Where do atheists get their moral code?

[XPViking]

Firstly, I'm not sure if atheists here in this forum like to be called "atheists" due to possible negative connotations. So, as a group, how do you like to be called? Secular humanists?Or do each of you have your own particular term? I really don't know.

Secondly, how exactly do you all derive your moral code? Is it through life experience (very broad term here I realize)? Reading of certain books? Support groups? How?

I realize that some of you may have answered this question before in different threads. I'm just hoping to cosolidate it in one place for the moment.

XPViking

[TrailerParkJawa]

Im not sure what I want to be called. Secular humanist sounds odd, athiest feels like a label, I usually dont have any term for myself. I just dont spend anytime worrying about the existence of a higher power.

Where do I get my values. Lots of places. My parents when I was a child. My friends. Common sense is a big one. You do not need God to tell you that it is wrong to walk up to a cat and kick it across the room. Or to pull a dog by its tail down a flight of stairs. Thats just plain mean, and in the case of the dog possibly dangerous.


I would'nt want to steal someone's car. Not only do I not want to go to jail, I would not want someone to take my car. Think about all the hours they spent working to pay for it. Sure insurance might cover the cost, but thats besides the point.

I guess what I am saying is that many values are more inate than some people would admit. Also, dont forget that many of the ideas we hold true here in the US are based on our Consitution.

[Pablo Sanchez]

This rule as taught by Confucius is usually my moral compass.

"What you do not want to have done to you, do not do to others."

Simple empathy can usually tell you what to do; just reverse your situations.

[Darth Wong]

Firstly, I'm not sure if atheists here in this forum like to be called "atheists" due to possible negative connotations.

What negative connotations? Do people of Asian descent mind being referred to as people of Asian descent because of possible negative connotations? The only people who draw negative connotations from the word "atheist" are intolerant bigoted morons. Such "connotations" are of no import to any thinking human being, except as a method of evaluating the intelligence of those spouting them.

Secondly, how exactly do you all derive your moral code?

You are treading on thin ice. Why don't you ask where Buddhists get their morality? Why don't you ask where Taoists get their morality? Why don't you ask where Wiccans get their morality? Why don't you ask where shamanists get their moral code? Why don't you ask where Hindus get their morality? By asking where atheists get their morality, you are implying that atheists have something extra to prove in that regard.

Let me ask you a question: how do Christians derive their moral code? From the Bible, ie- the 3000 year old writings of dead white guys who thought it was righteous to execute people for swearing at their parents (Exodus 21:17 and Leviticus 20:9), worshipping other gods (Exodus 22:20), working on Sunday (Exodus 31:15 and Numbers 15:32-36), adultery (Leviticus 20:10), homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), prostitution (Leviticus 21:9), or blasphemy (Leviticus 24:13)? From Jesus, who instructed his followers that the God who issued the horrific instructions above (and many, many others) was righteous and holy?

No, Christians are moral if and only if they have learned to think for themselves (the same way atheists do), not to mindlessly follow rules laid down in some book. In fact, the more open-minded Christians will point out that by using parables (ie- analogies) to explain why he felt this way and that, Jesus was actually trying to show people how to do just that, rather than mindlessly following legalism.

The roots of morality are sympathy for your neighbour and a sense of fairness. Philosophers can argue all day about how to justify it, and some will construct vast, elaborate Rube Goldbergian philosophical contraptions in order to do so, but the elements of morality which are universal to all religions (or lack of religion) always come down to those two simple elements. Atheists recognize that just as everyone else does.

[Smiling Bandit]

You are treading on thin ice. Why don't you ask where Buddhists get their morality? Why don't you ask where Taoists get their morality? Why don't you ask where Wiccans get their morality? Why don't you ask where shamanists get their moral code? Why don't you ask where Hindus get their morality? By asking where atheists get their morality, you are implying that atheists have something extra to prove in that regard.

Wong, I'm only going to say this once, stuff it. You are a total ass. I sincerely hope in person you rpesent something closer to a respect for human dignity. I have ever seen anyone nearly so intolerant of opposing viewpoints as youself.

