HIV=AIDS?

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The_Nice_Guy
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HIV=AIDS?

Post by The_Nice_Guy »

I'm new here, and while I'm almost afraid to raise this prickly issue(and get shouted out by a mass of believers!), I'm just a sucker for punishment.:p

Anyway, here goes nothing. I do not believe that HIV causes AIDS, or even that HIV exists in the first place.

Fact: HIV has never been isolated using the accepted methodology for retroviruses. No SEM picture of a homogenous HIV sample has ever been taken. You know, the round thingy with protruding knobs that we see in the media?

Fact: An AIDS epidemic does not exist in North America. The number and rate of identified HIV positive people remain fairly constant. There is no drastic increase in the numbers of people found each year to be HIV positive. Ditto for heterosexual victims of AIDS.

Fact: HIV does not fulfill Koch's Postulates. Or rather, it does not fulfill all of them, only some of them.

Fact: WHO criteria for identifying AIDS in Africa does not rely on a HIV test nor identification of immune deficiency(Bangui definition)

Fact: HIV tests(Western Blot, ELIZA) are highly inaccurate. Repeated HIV tests(about six, IIRC) are required for conformation of HIV presence.

Fact: Only one HIV test is required in South Africa.

Fact: AZT kills.

Now, with those facts(the facts may also be wrong), it can be argued that the HIV=AIDS theory is extremely flimsy, especially considering that Koch's Postulates have not been fulfilled(even considering that HIV cannot be grown in vitro, if it can be grown at all!). Heck, nobody has even isolated HIV successfully, and they've already sentenced it of guilt and putting it to death when it's not even in court!

Now, I'm not saying that AIDS, as a syndrome, as a disease, does not exist. It certainly does, and it is characterized as a state where a certain type of white blood cells fall below a certain level, thus leading to opportunistic diseases attacking the victim and thus resulting in death(all of the time).

What I am disputing is the theory that HIV causes AIDS. That AIDS is caused by a viral agent when it might be a clinical disease, or some other agent, or even HIV as a cofactor with something else(no idea what though). For the time being, anybody with HIV is classified as having AIDS, even if their immune systems are not shot away yet(and might never be).

For example, poppers with high nitrite contents might have caused AIDS in the original victim group of homosexuals, who were known to take these drugs in high dosages for uh... their specific needs. Certainly, nitrites are known to destroy enzymes and mutate DNA. Could they have caused AIDS? Maybe. But it can also be argued why nitrites attacked only those specific white blood cells and not the other parts/systems of the body.

Another possible cause could be repeated assaults on the victim by various infectious diseases which batter the immune system into submission, or even the overuse of antibiotics which reduced the ability of the immune system to defend itself.

There was a debate on this at spacebattles.com, where I, Admiral Valdemar, and a few others discussed the issue at length. Here it is.
http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... light=AIDS

Discuss!

One more thing guys. If you look at the support structure of the HIV=AIDS hypothesis, there are some disturbing similarities to religions and faith-based beliefs. Yes, I'm depraved enough to use the atheism of this board to bolster my argument. :twisted:

The Nice Guy
PS. Admiral Valdemar, have you gotten to your professors about the proof of existence of HIV, and the theory in general? That is really a neccessary first step, since even the epidemiological data(often taken to be sufficient for identifying a viral cause) doesn't support the theory at all in some interpretations. You did say you'll get back to me, didn't you? :wink:
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Post by NecronLord »

I challenge you to inject yourself with HIV infected blood.

And no virus can be grown invitro... they are not alive, they are assembled, they remain the same size from their assembley to their dis-assembley (yes I know that sounded like data from insurrection...)
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Post by Darth Wong »

Please present a theory which more accurately explains the transmission mechanism of AIDS, keeping in mind that environmental factors alone have never been shown to cause AIDS without some form of sexual transmission from a disease carrier.

