Relativism and straw men.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2002-12-09 12:39pm

http://www.id.ucsb.edu/fscf/library/RUS ... ivism.html

Well, what do you think.

I think it must have taken a lot of work, even from a professor, to fit that may straw men in to a single article.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-09 12:42pm

He is technically correct in that 100% moral relativism is worthless. But honestly, no one seriously espouses that except for his ilk, ie- ivory tower philosophers. You don't see people out on the street saying that we can't pass judgement on child molesters or baby killers.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2002-12-09 12:59pm

Gah...how he can prove that good and evil rely on each other to exist? Do we need child molesters to really exist to know that treating children with respect is good?

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2002-12-09 01:18pm

I've always though that moral relativism basically states that moral standards are grounded only in social custom and that there are no universal laws that state what is right and what is wrong.
By that definition I am a moral relativist.

However what truly shocked me is the, hmm...how should I say this, poor quality of the article. He resorts to straw men on numerous occasions and he contradicts him self (ie. by saying that humans aren't good by nature and then by saying that moral imperatives are inherent in the human mind) and then there are the cases of simply flawed reasoning.
I really would have expected something a little better from a professor.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2002-12-09 02:20pm

Sir Sirius wrote:I really would have expected something a little better from a professor.

A Ph.D doesn't make one smarter or more rational. Ability to simply hunker down and work hard makes a lot more difference in getting through a graduate program than pure brainpower.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2002-12-09 03:09pm

For a second there I thought this was gonna be an article on the Theory of Relativity that I wouldn't be able to understand. Thank goodness is just turned out to be a guy blabbing about poorly thought-out philosophy, eh?

Oh, and *poke*.

XPViking · Post by **XPViking** » 2002-12-09 08:19pm

You don't see people out on the street saying that we can't pass judgement on child molesters or baby killers. - Darth Wong

With all due respect, we do have people saying that. Have you so quickly forgotten the infamous patkelly in the HoS?

XPViking

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2002-12-09 08:23pm

XPViking wrote:
You don't see people out on the street saying that we can't pass judgement on child molesters or baby killers. - Darth Wong
With all due respect, we do have people saying that. Have you so quickly forgotten the infamous patkelly in the HoS?

XPViking

Except that those people represent an overwhelming minority, and certainly not common opinion.

XPViking · Post by **XPViking** » 2002-12-09 08:55pm

Except that those people represent an overwhelming minority, and certainly not common opinion. - Uranium235

Fair enough, and I realized that before. I think that it should be pointed out that "ivory tower" sophistry is not confined to those in the ivory tower. I guess I interpreted the remark as "on the street" meaning "those who aren't in the ivory tower" not "common opinion".

XPViking

edit: I should add that many expats that I've encountered seem to hold the moral relativistic stance more than other groups.

XPViking · Post by **XPViking** » 2002-12-10 03:23am

Here's a question, and I fully realize that it's quite possibly stupid:

When we say that there are universal moral precepts that various cultures throughout the ages recognize, are we not committing the "appeal to popularity" fallacy?

XPViking

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2002-12-10 03:33am

XPViking wrote:Here's a question, and I fully realize that it's quite possibly stupid:

When we say that there are universal moral precepts that various cultures throughout the ages recognize, are we not committing the "appeal to popularity" fallacy?

XPViking

Not necessarily. If we can find that they are for some reason hardcoded into the brain (since those who preserve the society would be more suitable mates, get laid, and pass on any possible gene for "moral behavior"), then it's not an appeal to popularity. It all depends on what we find.

Spoonist · Post by **Spoonist** » 2002-12-10 06:18am

->Sir Sirius

Poke n00b.
&Welcome to the boards...

(Did I do that right, it's my first?)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-10 09:36am

XPViking wrote:Here's a question, and I fully realize that it's quite possibly stupid:

When we say that there are universal moral precepts that various cultures throughout the ages recognize, are we not committing the "appeal to popularity" fallacy?

XPViking

No. By saying that there are universal human moral precepts, we are saying that everybody believes something. It is not a fallacy to use popularity in order to support a conclusion which is directly related to popularity. For example, in an argument over the respective popularities of Star Wars and Star Trek, the appeal to popularity is obviously not a fallacy.

XPViking · Post by **XPViking** » 2002-12-10 10:14am

No. By saying that there are universal human moral precepts, we are saying that everybody believes something. It is not a fallacy to use popularity in order to support a conclusion which is directly related to popularity. For example, in an argument over the respective popularities of Star Wars and Star Trek, the appeal to popularity is obviously not a fallacy. - Darth Wong

Okay. So when we say that everyone believes in something, we can then find similarities between the various cultures, etc... and rightfully conclude that these similarities can rightfully be termed "universal values". Correct?

Forgive me for asking such simple questions but perhaps I should share with you why I am interested in this topic. More often than not, I meet various foreigners here in Korea who say "When in Rome...", "If you don't like it, leave..." or arguments along that line. While I believe it's important to try to understand the culture of where a person is at, I don't feel that I should sacrifice my core beliefs nor should stupid behaviour be excused on the premise of "It's just culture."

XPViking