Now in this case, the poster asked a legitemate question. You imply an insult and then try to turn this thread into another Christian bashing one. Go to hell. No, don't go to hell, the Devil will be insulted at your presence. I have no freaking idea how anyone like you can attract and continue living with a mate, and I consider myself to be the biggest bastard I know.

[Nick]

This rule as taught by Confucius is usually my moral compass.

"What you do not want to have done to you, do not do to others."

Simple empathy can usually tell you what to do; just reverse your situations.

Yeah, the Golden Rule is definitely a big one. There's also the positive form:

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

The other major factor would be my own variant of "enlightened self-interest":
1. I wish to live a long and enjoyable life
2. I wish to allow my descendants the same opportunity.
3. I wish to cause no needless suffering

I believe the best way to achieve the first two things is to encourage a society which respects humanist values (since that grants me the most freedom to pursue enjoyment, with the least chance of others maliciously interfering with that enjoyment). And the best way to encourage that society is to try to respect humanist values myself.

As for the third, well I can't figure out a way to derive it from the other two (since it applies to more than just humans) - so I'm happy to make it one of my starting assumptions :>

Heaping abuse on persistently stupid people is just a way of coping with my frustration at their existence. As release valve's go, it's a pretty harmless one.

[Crazy_Vasey]

Upbringing plays the major part as it does with anyone, we inherit much of our morals from our parents.

[Stravo]

Let me ask you a question: how do Christians derive their moral code? From the Bible, ie- the 3000 year old writings of dead white guys who thought it was righteous to execute people for swearing at their parents (Exodus 21:17 and Leviticus 20:9), worshipping other gods (Exodus 22:20), working on Sunday (Exodus 31:15 and Numbers 15:32-36), adultery (Leviticus 20:10), homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), prostitution (Leviticus 21:9), or blasphemy (Leviticus 24:13)? From Jesus, who instructed his followers that the God who issued the horrific instructions above (and many, many others) was righteous and holy?

Actually Lord Wong, that would be dead SEMETIC guys...white guys didn't join in the freeforall until Paul went to Greece then Rome, quiet a ways down the road from the O.T.

[Nick]

Firstly, I'm not sure if atheists here in this forum like to be called "atheists" due to possible negative connotations.

What negative connotations? Do people of Asian descent mind being referred to as people of Asian descent because of possible negative connotations? The only people who draw negative connotations from the word "atheist" are intolerant bigoted morons. Such "connotations" are of no import to any thinking human being, except as a method of evaluating the intelligence of those spouting them.

True to a degree, but it wouldn't be the first time that members of a group started using a different term for themselves because years of abuse of a term by other groups had distorted its meaning significantly. Not everyone is as self-confident as you are, Mike (as nice as it would be if that was actually the case - no more trying to cope with fragile egos *sigh*)

Is it wrong that such things happen? Yes. But the fact that XPV asked the question reflects a sensible caution - there may quite well be people who feel uncomfortable with the term.

Secondly, how exactly do you all derive your moral code?

You are treading on thin ice. Why don't you ask where Buddhists get their morality? Why don't you ask where Taoists get their morality? Why don't you ask where Wiccans get their morality? Why don't you ask where shamanists get their moral code? Why don't you ask where Hindus get their morality? By asking where atheists get their morality, you are implying that atheists have something extra to prove in that regard.

Or, XPV is genuinely curious and would like to know the answer to the question. For mine, I think all of the questions you throw out above as examples of questions that would not get asked are actually legitimate questions that _do_ get asked when people are able to have discussions of the form "this is what I believe, and this is why I believe it". Noone is out to convert anyone - instead, it is just a bunch of people trying to figure out where the others are coming from. Conversations of this type are fairly rare - its tough to get a group of people who can both state their own beliefs and listen to the beliefs of others without at least one of them perceiving an attack.

Your debating style is rather . . . aggressive. Now, _could_ XPV's question have been meant the way you seemed to take it? Yeah, it could. But how about we extend the benefit of the doubt until we have reason to think we have a troll on our hands?

That being said, turnabout is fair play too, so: XPV, what forms the basis for your moral code?

