Natural Disasters and God.

[Max]

On another board, I'm discussing God. The topic has shifted slightly to natural disasters and god being able to prevent them or not. It started with this:

Well, I believe in God and I believe that science is an explanation of how he does things. I also don't feel that God causes bad things to happen. He gave you free agency to do what you want. So when something like 9/11 happens and people blame it on God I just want to smack them. As for natural disasters, I believe that he can prevent them, but let's look at a recent one hurricane Katrina. I feel he didn't prevent that because of how wicked a lot of the people there are. Had they been living a descent life then perhaps he would have prevented that.

To which I replied:

What about all the other natural disasters that hit areas where there aren't these 'wicked people'? How can you tell which natural disasters are because of people being wicked, and which aren't? Clearly there were people affected/killed by Katrina that didn't fall in this category. Or does God enjoy collatoral damage, lol.

He then responded to me with:

I don't believe that he intentionally causes natural disasters. I was just saying that he can prevent them. Just think of how many occur that don't affect anyone. Also, the things that cause these natural disasters are the same things that allow life to exsist on this planet.

Ironic, isn't it?

I guess my question is, what other natural disasters have happend that God could have prevented? Preferably something that's happened to a good god fearing town or civilization. I don't even know how to go about arguing this, because there's no proof that god has ever prevented a natural disaster. Also, that last part about live existing and the irony...ugh... that part just annoys me.

[Mr Bean]

By definition if he can prevent it, even though he's not causing them. He's at fault every time one of those storms strikes the non-wicked.

Much like if you know CPR and see someone chocking to death next to you. To watch that person choke to death. Makes you responsible as you had the skills to prevent it but did nothing.

[EmperorSolo51]

I guess my question is, what other natural disasters have happend that God could have prevented? Preferably something that's happened to a good god fearing town or civilization. I don't even know how to go about arguing this, because there's no proof that god has ever prevented a natural disaster. Also, that last part about live existing and the irony...ugh... that part just annoys me.

First off, I don't know why anybody would want to debate a fundie for any reason. They clearly lack the ability to have open and honest debate on scripture like Catholics, Moderate protestants and Jews do on ther intent and meaning. All they shout is "Sola Scriptura" at any attempt say that the Bible should be taken as something other than 100% Literal.

As for the question of wether or not God does prevent disaters. (aka the suffering Questions) I refuse to answer the question on the grounds it can't be proven one or the other. Instead, I see a third way. I believe that it's not so much about God when it comes to a disaster, it comes to down to us. I believe it's about overcoming the pain and suffering that will make us stronger and the understanding the need of our fellow man when he is down on his luck. It's about knowing that there is something that you can do help and doing it that will lead you to the path Christ.

[Magnetic]

I know that my denomination lost about 30 churches in that area. The French Quarter, on the other hand, didn't seem to receive a lot of unrecoverable damage.

[Max]

By definition if he can prevent it, even though he's not causing them. He's at fault every time one of those storms strikes the non-wicked.

Much like if you know CPR and see someone chocking to death next to you. To watch that person choke to death. Makes you responsible as you had the skills to prevent it but did nothing.

So you're saying that God should make sure that nothing bad happens to anyone? I'm pretty sure that will be his next question when he responds...to back me into a corner.

[Solauren]

Yes, if god is all powerful and all caring etc, then, be definition, he should be making sure bad things don't happen to people.

Failure to do so shows he is either not all powerful, or is a complete asshole that may get his jollies from watching people suffer.

[lance]

Didn't lightning strike churches like they were lightning rods back in the day

[Mr Bean]

By definition if he can prevent it, even though he's not causing them. He's at fault every time one of those storms strikes the non-wicked.

Much like if you know CPR and see someone chocking to death next to you. To watch that person choke to death. Makes you responsible as you had the skills to prevent it but did nothing.

So you're saying that God should make sure that nothing bad happens to anyone? I'm pretty sure that will be his next question when he responds...to back me into a corner.

