY RIGHTS and BABY-KILLING and just about any other piece of progressivism you care to name. And they don't get to go to Heaven when the Rapture comes. NYAH NYAH NYAH-NYAH NYAH!"

What a fun crowd.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2005-09-24 09:12pm

fgalkin wrote:
Lord Sabre Ace wrote:Catholics are Christians.

Some Christians split from the Roman Catholic Church in the Protestant Reformation.
Before, too.

Although the RCC can claim to be the direct descendant of the Western Catholic Church, and trace their origin to St. Peter, and thus claim to be the "original" Christians, their claims, are IMO, bullshit. James, not Peter was the first "Pope" at the Council of Jerusalem, so they have as much claim to being "true" and "original" Chirstians as any of the Orthodox Churches.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Ah, but Catholics claim a Biblical basis for the papacy: "You are Peter, the rock, on on this rock I will build my church."

Have a very nice day.

~Surlethe

Post by **Surlethe** » 2005-09-24 09:14pm

Lord Sabre Ace wrote:
defanatic wrote: How different is catholicism from christianity?
As far as I know, Catholics believe you have to live a good life to go to Heaven. Protestants believe you just have to accepet Jesus as you savior.

Slight nitpick: if you have accepted Jesus, you don't go to hell; you get Purgatory. Heaven doesn't require good works, persay -- those just help you get there faster.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2005-09-24 09:26pm

Surlethe wrote:
fgalkin wrote:
Lord Sabre Ace wrote:Catholics are Christians.

Some Christians split from the Roman Catholic Church in the Protestant Reformation.
Before, too.

Although the RCC can claim to be the direct descendant of the Western Catholic Church, and trace their origin to St. Peter, and thus claim to be the "original" Christians, their claims, are IMO, bullshit. James, not Peter was the first "Pope" at the Council of Jerusalem, so they have as much claim to being "true" and "original" Chirstians as any of the Orthodox Churches.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
Ah, but Catholics claim a Biblical basis for the papacy: "You are Peter, the rock, on on this rock I will build my church."

Have a very nice day.
~Surlethe

All that says is that Peter will be instrumantal in the creation of the Church (which he was). Acts 15 says that James was the one in charge of the First Church Council in Jerusalem. Which shows that Peter was not the top man at the time of his life, nor should his successor the Pope be more important than any of the other Patriarchs

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2005-09-24 09:32pm

Catholics are Christians. The only people who say that are not are rabid fundamentalists like Chick&Co.

He's exactly right. I took western religions in college. Think of Christianity as a coin; on one side are the Catholics and on the other are the protestants.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2005-09-24 09:47pm

fgalkin wrote:All that says is that Peter will be instrumantal in the creation of the Church (which he was). Acts 15 says that James was the one in charge of the First Church Council in Jerusalem. Which shows that Peter was not the top man at the time of his life, nor should his successor the Pope be more important than any of the other Patriarchs

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I think I'll concede the point for the night. I'm not well-versed enough in theology to keep up.

Have an excellent evening.
-Surlethe

Post by **fgalkin** » 2005-09-24 09:49pm

Superman wrote:
Catholics are Christians. The only people who say that are not are rabid fundamentalists like Chick&Co.
He's exactly right. I took western religions in college. Think of Christianity as a coin; on one side are the Catholics and on the other are the protestants.

And where do everyone else fit in?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Post by **Surlethe** » 2005-09-24 09:50pm

fgalkin wrote:
Superman wrote:
Catholics are Christians. The only people who say that are not are rabid fundamentalists like Chick&Co.
He's exactly right. I took western religions in college. Think of Christianity as a coin; on one side are the Catholics and on the other are the protestants.
And where do everyone else fit in?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

The edges, silly!

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2005-09-25 12:09am

Some hardcore protestants also point to the Catholic practice of saintly veneration as proof of idolatry and conclude they are really crypto polytheists.

The edges, silly!

I take it this is a multidimensional, fractal coin then?

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2005-09-25 12:17am

tharkûn wrote:Some hardcore protestants also point to the Catholic practice of saintly veneration as proof of idolatry and conclude they are really crypto polytheists.

The edges, silly!
I take it this is a multidimensional, fractal coin then?

Yeah, just think of the coin as having lots of grooves.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-09-25 12:18am

tharkûn wrote:Some hardcore protestants also point to the Catholic practice of saintly veneration as proof of idolatry and conclude they are really crypto polytheists.

The edges, silly!
I take it this is a multidimensional, fractal coin then?

Which is absurd because the Core of the Church teachings was/is/will be the Nicene Creed which defines the theoligical beliefs of most Christian churches.

Nicene Creed wrote: We believe in one God, the Father,
the Almighty, maker of heaven and
earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally
begotten of the Father, God from
God, light from light, true God from
true God, begotten, not made, one in
Being with the Father.
For us and for our salvation he came
down from heaven, by the power of
the Holy Spirit he was born of the
Virgin Mary and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under
Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died and
was buried.
On the third day he rose again in
fulfillment of the Scriptures; he
ascended into heaven and is seated at
the right hand of the Father. He will
come again in glory to judge the
living and the dead, and his kingdom
will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the
Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds
from the Father and the Son.
Who with the Father and the Son is
worshiped and glorified.
Who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and
apostolic Church. We acknowledge one
baptism for the forgiveness of
sins. We look for the resurrection of
the dead, and the life of the world to
come. Amen.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

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