[Mr Bean]

Wong comes from a long tradition of dealing with idiots thusly when setting up his website and then creating his Hate-Mail Pages he was exposed to idiotics over and over and over agian

Thusly he is over-critical and prone to, Gess not another self-centered egotisica idiot I must remove from the gene-pool to better man kind

I'm guessing its been awhile since somone asked Mr Wong and Honset question like why do Star's Twinkle and why do dogs smell when wet

[Darth Wong]

Wong, I'm only going to say this once, stuff it. You are a total ass. I sincerely hope in person you rpesent something closer to a respect for human dignity. I have ever seen anyone nearly so intolerant of opposing viewpoints as youself.

Replace "opposing" with "stupid or bigoted", and you'll get it right.

Now in this case, the poster asked a legitemate question. You imply an insult and then try to turn this thread into another Christian bashing one.

How so? I only asked where Christians are supposed to get their morality, since there appears to be no source of morality built into their belief system. It's an innocent question, right? Oops- it's Christian-bashing! Funny how it's only innocent when it comes from one side, eh?

Dump your self-righteous routine. Atheists are under constant attack by people who think that we have no morality. If you went and asked a black guy "how do black people learn respect for the law?", he'd want to beat the living shit out of you, and you would fucking deserve it. If XPViking didn't want to have his boomerang come back at him, he should have asked his question a lot more carefully than he did.

Go to hell. No, don't go to hell, the Devil will be insulted at your presence. I have no freaking idea how anyone like you can attract and continue living with a mate, and I consider myself to be the biggest bastard I know.

Ah, so I must be an asshole because I tolerate neither stupidity or bigotry? Here's a hint how someone like me finds and keeps a mate: I find someone who is neither bigoted or stupid.

[oberon]

I got mine from questioning everything, especially myself. That, and MTV.

[Galvatron]

Firstly, I'm not sure if atheists here in this forum like to be called "atheists" due to possible negative connotations. So, as a group, how do you like to be called? Secular humanists?Or do each of you have your own particular term? I really don't know.

That depends on the definition you go by. If you subscribe to the popular Christian definition of atheism as being "wicked and immoral," then the answer is yes. If you define atheism properly as being simply a "lack of belief in the existence of God or gods," I don't mind one bit.

Secondly, how exactly do you all derive your moral code? Is it through life experience (very broad term here I realize)? Reading of certain books? Support groups? How?

Instinct and rational thought. Naturally, some people are more moral than others, including Christians. No one race, creed, or religion has a total monopoly on immoral assholes.

[Smiling Bandit]

Wong, since you obviously feel anyone who isn't an Atheist is completely lacking in anything approaching humanity, is stupid, and (of course) a bigot, I kindly reply to you to shut to hell up.

I may be a bastard, but you, sir, would disgust a camels hindquarters.

Perhaps you didn't notice in your pathetic and mornic attack on the OP, but being black does not have any bearing on morals. Religion and lack thereof *DOES*. Hence religions, which have a great deal to say on the matter of morality.

Ah, so I must be an asshole because I tolerate neither stupidity or bigotry?

No, you are an asshole because you project stupidity and bigotry onto anyone who disagrees with you.

[oberon]

Smiling, you seem to be operating on a DARTH of information. I've corresponded with Wong before, and I have a feeling that I'm not the first Christian he's ever met or talked to, and you're wrong, simple as that. Religion does not imply morals--I operate on the same set of principals I came to in my twenties through experience and questioning, before I "got God", which for me was a very personal experience, involving facing mortality and comma splices, and not something I would proselytize about as emptily as you spoon-fed dogmatic hyperreligious bubbleheads do, ignoring the tenet that people will come to Christianity if and when they're frikkin' good and ready, and besides, just look at the Catholics these days. Or consider the aggressiveness with which the Muslims entered Europe back in the day, and the viciousness of the "Christian" response. Oops.

[Pablo Sanchez]

I got mine from questioning everything, especially myself. That, and MTV.

Ah, the Socratic method.