If God is indeed all powerful then all suffering is his fault as he can stop it. Being that he CAN do something about it, he must wish that we do suffer.

Another example, A police offer watches two thugs back a man aginst a wall and beat the crap out of the poor fellow. When they finish he pulls his gun and drops both of them right there. Its nice he smited the wicked there, but he could have stoped that beating and indeed prevented it from happing.
(The above is in response to the But God tortures them in hell for ever and ever and similar aurgments.)

[CaptJodan]

As for the question of wether or not God does prevent disaters. (aka the suffering Questions) I refuse to answer the question on the grounds it can't be proven one or the other. Instead, I see a third way. I believe that it's not so much about God when it comes to a disaster, it comes to down to us. I believe it's about overcoming the pain and suffering that will make us stronger and the understanding the need of our fellow man when he is down on his luck. It's about knowing that there is something that you can do help and doing it that will lead you to the path Christ.

This would be something I could cling to except for the overly high death toll of people that, for some, didn't have much choice but to stay. Remember that most of the well to do people got out, while the majority who stayed were poor and had no means to leave. God hates the rich, learned people (or at the very least likes them less), and yet the poor masses that he likes to visit upon is the ones he killed.

He really is a bastard.

[wolveraptor]

It is true that God should never let bad things happen to people. Think about how much crime is simply a result of growing up in a violent, gang-oriented culture. If God could repair all slums, the crime rate would drop to about zero, barring the occasional psychopath, which he too, could fix. I guarantee that when people are living a heavenly life, they tend not to be assholes.

To take this argument further, God should've created man to live in heaven with him to begin with. Some people say that men should be tested before being allowed to live with God, or else it loses its meaning. However, since God creates all situations and all personalities, he in effect creates certain people whom he knows will fail the test. A genetically aggressive young boy who grows up in the slums of Detroit is probably gonna end up drug-smuggling, or mugging. God could've made that slum a heavenly place to live, and the boy would never have been forced to go down the path of crime.

[EmperorSolo51]

To take this argument further, God should've created man to live in heaven with him to begin with. Some people say that men should be tested before being allowed to live with God, or else it loses its meaning. However, since God creates all situations and all personalities, he in effect creates certain people whom he knows will fail the test. A genetically aggressive young boy who grows up in the slums of Detroit is probably gonna end up drug-smuggling, or mugging. God could've made that slum a heavenly place to live, and the boy would never have been forced to go down the path of crime.

Then I could come and counter with the argument that we as Humans have Free will. If God had made us all nice and happy all the time would make us look like nothing more than animals to a Zoo keeper. That we have Free will means that God has supplied us witha soul and a Life, but, it is we who should be the ones who take charge of soul and life. We should be the ones to who bear the responsibilities and punishments for our actions. It's not God's fault that people are like this. The only fault I find is at our feet.

[EmperorSolo51]

This would be something I could cling to except for the overly high death toll of people that, for some, didn't have much choice but to stay. Remember that most of the well to do people got out, while the majority who stayed were poor and had no means to leave. God hates the rich, learned people (or at the very least likes them less), and yet the poor masses that he likes to visit upon is the ones he killed.

He really is a bastard.

Again, I don't see it that way. I see in a different light. I see it as this is a storm caused by Earth's weather system that has affected hundreds of Thousands of People. Now, We should do the morally correct thing and give as much as we are physically able to the poor and needy, and homeless. Let's worktogether to overcome this tragedy and give solace to our fellow man who is down on his luck as stated in the Gospels.

[Darth Wong]

According to the Bible, we don't have free will. The fact that God can use people (such as the Babylonians) to punish the Israelites for their sins is proof of that. Either he's lying about being able to control the Babylonians or they are puppets on a string, as are we all.

[EmperorSolo51]

According to the Bible, we don't have free will. The fact that God can use people (such as the Babylonians) to punish the Israelites for their sins is proof of that. Either he's lying about being able to control the Babylonians or they are puppets on a string, as are we all.