Are you saying it's a different virus? Then name the virus. Are you saying it's not a virus at all? Then why does it spread like one?
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Post by Nova Andromeda »

--First, I have seen SEM pictures of HIV budding from infected cells. Second, they have crystallized and solved the structure of a number of HIV proteins. I do, however, recall that on of my immunology teacher at U.C. Berkeley also didn't believe HIV caused AIDS (or at least said the evidence was poor). IIRC, he pointed to lot of stuff that suggested that the people with AIDS also had a history of various other problems including strong drug abuse (which he said could cause the destruction of one's imune system). He also said that there weren't any papers showing exactly how HIV caused AIDS and only some that showed a correlation (mind you this was 4 yrs. ago). At any rate, I have to say that I haven't yet run into anything that directly shows that HIV causes AIDS, but I haven't ever looked very hard.
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

NecronLord wrote:I challenge you to inject yourself with HIV infected blood.
I support that challenge.

And while at it, try to explain to the entire medical community and biologists how wrong they are and how grievous is their mistake.
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Post by Nova Andromeda »

NecronLord wrote:I challenge you to inject yourself with HIV infected blood.
--It is a good thing you and Colonel Olrik aren't in charge of science. It would grind to halt with this type of mentality. Do you even realize how idiotic that statement is? The price of doing poor science is not to taken seriously, not a slow painful death if you are wrong!!!
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Nova Andromeda wrote:
NecronLord wrote:I challenge you to inject yourself with HIV infected blood.
--It is a good thing you and Colonel Olrik aren't in charge of science. It would grind to halt with this type of mentality. Do you even realize how idiotic that statement is? The price of doing poor science is not to taken seriously, not a slow painful death if you are wrong!!!
I lack knowledge in the biology field, so I can only believe in the overwhelming opinion of the medical doctors and scientists that it has been proven the connection between AIDS and HIV, without margin for doubts. If a jackass politician or someone alike says otherwise, then let them prove it. It's like those idiots who believe Man has never set foot on the Moon.

Science is one thing, ignorant pseudoscience is another, and my tolerance for the second is minimal.
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Post by Darth Wong »

And I repeat my point: if the HIV naysayers say it is spread by a non-HIV micro-organism of some sort, then I challenge them to identify it. If they say it is caused by environmental factors, then I challenge them to explain why it is transmitted like a virus.

This is no different from "intelligent design", or Darkstar's MCR. It seeks to attack an existing theory but makes no attempt to provide a workable substitute, never mind an improved theory.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Of course it's not a virus. It's God punishing the homos. Didn't you all know that?
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Post by Darth Servo »

Wicked Pilot wrote:Of course it's not a virus. It's God punishing the homos. Didn't you all know that?
Don't forget the children who got it from an infected mother who get a free ticket to heaven. And of course the JWs love to point out all the people who died from getting an HIV infected blood transfusion. :x
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Post by TrailerParkJawa »

I think this conterversy comes from some professer in UC Berkeley. Probably Nova's professor. From what I have heard it does not have any acceptance outside of that professor and some people in South Africa.
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Post by Joe »

No, it's got a lot more support than you've probably been told, including from a few Nobel prize winners. You can get more information at

http://www.virusmyth.net

The site is interesting, but I don't know enough about microbiology to form an opinion.
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Post by neoolong »

TrailerParkJawa wrote:I think this conterversy comes from some professer in UC Berkeley. Probably Nova's professor. From what I have heard it does not have any acceptance outside of that professor and some people in South Africa.
The Africans that think that screwing a virgin will cure them from AIDS?
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Post by The_Nice_Guy »

Some doctor in Spain did try to infect himself with HIV positive blood. He was discredited by the media. I can try the same, but certainly I won't know what else comes along in that package! Like toxins, other viruses etc. And if I want to be infected, please infect me with pure HIV from a real AIDS patient, eh? But sorry, HIV hasn't been isolated into a pure form yet, so sorry if the challenge is not viable! Hey, it's not my fault that scientists haven't been able to isolate HIV yet!