[Darik Sdair]

Firstly, I'm not sure if atheists here in this forum like to be called "atheists" due to possible negative connotations. So, as a group, how do you like to be called? Secular humanists?Or do each of you have your own particular term? I really don't know.

Secondly, how exactly do you all derive your moral code? Is it through life experience (very broad term here I realize)? Reading of certain books? Support groups? How?

I realize that some of you may have answered this question before in different threads. I'm just hoping to cosolidate it in one place for the moment.

XPViking

I'm perfectly happy with the term Atheist, though when I'm around people who I don't know or who I suspect aren't very ::cough:: open minded, I'll often use the euphamism "not particularly religious."

As for my moral code? Your first suggestion hit it right on the head - my moral code comes from a combination of indoctrination learned through the parents and in school and such during my childhood, then modified and adapted by my own life experience.

EDIT: Sweet, there's an edit button now! I wish this had popped up on one of the posts I really, uh, needed to edit.

[Darth Wong]

Wong, since you obviously feel anyone who isn't an Atheist is completely lacking in anything approaching humanity, is stupid, and (of course) a bigot, I kindly reply to you to shut to hell up.

Your use of such a pathetic strawman distortion is proof of your unwillingness to debate rationally. Find me one example in which I have ever said that nobody but atheists can be moral.

Perhaps you didn't notice in your pathetic and mornic attack on the OP, but being black does not have any bearing on morals. Religion and lack thereof *DOES*. Hence religions, which have a great deal to say on the matter of morality.

Wrong, asshole (but thanks for confirming my suspicion that you're a moron who hasn't been listening to anything I've been saying). Religion claims to have something to do with morals, but it doesn't; the variation in morality within any given religion is huge, moral religious people ultimately draw morality from sympathy and a sense of fairness like everyone else (as I said in my first post in this thread, which you ignored in favour of your asinine strawman), and the only "morality" in religion which strays outside that universal base has to do with perpetuating and enriching the religion itself, which is an ulterior motive masquerading as morality. Moreover, lack of religion does not even claim to have something to do with morals (it does not claim anything at all; it is a lack of claims).

No, you are an asshole because you project stupidity and bigotry onto anyone who disagrees with you.

Another strawman. I never call someone a bigot or a moron without providing a specific reason for that judgement. In your case, you have just provided one by trying to tie religion to morality (not to mention putting words in my mouth).

[Alyrium Denryle]

Upbringing plays the major part as it does with anyone, we inherit much of our morals from our parents.

Not me, if my ubringing had anything to do with my morals I would be a dirty little bigot like my father, He hates everyone that isnt white, male, straight, and southern babtist.

[Darth Wong]

Not me, if my ubringing had anything to do with my morals I would be a dirty little bigot like my father, He hates everyone that isnt white, male, straight, and southern babtist.

Holy shit, dude. You two must have had quite the falling-out when you told him about your sexual orientation. That must have been pretty uncomfortable.

[XPViking]

Sigh. The questions that I posed are of a truly inquiring nature, not some hidden agenda to bash anyone. Please drop your paranoia at the door.

What negative connotations? Do people of Asian descent mind being referred to as people of Asian descent because of possible negative connotations? The only people who draw negative connotations from the word "atheist" are intolerant bigoted morons. Such "connotations" are of no import to any thinking human being, except as a method of evaluating the intelligence of those spouting them. - Darth Wong

I see what you mean here but I'm trying to find a neutral term that atheists (seems to be okay to say this) can agree on. Look at it another way, and here I'll draw from my own experience. When I was working on a Native Canadian reserve for a year it was populated by Woodland Cree. So I asked my office mate, "Do you call yourselves Woodland Cree?" and he replied,"Aw, that's just what some white man called us." Then he said that calling his people Cree is just fine. He also did tell me what the Cree call themselve in the Cree language but I forgot it now.

You are treading on thin ice. Why don't you ask where Buddhists get their morality? Why don't you ask where Taoists get their morality? Why don't you ask where Wiccans get their morality? Why don't you ask where shamanists get their moral code? Why don't you ask where Hindus get their morality? By asking where atheists get their morality, you are implying that atheists have something extra to prove in that regard. - Darth Wong

Fair question don't you think to a Taoist, Buddhist, or whatever? Don't you wonder about such things? So where do you "get" it from? Life experience? Books? Interaction with other atheists? How? I think you, Mr. Wong, are reading in the word here "justify" in place of "get". In my dictionary, "get" is not synonymous with "justify".