Once again, May I reiterate the point that as a catholic, I don't support the Protestant notion of Sola Scriptura (The Bible Alone)

[EmperorSolo51]

Ghetto Edit: Like I said I believe that God has given us the ability to choose our destiny. No sane or loving God would force his Will upon us. It is up to the individual to believe in him out of his or her Spiritual Love.

[Darth Wong]

According to the Bible, we don't have free will. The fact that God can use people (such as the Babylonians) to punish the Israelites for their sins is proof of that. Either he's lying about being able to control the Babylonians or they are puppets on a string, as are we all.

Once again, May I reiterate the point that as a catholic, I don't support the Protestant notion of Sola Scriptura (The Bible Alone)

We're not talking about very specific, narrow interpretations of particular passages, a la fundie behaviour. You have to discard huge portions of the Bible (including numerous doctrinally critical portions, such as the implication that Jesus' crucifixion was planned) in order to remove any incidence of God interfering with human "free" will.

[Surlethe]

This would be something I could cling to except for the overly high death toll of people that, for some, didn't have much choice but to stay. Remember that most of the well to do people got out, while the majority who stayed were poor and had no means to leave. God hates the rich, learned people (or at the very least likes them less), and yet the poor masses that he likes to visit upon is the ones he killed.

He really is a bastard.

Again, I don't see it that way. I see in a different light. I see it as this is a storm caused by Earth's weather system that has affected hundreds of Thousands of People. Now, We should do the morally correct thing and give as much as we are physically able to the poor and needy, and homeless. Let's worktogether to overcome this tragedy and give solace to our fellow man who is down on his luck as stated in the Gospels.

And yet, God could have stopped the storm -- doing so does not interfere with anybody's free will -- and he didn't. As pointed out before, that leaves two options:

• 1. God is a bastard
  
  or
  
  2. God can't interfere with nature

So, feel free to take your pick. Which is it?

[EmperorSolo51]

We're not talking about very specific, narrow interpretations of particular passages, a la fundie behaviour. You have to discard huge portions of the Bible (including numerous doctrinally critical portions, such as the implication that Jesus' crucifixion was planned) in order to remove any incidence of God interfering with human "free" will.

I agree with the statement that yes, parts of the bible and Church Doctrine and Lore do lay out a grand scheme that is God's plan. Things like the the crucufixion of Christ and Redemption of man, I believe were supposed to happen. I also believe that there is room for Human nature and Free will in God's Grand Scheme as a consequence. After all, we have a choice wether or not to listen to the gospels and to jesus, just as much we have a choice not to be a complete and total idiot.

[Darth Wong]

We're not talking about very specific, narrow interpretations of particular passages, a la fundie behaviour. You have to discard huge portions of the Bible (including numerous doctrinally critical portions, such as the implication that Jesus' crucifixion was planned) in order to remove any incidence of God interfering with human "free" will.

I agree with the statement that yes, parts of the bible and Church Doctrine and Lore do lay out a grand scheme that is God's plan. Things like the the crucufixion of Christ and Redemption of man, I believe were supposed to happen. I also believe that there is room for Human nature and Free will in God's Grand Scheme as a consequence. After all, we have a choice wether or not to listen to the gospels and to jesus, just as much we have a choice not to be a complete and total idiot.

So when A contradicts B, you simply retort that you believe A and B are both true at the same time? That's just sheer nonsense. If human history is following a plan, then we humans do not have free will.

[EmperorSolo51]

And yet, God could have stopped the storm -- doing so does not interfere with anybody's free will -- and he didn't. As pointed out before, that leaves two options:

• 1. God is a bastard
  
  or
  
  2. God can't interfere with nature

So, feel free to take your pick. Which is it?

As I said, I can't prove or disprove that God can,can't. doesn't. does, or won't stop the storms. I refuse to make that choice as there is no evidence one way or the other. I think what we are doing is missing the whole point, which is to help our fellow man when he is down on his luck and get him back on his feet because we want too.