As for sexual transmission, it was a pure red herring thrown out by homosexual activists to deflect attention away from the fact practically ALL of the initial cases of AIDS were inflcted on homosexuals, and not heteros. I'm not saying I blame them for it, but some of them have since realized that it was a mistake.

Let's see what are the characteristics of a viral or bacteria disease, eh? This was taken from an article by Peter Duesberg, who incidentally was exocommunicated(a term used in religion) by bulk of the entire scientific community for challenging the HIV=AIDS hypothesis.

All of these viral and microbial epidemics have the following in common:

(i) They rise exponentially and then decline within weeks or months as originally described by William Farr in the early 19th century (Bregman & Langmuir, 1990). The rise reflects the exponential spread of contagion and the fall reflects the resulting natural vaccination or immunity of survivors.

(ii) The epidemics spread randomly ("heterosexually" in the words of AIDS researchers) in the population.

(iii) The resulting infectious diseases are highly specific reflecting the limited genetic information of the causative microbe. As a consequence the viral diseases are typically more specific than those caused by the more complex bacteria or fungi. It is for this reason that the viruses and microbes are typically named for the specific disease they cause. For example influenza virus is called after the flu, polio virus after the poliomyelitis, and hepatitis virus after the liver disease it causes

(iv) The microbial and particularly the viral epidemics are self-limiting and thus typically seasonal, because they induce anti-microbial and viral immunity and select also for genetically resistant hosts..

By contrast, the following are characteristics of diseases caused by non-contagious, chemical or physical factors:

(i) They follow no specific time course, but one that is determined by the dose and duration of exposure to the toxin.

(ii) They spread according to consumption or exposure to toxic agents, but not exponentially.

(iii) They spread either non-randomly with occupational or lifestyle factors, or randomly with environmental or nutritional factors.

(iv) They range from relatively specific to unspecific depending on the nature of the toxin.

(v) They are limited by discontinuation of intoxication, but not self-limiting because they do not generate immunity.

Likewise, the American and European AIDS epidemics:

(i) rose steadily, not exponentially,

(ii) were completely non-randomly biased 85% in favor of males,

(iii) have followed first the over-use of recreational drugs, and then the extensive use of anti-AIDS-viral drugs (Duesberg & Rasnick, 1998),

(iv) do not manifest in one or even just a few specific diseases typical of microbial epidemics,

(v) do not spread to the general non-drug using population.

So yeah, there is some evidence that it is not being caused by a virus alone, or even that viruses are not involved at all. Of course, it could still be a virus, just that it's not HIV, and then activated by other factors. The thing is, there are alternative theories, but everybody is so fixated on the HIV=AIDS theory that everything else just gets shouted down.

For the initial cases of AIDS in the early 80s, we were talking about drug using homosexuals. So we can narrow it down to perhaps two possible reasons, for simplification's sake.

The first one, is that the disease was spread by a virus circulating around the community through sexual activity. This was the accepted hypothesis.

The second one, was that the extensive and prolonged taking of drugs causes AIDS.

Now, if we want to compare, we can take two other groups. Say... a group of drug takers who abstain from sex of any sort(impossible to find though!), and a group of homosexuals who do not take drugs. Let's be fair, and have a third group similar to the second one, except that they're heterosexuals.

If the virus theory is correct, then the 'clean' homos and heteros will get infected, while the drug taking monks(for lack of a better word), will be unaffected. The opposite occurs for the drug hypothesis.

While it was said that clean homos did not exhibit AIDS in the early days(I don't know how much credence to lend to this), there was also said to be a research study where some scientists exposed several mice(please don't mention animal cruelty!) to nitrite containing inhalents for a study that the government wanted because it wanted to ban nitrite products. Not incidentally, the mice developed immune deficiency. Convincing proof? Perhaps not, but it does suggest something.

There have also been cases where AIDS was reported in HIV negative persons in the presence of extensive drug taking, for either recreational or medical reasons. So almost definitely, even if the present HIV=AIDS theory is accepted, it is also clear that HIV is by no means the only causal agent. I personally think that HIV is a red herring, while drugs are the true cause.