Let me ask you a question: how do Christians derive their moral code? From the Bible, ie- the 3000 year old writings of dead white guys who thought it was righteous to execute people for swearing at their parents (Exodus 21:17 and Leviticus 20:9), worshipping other gods (Exodus 22:20), working on Sunday (Exodus 31:15 and Numbers 15:32-36), adultery (Leviticus 20:10), homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), prostitution (Leviticus 21:9), or blasphemy (Leviticus 24:13)? From Jesus, who instructed his followers that the God who issued the horrific instructions above (and many, many others) was righteous and holy? - Darth Wong

So some Christians derive their moral code from a certain interpretation of the Bible. I think in this category the Christian Fundametalists go here.

No, Christians are moral if and only if they have learned to think for themselves (the same way atheists do), not to mindlessly follow rules laid down in some book. In fact, the more open-minded Christians will point out that by using parables (ie- analogies) to explain why he felt this way and that, Jesus was actually trying to show people how to do just that, rather than mindlessly following legalism. - Darth Wong

Same as above really, except that here you might find the more moderate Christians. I do think the parables are a great teaching tool.

The roots of morality are sympathy for your neighbour and a sense of fairness. Philosophers can argue all day about how to justify it, and some will construct vast, elaborate Rube Goldbergian philosophical contraptions in order to do so, but the elements of morality which are universal to all religions (or lack of religion) always come down to those two simple elements. Atheists recognize that just as everyone else does.[ - Darth Wong

Thanks for answering my question. Did you "get" these morals through your life experience? Books? Interaction with other atheists? How?

I would like to ask some more questions. Once you (here I'm referring to atheists in general) have your moral code, can it change? Is it always changing? As well, are you accountable to anyone? What I'm trying to say here is that if you break your moral code in some way, do you submit yourself to the law of the land? Is that the highest form of "moral code" that there is? What do you do if there is a conflict between your moral code and the law of the land? Can one atheist feel that his moral code can override anothers? I would hazard to guess that the answer for the last question is no.

Thanks for your time. So far, it seems to be an interesting thread.

XPViking

[XPViking]

That being said, turnabout is fair play too, so: XPV, what forms the basis for your moral code? - Nick

Most certainly a fair question Nick.

Well, I guess I should paint a big red target on myself and put a "Kick Me" sign on my back. The Bible serves as a platform for my core moral beliefs, but I do like to ask the pastor lots of questions and reflect upon the words myself. In other words, I do believe that one must question what comes out of the pastor's mouth at every turn. However, I was "born again" when in my twenties but yet was following a moral code long before then. So certainly the influence of my parents, good friends, certain members of my family and life's general experience has served as a basis for my moral code. It seems that they mesh fairly well with certain aspects of Christianity but I admit to feeling uncomfortable with some parts of Scripture. I find the New Testament to be more in tune with my experience and upbringing.

XPViking

[LordShaithis]

The Bible serves as a platform for my core moral beliefs

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... ancy.shtml

Gentlemen...

Annhilate him.

[Mr Bean]

Heh XPViking No True not in jail yet Christian can say they base thier moral Code on the Old Testamete if you do they kinda lock you up for quadrible homicide, or genocide depending on how fast they catch you

Just to amuse myself I went to the mall today and brought a check list of things your supposed to be killed for by stoning or burning or what-not in the old testmate

After a mear twenty mintues of sitting in the food court my list based on observering other people and listening into conservations called for me not only to kill the people nearest me but to go on a Ax Murdering Ramapage so many where the violaters

And I wonder how many of those people would concider themselevs Christians

[John]

Assume I am NOT a bigot. Assume I am walking down the sidewalk, and bump into a black man. I say 'Watch where you're walking nigger." Am I 'just being rude' or something else? Does 'rudness' have anything to do with 'morality'?