[DrkHelmet]

So when A contradicts B, you simply retort that you believe A and B are both true at the same time? That's just sheer nonsense. If human history is following a plan, then we humans do not have free will.

I'm sorry Wong, but I must interject. That's the same as saying that in the event of a coup, no one in the country has free will, and are all the victim of the perpetrator's plan. Sure, history has been maneuvered, and events created to sway and tame the people, but these people did not all lose their free will.

The country's inhabitants may be swept along with the propoganda and fervor of the event, but they did not lose their free will. The existence of a plan by a person (or being) more powerful than them does not destroy their free will.

That's the way I see it, anyway.

[Darth Wong]

So when A contradicts B, you simply retort that you believe A and B are both true at the same time? That's just sheer nonsense. If human history is following a plan, then we humans do not have free will.

I'm sorry Wong, but I must interject. That's the same as saying that in the event of a coup, no one in the country has free will, and are all the victim of the perpetrator's plan. Sure, history has been maneuvered, and events created to sway and tame the people, but these people did not all lose their free will.

Thanks for demonstrating your abject stupidity. One event does not necessarily contradict free will, but the entire history of the world and all of its nations following a plan most certainly does. The sheer number of variables that must fall into place is staggering.

Not to mention the fact that in your hypothetical example of a coup, there were most certainly many individuals who were coerced to go along with it rather than choosing of their own free will.

The country's inhabitants may be swept along with the propoganda and fervor of the event, but they did not lose their free will. The existence of a plan by a person (or being) more powerful than them does not destroy their free will.

And how is God manipulating people? Unlike a dictator, he has no direct material influence over this world. I can make you do something by holding a gun to your head, but how does God make people do anything unless we do not have free will from him?

[EmperorSolo51]

So when A contradicts B, you simply retort that you believe A and B are both true at the same time? That's just sheer nonsense. If human history is following a plan, then we humans do not have free will.

You are correct. I will grant you that. I'll concede the point that yes it is illogical, to support the idea of predestination, now that I think about it.

[Surlethe]

And yet, God could have stopped the storm -- doing so does not interfere with anybody's free will -- and he didn't. As pointed out before, that leaves two options:

• 1. God is a bastard
  
  or
  
  2. God can't interfere with nature

So, feel free to take your pick. Which is it?

As I said, I can't prove or disprove that God can,can't. doesn't. does, or won't stop the storms. I refuse to make that choice as there is no evidence one way or the other.

In other words, you don't want to make a decision based on the evidence. In doing so, you're implicitly choosing option 2.

I think what we are doing is missing the whole point, which is to help our fellow man when he is down on his luck and get him back on his feet because we want too.

Leaving aside the fact this 'third choice' is completely irrelevant to the question, this is just another way of saying "God is testing us".

[DrkHelmet]

Thanks for demonstrating your abject stupidity. One event does not necessarily contradict free will, but the entire history of the world and all of its nations following a plan most certainly does. The sheer number of variables that must fall into place is staggering.

It would be a intensely huge number of variables, no doubt. However, I don't think anyone here has yet claimed that every country and every major polititian was put in his place by God, and hence that every element in history was a part of God's "plan." At least, not yet has this been claimed. (We will see about this as this thread goes on.)

It could feasibly be claimed that the other parts were simply insignificant acts resulting of free will.

Not to mention the fact that in your hypothetical example of a coup, there were most certainly many individuals who were coerced to go along with it rather than choosing of their own free will.

The person still has free will, coerced or not. Their free will wasn't nullfied, simply temporarily repressed.

And how is God manipulating people? Unlike a dictator, he has no direct material influence over this world. I can make you do something by holding a gun to your head, but how does God make people do anything unless we do not have free will from him?

Now that is an interesting question. I have no answer for that. Could we go back to temporary supression of free will? Of course, that gives all kinds of new and interesting ethics dilemas for Fundies.