The drug hypothesis can handle the present data pretty well, in fact, as long as we don't use the HIV +ve equals AIDS theory, and the data that results from this assumption. Most, if not all, of the present AIDS sufferers(I will not include those who are only diagnosed with HIV infection, only those with terminal stage AIDS), are on extensive drug therapy of one sort or another. AZT, protease inhibitors, chemicals of one acronym or another, you name it, they have it.

HIV positive people, as long as they live balanced lives with proper diets, stay away from drugs of any sort(even for AIDS), and remain positive, do not seem to be coming down with AIDS. In fact, the CDC kept on revising its estimates for the gestation period of AIDS as more and more HIV positive people started to live longer, which is sometimes attributed to the success of AIDS drugs.

As for transmission, I have to say that it is not even transmitted like a virus, or a sexually transmitted one! If it was, then why is it that STDs rates have been rising, while AIDS has not? AIDS has been unusually selective for a viral epidemic, infecting only a certain risk group(drug users and the like) and not the general population. The problem here is that questionaires for AIDS rarely ask about the person about the use of drugs(and people are generally unwilling to talk anyway).

Never has a virus been so selective in its victims! They have to be drug users, having sex with drug users, or have been injected with blood products. Picky, picky...

So there, I have explored the cause of AIDS without the involvement of a viral agent. Certainly, real research has to be done to confirm the drug=AIDS hypothesis(which has not been done), and less money thrown to the HIV proponents. But I have come up with a viable alternative hypothesis(drugs) that can explain away the facts and statistics just as well. What's more, is that it can be tested in a lab with mice(again!). And then later with chimps(I expect more hoohah from animal rights activists, but they won't complain when we do it with humans! Strange... :roll: ).

Meanwhile...

Nova Andromeda, I think Peter Duesberg was that immunology teacher of yours! He's a true scientist. He had the guts to debunk his own 'virus causes cancer' theory years back, and he had the guts to buck the present HIV establishment. A modern day Galileo? I wouldn't go that far though. Some of his statements on cancer did seem wacky to me. But he deserves a Nobel Prize, at least, for his role in identifying influenza mutation(which is why the damn flu goes around so often), isolation of the first cancer gene(oncogenes), and retroviral research.

Also, Gallo did not publish his paper on the HIV/AIDS theory in a journal to be reviewed by his peers. In fact, several years before the AIDS thing, he had tried to publish a paper that claimed that he had discovered a virus that caused cancer, which was shot down almost immediately. So he wised up, and went straight for the authorities. Then the grand announcement was made, and almost by bureaucratic dictat, HIV=AIDS.

And please don't bring religion into this. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with god punishing anyone(not that I believe there's a god at all). It's just like Falwell or some right wing nut syaing that 9/11 happened because of God. Part of the politically correct "AIDS affects everybody" message was a direct defense to the religious politically incorrect allegation that AIDS was a disease meant to punish homosexuals.

For the children, I think it's the drugs the clinics are forcing them to take that is killing them, not the presence of a mythical virus. In fact, there was a court case several years back when a HIV positive mom fought to have her baby boy protected from drugs when he was diagnosed as HIV positive. Her name was Valerie Emerson, and she did so only after her daughter died as a result of those drugs. They won, and now the kid is growing up fine, when he was on the verge of death with the AIS drugs.

So being HIV positive is hardly a death sentence. The death sentence comes when the doctors force AZT down your throat.

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Post by Joe »

Colonel Olrik wrote:
Nova Andromeda wrote:
NecronLord wrote:I challenge you to inject yourself with HIV infected blood.
--It is a good thing you and Colonel Olrik aren't in charge of science. It would grind to halt with this type of mentality. Do you even realize how idiotic that statement is? The price of doing poor science is not to taken seriously, not a slow painful death if you are wrong!!!
I lack knowledge in the biology field, so I can only believe in the overwhelming opinion of the medical doctors and scientists that it has been proven the connection between AIDS and HIV, without margin for doubts. If a jackass politician or someone alike says otherwise, then let them prove it. It's like those idiots who believe Man has never set foot on the Moon.

Science is one thing, ignorant pseudoscience is another, and my tolerance for the second is minimal.
At one point of history the vast majority of scientists believed that the world was flat. The vast majority of scientists are indeed fallible, although it's usually not the case.

And by the way, disproving a theory is not the same thing as formulating one of your own. For example, Mike Wong can disprove within the SW universe that Force sensitivity is not genetic, but he cannot formulate a theory as to what exactly causes it, since there isn't enough information. Does that make his rebuttal of the genetic Force theory invalid? Absolutely not. Sorry if I'm trolling.
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Post by The_Nice_Guy »

And when us scientists get our faces splattered with mud because we fouled up, everybody else will be all over us.

I dread the day when the truth, if any, breaks about AIDS. Because lives were at stake, and we bungled the whole thing. The dissidents movement will be blamed along with the bulk of the community, and our saying of "I told you so" won't mean a damn to the public.

There was an epidemic called SMON in Japan decades earlier. It was thought to be an infectious disease like AIDS at first, but was later identified as being caused by a drug called clinoquinol. The parallels to the present AIDS/HIV hypothesis are uncanny. The affected sued the hell out of the viral researchers.

So yeah, there would be lawsuits aplenty. Not a pretty sight.

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Post by Justforfun000 »

I do have to add that I personally have serious doubts myself as to the HIV=AIDS theory. It has been awhile since I last looked into the controversy but there was truly a great deal of very serious rebuttals against the convential views that I have never seen truly refuted.

I found it fascinating because I know a few people who are HIV positive and I have always been interested in alternative views on health, so I delved into it. I had no idea what I was in for however. I'm pretty well versed for a layman in medical knowledge, as well as human anatomy, but this issue has been a very contentious subject for many years in the scientific and medical field, and the arguments got so technical that I found it difficult to understand some of the more in depth arguments. The great majority of the dissension is kept out of the public eye though because of the power of the majority opinion. Dissenting views have been very carefully suppressed because they may "endanger" the safe sex practices they have been trying so hard to have people adhere to. This has been actually admitted to by many science publications as well as television productions.

At this point I am truly undecided. It is hard to believe that the majority of people could continue to adhere to the currently accepted view that HIV is definitely responsible if it was clearly not. But on the other hand I have to play devils advocate and say that "hey", if that was the only criteria we looked at then religion would automatically be accepted as true, especially about a hundred years ago. I realize that science is nowhere near in the same ballpark as religion when it comes to "evidence", but we have to remember that especially in terms of medical science, we rely on theories more than known fact. There is just simply too much we don't understand about the human body and the healing process, let alone diseases. So we should keep an especially open mind in relation to medical science.

Also it is very important to remember that one of the greatest influences in our society is money. This is reality. Medicine is certainly not immune to this fact, and we have to remember that pharmaceutical companies have a MASSIVE influence on medical practice and consequently, thought. The ones who are profiting from the AIDS epidemic should never be taken as an unbiased source of information, and from what I recall, a great DEAL of the source information that has not been in ITSELF completely verified has been expounded on and treated almost Biblical in it's origin. This would naturally be a cause of concern as to the premises and conclusion that are derived when working from a vantage point that has not been fully substantiated. I know this is vague, but like I said I have not looked into this issue in some time and I will not make the mistake of making a half-ass quote by memory of some of the examples that would show you what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that the controversies are there, and they truly gave me food for thought. The dissidents I have seen presenting their case are not some fringe scientists expounding ridiculous and almost sophistry like arguments as I have seen for years in arguments concerning Cancer or Heart disease.

Just one example that I can remember is the actual inventor of the PCR test that is supposedly able to test the amount of HIV virus in your system. He has denounced this use of his test saying that it's ridiculous because it's like measuring the amount of bumpers in a used car lot to see how many working cars are there. Obviously this is a very big contrast to an individuals own interest for profit. When I looked into this I was actually stunned to discover that it is known and widely understood (by medical personnel), that the tests are considered to be approximately 1% accurate as to the ratio of "live" virus versus dead or inactive cellular matter. I believe that is the statistic. Oh well. Since I'm getting into this I'll search for a link. Here. http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/chjppcrap.htm

That gets into it in more depth. The interesting thing is that the amount of HIV in people's body is SO minute compared to what is necessary for other viruses to even cause SYMPTOMS. Out of my hat here, but it's relatively close...The viral load test shows around in the single digits up to an approximate maximum of 100,000 viral copies of HIV per ml of blood in people. Do you realize that the common cold needs approximately 24 MILLION of viral cells to even manifest symptoms?

I also remember them continually challenging them to explain exactly HOW hiv kills T4 cells so drastically since there has apparently never been a working mechanism explained or even posited as to how they do so? This really surprises me and I have to admit that I find it hard to believe that this is not the case. I would be interested if anyone has data on this as this does not seems likely considering how crucial this idea would have to be to the AIDS theory.

It is a very interesting debate and I confess to being both interested and unconvinced one way or the other.

Anyone out there who can shed light on this?
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Post by The_Nice_Guy »

Well, one of the methods suggested by HIV researchers was that the HIV virus infects some cells but does not kill them. Then the infected cells would induce cellular death in other white blood cells. They call it apoptosis.

Another theory is that HIV infects only a few T4 cells, but that would induce the T8 cells to go postal on all of the T4 cells, even those unaffected.

The problem with these two theories is that there are many other viruses that actually do use the above two methods, but no AIDS was caused. Furthermore, a lack of real data meant that these two theories were just that, stuck in theorydom.

Then the viral load concept that you mentioned came out, and the above two theories were promptly discarded.

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Post by TrailerParkJawa »

neoolong wrote:
TrailerParkJawa wrote:I think this conterversy comes from some professer in UC Berkeley. Probably Nova's professor. From what I have heard it does not have any acceptance outside of that professor and some people in South Africa.
The Africans that think that screwing a virgin will cure them from AIDS?
Yeah, those guys too. But I was thinking more along the lines of some of the more kooky political types down there. The problem with AIDS and many other health problems in Africa is overcoming superstition and ingnorance.
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Post by TrailerParkJawa »

Likewise, the American and European AIDS epidemics:

(i) rose steadily, not exponentially,

(ii) were completely non-randomly biased 85% in favor of males,

(iii) have followed first the over-use of recreational drugs, and then the extensive use of anti-AIDS-viral drugs (Duesberg & Rasnick, 1998),

(iv) do not manifest in one or even just a few specific diseases typical of microbial epidemics,

(v) do not spread to the general non-drug using population.
(i) -- A steady rise is rates of infection is consistant with a sexually transmitted disease.

(ii) -- AIDs first appeared in the gay community in the US, so showing up in males at first isnt a surprise.

(iii) -- Sharing needles and thus blood is why it [AIDS] transmits among drug users. I cant respond to the AIDs drugs part.

(iv) -- I dont understand this one??

(v) -- AIDS is common in Africa among non-drug users.
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Post by Shrykull »

Don't forget the children who got it from an infected mother who get a free ticket to heaven. And of course the JWs love to point out all the people who died from getting an HIV infected blood transfusion.
I saw a commercial once saying that 90% of babies born with HIV mothers can be free of the disease, I still wouldn't have a baby though.\ if I was female
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Post by The_Nice_Guy »

(v) -- AIDS is common in Africa among non-drug users.
I disagree with this point. Right now, the level of HIV testing in Africa is based a lot on hearsay and estimated figures, not repeated HIV tests that actually confirm that the people there have HIV.

Furthermore, throw out the assumption that HIV=AIDS(it is important not to confuse the two), and suddenly the real number of AIDS sufferers(that is, they have immune deficiency) can become miniscule.

For example, in South Africa, they would test pregnant women with only one HIV test. In addition, it is well documented that pregnancy can cause false positive results. So chances were quite high that those tests were absolutely bunk.

Many other African countries have no HIV testing at all, and a patient is assumed to have AIDS when he fits the Bangui definition.

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Post by The_Nice_Guy »

(i) -- A steady rise is rates of infection is consistant with a sexually transmitted disease.

(ii) -- AIDs first appeared in the gay community in the US, so showing up in males at first isnt a surprise.

(iii) -- Sharing needles and thus blood is why it [AIDS] transmits among drug users. I cant respond to the AIDs drugs part.
Oh wait, there's more.

For (i), the rates of infection of other STDs have risen, but not for HIV infection(not the same as AIDS). Maybe it wasn't sexually transmitted, or even a virus at all?

For (ii), it has been at least 18 years since AIDS was first discovered. One would think that a virus capable of attacking any and all persons would have spread to the general population, but it hasn't. Instead, a large percentage of AIDS victims are still male homosexuals, a disproportionate number with regards to the population demographics. Even if we allow for HIV=AIDS, the HIV positive numbers are still heavily skewed in favor of homosexuals and drug users getting the disease, when a real STD virus would have attacked any and all targets it comes into contact with, regardless of sexual orientation.

Some dissidents have suggested that HIV tests, while not being able to detect for the mythical HIV, are accurate in that they can identify people at risk of getting immune deficiency, and thus AIDS. I still don't know how far to believe this line of thought, since the antibodies being detected don't really mean anything.

As for (iii), if a virus is being transmitted through needles and such, you would think isolating it would be a relatively simple task, eh? But there is no evidence to suggest that anything other than the usual mix of blood, toxins(from the drugs), and microorganisms in the needle, there is a specific virus that can cause AIDS.

More importantly, there are cases of AIDS without HIV being detected at all, which really suggests that there might be, even if the HIV hypothesis is accepted, other factors at work which can cause AIDS.

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Post by Darth Wong »

The_Nice_Guy wrote:For (i), the rates of infection of other STDs have risen, but not for HIV infection(not the same as AIDS). Maybe it wasn't sexually transmitted, or even a virus at all?
Then why is sexual transmission known to work?
For (ii), it has been at least 18 years since AIDS was first discovered. One would think that a virus capable of attacking any and all persons would have spread to the general population, but it hasn't. Instead, a large percentage of AIDS victims are still male homosexuals, a disproportionate number with regards to the population demographics.
One word: Africa.

Your theories and your attempt to pin the blame on the drugs used to TREAT AIDS (yes, everyone who has AIDS is taking the drug, therefore the drug causes AIDS :roll:) are not consistent with Africa, where the disease is running rampant through the straight community, among people who cannot even afford drugs like that.
Some dissidents have suggested that HIV tests, while not being able to detect for the mythical HIV, are accurate in that they can identify people at risk of getting immune deficiency, and thus AIDS. I still don't know how far to believe this line of thought, since the antibodies being detected don't really mean anything.
Please define AIDS (this is trickier than you may think).
As for (iii), if a virus is being transmitted through needles and such, you would think isolating it would be a relatively simple task, eh? But there is no evidence to suggest that anything other than the usual mix of blood, toxins(from the drugs), and microorganisms in the needle, there is a specific virus that can cause AIDS.
Then why did a man who injected his 11-month old son with HIV-tainted blood (don't ask; the motherfucker is currently serving a life sentence) cause his son to get AIDS? Coincidence?
More importantly, there are cases of AIDS without HIV being detected at all, which really suggests that there might be, even if the HIV hypothesis is accepted, other factors at work which can cause AIDS.
Or you are using an overly generalized definition of AIDS. There are more diseases than the common cold which can cause the sniffles; does this mean that the common cold does not cause the sniffles? Immunodeficiency problems are not unique to AIDS; there have been people who have suffered from immune system disorders since long before AIDS was identified. AIDS is a specific form of immunodeficiency disorder which is linked to the HIV virus. The existence of other immunodeficiency syndromes does not mean that HIV does not cause AIDS. Please re-examine the logic through which you arrived at your conclusions.
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